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#2041003 - 02/28/13 07:55 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Ed,
This is interesting. I have informed the piano store I have as a client your info re mild well tunings and slow movers. Thank you smile

Bill,
I hadn't though of beat synchrony. I simply assumed it was a combination of the way the various partials lined up and maybe subtle changes in the way the bridges/soundboard system is loaded.I'm sure that Jason Kanter's analysis will be revealing. Thanks again smile

Emmery,
Just curious... If a client requested you to tune in a UT, say EBVT3 or 1/10 CM, would you refuse? Even if it meant losing that client?
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2041034 - 02/28/13 09:21 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: RonTuner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Quote:
Just a correction, "Beat Synchrony" was the term Robert Wendell came up with during email discussions with me and also Paul Bailey as we were using spreadsheets to create and analyze temperaments. I believe I was the first to point out and guess about the phenomenon of beat interactions between the M3/m3 in a triad... It's there in the pianotech archives somewhere! Jason got into it a bit later, if my memory is correct.


I am very glad to know about this, Ron! As far as I knew, "Beat Synchrony" was something Jason Kanter had come up with. You have to give Mr. Kanter credit, however on his amazing graphs, how he can put SO much information into one graph! The Beat synchrony idea, however, he had to put as an addendum.

As soon as I saw it, I thought that is well and good. That tells one little piece of the story. However, we all know that there is much more to music than Major triads, especially when Jazz is concerned!

That is one place where ET only enthusiasts will first assert their claims, as I have seen it often. Modern music, Jazz in particular, goes far beyond simply Major triads!

Therefore, in theory, all of that complexity seems to require ET, does it not? Who could argue with that except those among us who have many years of experience practicing something else?

I can't really explain how 1/9 Comma Meantone or the EBVT III actually works for Jazz much less how 1/7 Comma Meantone or virtually any other Well Temperament has. I just know it has and the artists liked it. I've even heard Blues and Avant-Garde artists "groove" on 1/4 Comma Meantone!

You have come up with some pretty neat looking graphs of your own in the past. Perhaps you might want to take a look at Beat Synchrony in more than just simple Major triads but minor triads and the kind of extensions actually found in Jazz among some of the very mild, nearly equal (but not quite) temperaments being discussed here.

When I finalized the EBVT with the EBVT III version, I figured I has "watered down" that idea to the ultimate dilution. Yet, I came up with an "Ultra Mild" WT later on, upon which you made a comment that you did not restrict yourself to half cent deviations.

All well and good. Anybody can keep dividing anything in half to infinity. I never really pursued things the way you, Paul Bailey or Jim Coleman did except with the Meantone idea. You can create virtually any gradation of Meantone temperament possible! (I know that Paul has his own favorite Meantone idea).

Joe seems to have liked the 1/10th Comma Meantone idea. It is really only a theoretical idea, one that Jean-Baptist Romieu proposed along with the 1/7, 1/8 and 1/9 ideas. I can't even do it on my ETD because it means that each 5th is narrowed by exactly 2.15 cents which means deviations from ET of multiples of exactly 0.15 cents. I can do 0.1 or 0.2 but not 0.15! Perhaps either one of those might have their own appealing properties?

It would be really interesting to find out what -2.15 cent 5ths does to both Major and minor triads and other possibilities. It could really turn out to be the coolest QET yet! Who knows?

In discussions I had with Owen Jorgensen, he agreed very much with the idea that we simply had to try these various ideas to find out which had merit and what those merits are.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2041038 - 02/28/13 09:26 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: RonTuner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Have a listen:

https://www.box.com/s/af88f16f9cea23c42e9c

major thirds range from 9.5 to 16.8 cents from a pure third. Remember that an ET third is 13.7 cents wide...

enjoy!

