Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
138 registered (A Guy, ajames, accordeur, 36251, Alexander Borro, 38 invisible), 1648 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#2044733 - 03/07/13 07:43 PM "Don't try this at home."
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
I have a box of zinc oxide which I bought years ago from a supply house as "glue whiting." Of course,that is what I normally use it for. To give an example, there may be a loose ivory head where the cloth binder (ivory wafer) is still on the key, perhaps with a nick or two or a splintered spot. To glue it back without creating any dark spots, I would mix a bit the whiting into a brush load of hide glue. Apply the glue, clamp with a warm ivory clamp - just as you would clamp an ivory if you were actually using a new ivory wafer.

Well today I had the bright idea to do a quick repair by mixing the whiting with CA. I carefully prepared the surface, the ivory, and was planning to use a small scrap of action cloth as a "brush" of sorts. When the CA hit that Zinc Oxide, it literally smoked! The catalytic cure was so fast that I had to literally toss the action cloth out of the room. Needless to say I spent the next ten minutes getting the hardened lump off the key, removing the remnants of the old cloth binder layer, and using a traditional ivory wafer to do the repair.

This is one experiment that you should not try - it's not so hot, but is IS HOT!

You would think I would have run out of things not to try by now!
whome smokin
_________________________
Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#2044750 - 03/07/13 08:12 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Chemistry by trial and error is so much fun! grin
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#2044751 - 03/07/13 08:14 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21827
Loc: Oakland
This will make interesting small talk at the College of Chemistry's Dean's Dinner, coming up in a couple of weeks!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2044756 - 03/07/13 08:17 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Was the piano a Kaboomi? Possibly a Firerich?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2044791 - 03/07/13 09:27 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
CA glue smokes when it contacts cloth/wool. Btw, have you ever tried to light steel wool on fire?? Now THAT'S fun!!! smile
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2044802 - 03/07/13 09:48 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: beethoven986]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Come to think of it...

The real smoke WAS coming from the action cloth scrap.

HMMMMMmmmmmm... tiki

Perhaps the quick cure was from the heat of the reaction with the wool cloth, rather than a reaction to the zinc oxide itself. Either way, that was one hard lump of pigment to get off!
_________________________
Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration

Top
#2044842 - 03/08/13 12:10 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil

Perhaps the quick cure was from the heat of the reaction with the wool cloth, rather than a reaction to the zinc oxide itself. Either way, that was one hard lump of pigment to get off!


That would be my guess. It's happened to me before with trying to fashion a shoelace end on bushing cloth... I don't think anything dangerous will happen, but it is rather scary if you're not expecting it. And yes, it does get hot!
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2044844 - 03/08/13 12:15 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

Top
#2044865 - 03/08/13 01:33 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil
. . . I would mix a bit the whiting into a brush load of hide glue. Apply the glue, clamp with a warm ivory clamp - just as you would clamp an ivory if you were actually using a new ivory wafer.

Well today I had the bright idea to do a quick repair by mixing the whiting with CA.


For a "cooler" approach to whiting the surface under the ivories, use "TypeWite" correction fluid. It goes on nicely with its own applicator and does not interfere with the CA.

I like the experiment, though. I've actually had in mind to do a Journal article on "Blowtorch Piano Technology".
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2044876 - 03/08/13 02:57 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Why would you want to use CA under the ivory in first place .? It does not stay in time, and is a disater or future repair. Someone talk of mixing ca whith titanium oxyde to repair plastic keys so it something else that fumes


Edited by Olek (03/08/13 02:59 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2044914 - 03/08/13 05:47 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Münster, Germany
Once I tried zinc oxide with white wood glue but it does not work. The whitening effect is not so great and the glue won´t work as well as before. Titanium oxide seems to be better (I heard. Never tried it by myself). Using the right glue might be better. You can get it from Laukhuff:

http://www.laukhuff.de/orgelbau.laukhuff...-materials.html
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

Top
#2044947 - 03/08/13 08:41 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: Gregor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Once I tried zinc oxide with white wood glue but it does not work. The whitening effect is not so great and the glue won´t work as well as before. Titanium oxide seems to be better (I heard. Never tried it by myself). Using the right glue might be better. You can get it from Laukhuff:

http://www.laukhuff.de/orgelbau.laukhuff...-materials.html


as I understood it Titanium white and Zing oxyde are the same product..

indeed it is not whitening much some material, but works very well in hide glue.

I heard of mix with CA, but I wonder how much I will be deceived when I will try that new tip wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2044958 - 03/08/13 09:07 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
While both are white pigments, titanium oxide and zinc oxide are not the same compound.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2044963 - 03/08/13 09:22 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Ah thanks, I did not knew that . I use some in hide glue for ivories (and cannot understand why some are still messing with CA for that job, ivories are porous, thin, and need to be protected so they can be glued correctly later.

WHite PVA glue can be used, eventually, I have seen it thickened with a "charge" of white mineral powder so it is whitened more (if not it will be greiyish to yellowish)

I also suggest that the wood below the ivory need to expand and contract, and I am far from sure that any CA based gluing can allow that (that may be a reason why I have seen CA glueing of ivory fail after some time)

We rarely see wafers on the best pianos (ivories are thick then) anyway it was not the case before WWII.

I understand that the wafer may provide a supple joint between ivory and wood, so we dont see the ivory cracks that can be noticed sometime (rarely in my experienc)

They can be made with what we call "cheese cloth" and the white skin and bone glue... The "cloth" for medical use is probably OK as well.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2044972 - 03/08/13 09:43 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: Mark R.]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
While both are white pigments, titanium oxide and zinc oxide are not the same compound.


Imagine if the SR 71 or some of the Antonov cargo planes were made of zinc instead of titanium.

Top
#2045176 - 03/08/13 04:55 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I had a little nice Boeing in zing and it was a nice plane wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2045247 - 03/08/13 07:44 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 572
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil


Perhaps the quick cure was from the heat of the reaction with the wool cloth, rather than a reaction to the zinc oxide itself. Either way, that was one hard lump of pigment to get off!


I think you're correct..

_________________________
Personal Site: http://DulceLabs.com
Casio PX-5S Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Casio.Px5s/

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How Old should Bass Strings be Before You Replace Them?
by Paul678
11/28/14 11:03 AM
My Blüthner
by joe80
11/28/14 10:30 AM
What to teach before transferring to a jazz teacher
by hreichgott
11/28/14 10:06 AM
Neo-soul keys on Steinberg's half-price sale
by dire tonic
11/28/14 09:13 AM
Bob Marley - Is this love piano cover
by Danijelcro
11/28/14 07:28 AM
Forum Stats
77074 Members
42 Forums
159418 Topics
2341812 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission