2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
62 members (aphexdisklavier, benkeys, 1200s, akse0435, AlkansBookcase, Alex Hutor, AndyOnThePiano2, amc252, 11 invisible), 1,848 guests, and 265 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#2044592 03/07/13 05:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Talked with a colleague yesterday about this and wondering if anyone has some theories. I was working on an 80 y/o Canadian upright and there were about 25 sluggish hammers between the mid bichords and the central part of the keyboard. Upon closer inspection, it turned out that the sluggishness was due to the wippens center pins all drifed out to the right and dragging on the wippen beside it. The piano is not going to be kept much longer so i just quick fixed it with a flat blade pushing them back in place.

Anyways, this got me thinking. Why would they all shift out to the right and not haphazardly this way and that?

I'm thinking it might be that the CP's were snipped off with dull tool and mushroomed a bit on one side with factory production. Any other possibilities?


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,331
W
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,331
The angle of the strings?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
large humidity swings create center pins going on holidays in my experience (as the absence of tightening of the little plate on the vertical butts , of course)


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Originally Posted by Withindale
The angle of the strings?


The earth turns to the left……

Ok seriously I had the same thing once with those Japanese butts with the little metal plate and the flange attaches to the metal rail.

One drifted out and pushed directly onto the next one, then consecutively for about a half dozen flanges.

The mushrooming is a plausible explanation. Could be the whippens were loose and vibrating.

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,331
W
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,331
There must be a lateral force moving those pins to the right. If the hammer does not hit the strings entirely squarely then the forces at the flange will not be entirely square. There will be a component of force along the pin.

The hammers for those notes in many pianos are angled as are the strings so nothing is entirely square. The asymmetry is reasonably consistent.

Just a possibility.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted by Withindale
The angle of the strings?


The earth turns to the left……

Ok seriously I had the same thing once with those Japanese butts with the little metal plate and the flange attaches to the metal rail.

One drifted out and pushed directly onto the next one, then consecutively for about a half dozen flanges.

The mushrooming is a plausible explanation. Could be the whippens were loose and vibrating.


Hi Dan, all Renner butts have that little plate , here.

But for the whippens also, I noticed direct relation with humidity swings , never find that problem in normal moderate conditions.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,764
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,764
Just a guess...

Maybe the pins were all inserted from the right side during the manufacturing process?

Then, maybe they weren't all pushed in the whole way when the piano was manufactured?

Then, expansion and contraction of the hole in the jack over the years allowed the pins to become loose enough?


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
one side of the pin is "pre cut" and does not have the same termination than the other ( a little rounded because of the groove allowing the cut)
May be that is enough to generate a move with moisture change, the cloth swell and may be able to push a little more on that side than the other.

AT the same time, when humidity is high, the wood swell and the fit is less tight for the pin (I suppose)

The grooved side allows me to know what direction the pin was inserted originally

Last edited by Olek; 03/07/13 08:08 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
On the German Steinway parts, (Renner made) the center pins have a groove in the middle.

I wonder if this is not done to allow a better fixation of the center, the wood may swell in the groove and any lateral motion is avoided then.

Never find that groove on other parts

Last edited by Olek; 03/08/13 03:49 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Moderated by  Piano World, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Estonia 1990
by Iberia - 04/16/24 11:01 AM
Very Cheap Piano?
by Tweedpipe - 04/16/24 10:13 AM
Practical Meaning of SMP
by rneedle - 04/16/24 09:57 AM
Country style lessons
by Stephen_James - 04/16/24 06:04 AM
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,390
Posts3,349,248
Members111,632
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.