Ron Koval



Thanks for posting that, Ron. I just now saw it and am listening to it. It sounds like music to me.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2041077 - 02/28/13 10:36 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Quote:
Joe seems to have liked the 1/10th Comma Meantone idea. It is really only a theoretical idea, one that Jean-Baptist Romieu proposed along with the 1/7, 1/8 and 1/9 ideas. I can't even do it on my ETD because it means that each 5th is narrowed by exactly 2.15 cents which means deviations from ET of multiples of exactly 0.15 cents. I can do 0.1 or 0.2 but not 0.15! Perhaps either one of those might have their own appealing properties?

Bill, Ive been thinking abut this. There has to be some sort of hack or some other way around this. If I remember correctly, you are an Accutuner user.

The increments seem to be 0.05, like you said. I wonder if you set an offset for 0.1 when it should be 0.15, if you could maybe tune the note so the lights spin very slightly in one direct. Then, maybe set an offset for 2.0 and try to get the lights spinning in the other direction at an equivalent rate. If you experiment a few times, you should be able to find the point where the lights spin at the same rate in different directions at 0.1 and 0.2.

Since you are a very experienced piano tuner, once this speed is found and you get the sense of it (which won't take long), you should easily be able to know and remember what that speed is.

After, you work with rhythm when setting beats anyhow. You know what 3 bps is and what 7 bps is. This is just visual rather that aural.

Edit: I don't know if what I wrote above made sense. I meant to keep moving a note around until you find the point where the lights spin in opposite directions at the same rate. Then memorize that rate.

-Joe


Edited by daniokeeper (02/28/13 10:47 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2041635 - 03/01/13 11:08 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Just an update...

I used the 1/9 CM today. They loved it! smile
"It never sounded this good before!"
In fact, they even commented on how "warm and rich" the piano sounds now. (Petrof 5'3" 1994 baby grand piano)

I don't think they will ever go back to ET. They are interested in exploring other UTs as well. New converts!

Thanks Bill!
-Joe


Edited by daniokeeper (03/01/13 11:13 PM)
Edit Reason: Adding info re the piano
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2042491 - 03/03/13 06:44 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
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Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Interesting topic.....peaked my interest. smile I am in the process of tuning my other piano with the 1/9....so far, it sounds great. Will post a few recordings when I am finished tuning it.

Is this 1/9 a slightly different form of ET, or is it a mild WT-UT?

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#2042566 - 03/03/13 09:13 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Grandpianoman]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Interesting topic.....peaked my interest. smile I am in the process of tuning my other piano with the 1/9....so far, it sounds great. Will post a few recordings when I am finished tuning it.

Is this 1/9 a slightly different form of ET, or is it a mild WT-UT?


Neither. It's actually a modified meantone temperament. smile

Edit: As was pointed out earlier in this thread, ET could be considered a form of meantone... 1/11 comma meantone. smile

Edit: There is a nice little article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament


Edited by daniokeeper (03/03/13 10:01 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2042647 - 03/04/13 01:07 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Joe,

It is NOT a Modified Meantone Temperament. That is another class of temperaments entirely where the "wolf" 5th is divided among two or more 5ths rather than leaving just one untuned interval. It is all an attempt to mitigate some of the harsh side of the cycle of 5ths to make it more usable. This was done mostly with 1/4 and 1/5 Comma Meantone Temperaments.

Indeed, I used to tune the Rameau-Rousseau-Hall 18th Century Modified Meantone Temperament regularly back in 1991-1992. When I had the need for a Victorian style temperament in late 1992, there were not really any good aural instructions for one available, so I adapted the RRH MM temperament into what eventually became the EBVT III.

I have also seen the temperament that Peter Serkin likes called a "modified meantone" but it is not. It is the 1/7 comma meantone with one modification: there is a pure 5th between E & B. Therefore it is the 1/7 Comma Meantone, modified (or, the 1/7 CMT with one pure 5th, as I prefer to call it). In Jorgensen's first publication, there is a 1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament with two pure 5ths inserted.

For anyone who has not yet understood it, a "Meantone" Temperament is one where all 5ths are tempered alike and by the same amount. The fraction from which the temperament gets its name is whatever fraction of the Syntonic Comma (which has a value of 21.5) is chosen. All 5ths are narrowed by that amount. Therefore, the classic 1/4 Comma Meantone Temperament has 5ths that are each narrowed by 5.37 cents.

Narrowing 5ths by that much means that Major thirds (M3) become pure. Naturally, only 8 of them can be that way and it leaves the remainder painfully wide and unusable. It also leaves one 5th which cannot be reconciled extremely wide and dissonant.

If, on the other hand, you divide 21.5 by 11, you end up with virtually 2 cent narrow 5ths and that is the same as ET. The 1/7 CMT lies about mid way between 1/4 and 1/11.

The 1/9 CMT is a very mild one that has M3's that sound more or less like those of very mild WT's but it is not a WT. There are different rules for constructing a WT and no Meantone temperament, including 1/11th satisfies all of them.

Using the Meantone idea is simply another way to divide the scale based upon an entirely different concept from WT. It is possible (and very easy to program an ETD to do so), tune virtually any gradation of meantone conceivable. One does not have to limit oneself to fractions such as 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/7, 1/8, 1/9, 1/10 and 1/11.

The 1/9 Comma Meantone figures I published are really rounded off figures for 1/9 of 21.5. (21.5 divided by 9 is 2.38). It is really a 2.4 cent narrow 5ths Meantone, if you will. It may be easier to understand now that since ET has 2.0 cent narrow 5ths, 2.4 cent narrow 5ths are only slightly narrower, well within the margin of error that an aural tuner may create when tuning ET until other intervals are used as checks to correct such a small error.

If, for instance, someone tuned a reasonably perfect ET but accidentally made one random 5th 2.4 cents narrow, probably no one would really notice. However, as I have often pointed out what happens when there is an error that repeats itself over and over, there is a cumulative effect. Therefore, when ALL 5ths are narrowed by that extra seemingly small and insignificant amount, there is definitely an effect created. It is a very appealing one to many people. It puts just enough key color in the temperament to satisfy that desire but avoids the threshold of harshness that many people have.

It is virtually impossible to tune it accurately by ear. If one accepts that the calculated program of an ETD for ET is correct, then simply apply the 1/9 CMT figures to that and you have it.

Therefore, Grandpianoman, you can use the Verituner calculated program for either of your instruments and apply those figures OR, you can use Ari Isaacs' ET program for your M&H RBB and apply it to those figures. When I come again to your house in May, I plan to do an ET tuning of both of your instruments to which you can apply any temperament figures you desire.

Andy, the figures for the 1/9 CMT are on the Temperament Page 9 of your ETD. You may call me and ask me how to apply that to an FAC program if you need to.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2042653 - 03/04/13 01:50 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
I see. Thank you Bill for the clarification (and education). smile


If I could please impose to ask a question:
I've been thinking about trying a temperament between the 1/9th and the 1/10 CM. If I did a 1/9.5 CM, would the correct terminology be 2/19 CM?

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2042692 - 03/04/13 05:03 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Thanks for the info Bill and Joe. That would be great Bill....Ari's was the first time I tried to 'save' a live tuning on the Verituner...I don't think I did it correctly...as I went to tune it, it was not sounding right.

I just finished earlier this evening, the 1/9 Comma Meantone using your 12 offsets from this posting, into the Verituner, using the "clean" setting for smaller grands.

Nice sounding temperament. What you are hearing is a 1930 Weber "FR" 6ft Duo-Art Grand Piano. The Duo-Art has been totally rebuilt. The piano has Ari's Bass Strings, (about 7 years old now), a new set of his Candenza "S" hammers inc. new shanks, (not voiced yet), and a complete new Tokiwa action. The solid strings are at least 40 years old.

It also has the "Touchrail" from www.pitchlock.com This Weber really does a superb job with the accents, expression. The Touchrail has improved all of that, including the repetition. The Duo-Art cannot distinguish the downweight etc, so to have every key at exactly 52 grams, thanks in part to the Touchrail, is a major benefit.

One thing I should mention, even though the piano is 6ft long, the Duo-Art takes up about 7-8 inches, so the actual length of the piano is about 48 inches...a short piano!

These are about the closest 1920 'jazz' Fox-Trot rolls I could find on short notice....most of the rolls are still in boxes downstairs. I am sure I have more. laugh

"Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" played by Paulene Alpert, 1931 https://www.box.com/s/1izm2uslrpar85gzb8ma

"Steppin' In Society" Played by Edythe Baker, 1925 https://www.box.com/s/q6l1fzqgk9rivw7bu26t



Edited by Grandpianoman (03/04/13 05:46 AM)
Edit Reason: corrections

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#2042778 - 03/04/13 10:14 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
I see. Thank you Bill for the clarification (and education). smile


If I could please impose to ask a question:
I've been thinking about trying a temperament between the 1/9th and the 1/10 CM. If I did a 1/9.5 CM, would the correct terminology be 2/19 CM?

Thanks,
-Joe


Yes, Joe,

In fact, I think I have heard of that.

Here are two possibilities between 1/9 and 1/10 that you can try if you want. I never have. Since the SAT can only store 1/10th and not 1/100ths, a 0.1 increment is the smallest I can make.

I read your comment about programming and watching which way the lights would "spin". They would not "spin" at all! To get less than 0.1 cents difference would be next to impossible to read. If anything, the pattern would tend to "lean" slightly in one direction or the other.

-2.3 cent 5ths Meantone

C:+0.9
C#:-1.2
D:+0.3
D#:+1.8
E:-0.3
F:+1.2
F#:-0.9
G:+0.6
G#-1.5
A: 0.0
A#:+1.5
B:-0.6

Here is the closest I could get to the 1/10th Comma Meantone.
Each 5th is narrowed 0.05 more than the -0.15 of an exact 1/10th Comma. The largest deviation from ET is 1.0 cents.

-2.2 Cent 5ths Meantone

C:+0.6
C#:-0.8
D:+0.2
D#:+1.2
E:-0.2
F:+0.8
F#:-0.6
G:+0.4
G#-1.0
A: 0.0
A#:+1.0
B:-0.4
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2042790 - 03/04/13 10:33 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman


I just finished earlier this evening, the 1/9 Comma Meantone using your 12 offsets from this posting, into the Verituner, using the "clean" setting for smaller grands.

Nice sounding temperament. [snip]
These are about the closest 1920 'jazz' Fox-Trot rolls I could find on short notice....most of the rolls are still in boxes downstairs. I am sure I have more. laugh

"Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" played by Paulene Alpert, 1931 https://www.box.com/s/1izm2uslrpar85gzb8ma

"Steppin' In Society" Played by Edythe Baker, 1925 https://www.box.com/s/q6l1fzqgk9rivw7bu26t



Grandpianoman,

These sounded really great! (except for some underlying "hum" on the recording). Hearing past that, however, what I heard was a very smooth sounding piano.

What I have found to be interesting and ironic in recent years is that the "smoothest" perceived temperament (also called "even") was not ET but some kind of mild WT or as in this case, mild Meantone.

I believe it has to do with the fact that virtually all music we enjoy is tonal. It has some kind of relationship to the Cycle of 5ths. Therefore, when the temperament is a Cycle of 5ths based temperament, real music played on the piano as opposed to playing chromatic M3's sounds smoother, more like it should than it does in ET. ET is the temperament which alters and distorts music from what it should be, not the opposite which most people seem to believe.

The same goes for octave stretching. There is an optimum amount, neither too much nor too little that makes octaves be perceived the purest. That, of course is due to inharmonicity. When the exact and optimum compromise for inharmonicity is found, the octaves sound "pure" or "perfect" even though they are not and cannot be tuned perfectly pure in every sense.

Owen Jorgensen told me that the only way to find a temperament that really seems to work for whatever the goal may be is to try it and either accept or reject it. If you ask me, the 1/9th Comma Meantone fits the bill as a temperament useful for all music that may be played on the modern piano. It does no harm to early music as ET does and it restores a slight amount of key color to modern music that is lost when using ET.

I have used it for a long time, actually. I figured this out years ago and have written about it on here before, so it is interesting to me that only now has anyone seemed to take notice.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2042818 - 03/04/13 11:49 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6074
Loc: Rochester MN
Bill,

When you referenced "early music," I read that to mean pre-Baroque. Is that correct?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2042972 - 03/04/13 05:56 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Bill,

Thanks....it's a nice sounding temperament. When was this temperament invented?

The hum you mentioned, is a result of the motor on the Duo-Art. The hum might be accentuated by the pianos position in the room....it's right in the corner of this small room. I do think though, it is louder than the Ampico.

Here is another file I recorded yesterday.

"You Will Won't You".....(I think I will...lol) https://www.box.com/s/ywuqy2iorj674c977eoq

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#2043036 - 03/04/13 09:08 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Grandpianoman,

I love those audio files you posted. Thanks smile

Bill,

Sorry the idea for the SAT didn't work out. I never used an SAT (except once many years ago), so I was just guessing.

Thanks again for the additional meantone temperaments. It really hit me just how simple it is to create one. Starting at C, just work around the circle of 5ths narrowing each 5th by the same amount. A meantone temperament could even be created by merely narrowing each 5th by 0.001 cents. It wouldn't be very noticeable. But it would technically be a meantone, if I understand correctly.

Thanks again for all your generous help and knowledge smile

-Joe


Edited by daniokeeper (03/04/13 09:11 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2043066 - 03/04/13 10:03 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I've tuned UT's for 40 years and though I can tune the standard recipes, when they are not explicitly requested I proceed by shrinking 5ths as I see fit for the music to be performed.

With a printout of the circle of fifths diagram you can quickly see the consequences of shrinking the P5's on the M3's in theory, and while tuning you can listen to them and adjust the temperament as you like.

A possible analogy is between going to McDonalds for a burger, where you are guaranteed to get the same thing every time, or going to a burger place that allows you to design your own burger.

Kees

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#2043078 - 03/04/13 10:21 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: DoelKees]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I've tuned UT's for 40 years and though I can tune the standard recipes, when they are not explicitly requested I proceed by shrinking 5ths as I see fit for the music to be performed.

With a printout of the circle of fifths diagram you can quickly see the consequences of shrinking the P5's on the M3's in theory, and while tuning you can listen to them and adjust the temperament as you like.

A possible analogy is between going to McDonalds for a burger, where you are guaranteed to get the same thing every time, or going to a burger place that allows you to design your own burger.

Kees
[Emphasis added]


Interesting!

I wonder if...

1) There would ever be a time when you would expand the 5ths slightly, rather than narrow them.

2) Would this be called a Reverse Meantone, or an Inverted Meantone, or something else?
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2043328 - 03/05/13 11:37 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I've tuned UT's for 40 years and though I can tune the standard recipes, when they are not explicitly requested I proceed by shrinking 5ths as I see fit for the music to be performed.

With a printout of the circle of fifths diagram you can quickly see the consequences of shrinking the P5's on the M3's in theory, and while tuning you can listen to them and adjust the temperament as you like.

A possible analogy is between going to McDonalds for a burger, where you are guaranteed to get the same thing every time, or going to a burger place that allows you to design your own burger.

Kees
[Emphasis added]


Interesting!

I wonder if...

1) There would ever be a time when you would expand the 5ths slightly, rather than narrow them.

2) Would this be called a Reverse Meantone, or an Inverted Meantone, or something else?

Sure, it can happen that you shrink the fifths more than a comma (when added up). In that case some 5ths will have to be wide to make the circle close.
There is no specific name for such temperaments.
An extreme example is regular 1/4' meantone which has one wide fifth, the wolf. BUt there are plenty of tunings with only slightly wide 5ths that are perfectly usable. Rameau published a lot of these temperaments.

Kees
Regular 1/4' MT has a wide 5th.

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#2043341 - 03/05/13 12:04 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: DoelKees]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I've tuned UT's for 40 years and though I can tune the standard recipes, when they are not explicitly requested I proceed by shrinking 5ths as I see fit for the music to be performed.

With a printout of the circle of fifths diagram you can quickly see the consequences of shrinking the P5's on the M3's in theory, and while tuning you can listen to them and adjust the temperament as you like.

A possible analogy is between going to McDonalds for a burger, where you are guaranteed to get the same thing every time, or going to a burger place that allows you to design your own burger.

Kees
[Emphasis added]


Interesting!

I wonder if...

1) There would ever be a time when you would expand the 5ths slightly, rather than narrow them.

2) Would this be called a Reverse Meantone, or an Inverted Meantone, or something else?

Sure, it can happen that you shrink the fifths more than a comma (when added up). In that case some 5ths will have to be wide to make the circle close.
There is no specific name for such temperaments.
An extreme example is regular 1/4' meantone which has one wide fifth, the wolf. BUt there are plenty of tunings with only slightly wide 5ths that are perfectly usable. Rameau published a lot of these temperaments.

Kees
Regular 1/4' MT has a wide 5th.


Thank you, Kees.

-Joe smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2043368 - 03/05/13 01:09 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Bill,

When you referenced "early music," I read that to mean pre-Baroque. Is that correct?


Not really, Marty, sorry if I used the wrong term. To me, "early" music means Baroque such as Bach and Handel and Classical, such as Mozart and Haydn. I am sure that would raise he eyebrows of true early music enthusiasts but to me, it is all relative.

For the pre-Baroque music you refer to, it would seem to me that it would be best performed on a harpsichord or organ tuned in one of those very early historical temperaments.

What I really had in mind was the common practice of performing Bach and Mozart, for example on a 9 foot Steinway in ET. That is really altering the music from the way it sounded to those composers yet it is perfectly acceptable to do it today. What I am saying, for example is that a recital of music that spanned from Bach and Mozart, then Beethoven, Ravel and Rachmaninoff and then capping it off with some Messiaen and a piece by George Winston as an encore would all do quite nicely in 1/9 Comma Meantone.

The same would be true of the EBVT III or any of the other mild WT's that people have mentioned. It is all a matter of preference. A local colleague hosts recitals like that on a regular basis using exclusively the 1/7 Comma Meantone with one pure 5th.

In fact, here is the program to be performed March 23:

Debussy: Pagodes, La soirée dans Grenade, Jardin sous la pluie
Liszt: Liebestraum No.3, Spanish Rhapsody
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition

While this particular program doesn't have any Baroque or Classical era music, they often do. All music from any era of any style, including the Jazz concerts is performed on a concert grand tuned in 1/7 Comma Meantone with 1 pure 5th.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2043378 - 03/05/13 01:36 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6074
Loc: Rochester MN
Thanks Bill - I guess I misread your intention. What confused me was the application of a temperament to accomodate all keys rather than tuning to a single key as in pre-Baroque.

I have often wondered if J.S. Bach, when studying at Luneburg, would have encountered instruments in a well temperament or if they would have been in just intonation.

Enjoy the performance of Martin Kasik!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2043424 - 03/05/13 03:05 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper


Bill,

Thanks again for the additional meantone temperaments. It really hit me just how simple it is to create one. Starting at C, just work around the circle of 5ths narrowing each 5th by the same amount. A meantone temperament could even be created by merely narrowing each 5th by 0.001 cents. It wouldn't be very noticeable. But it would technically be a meantone, if I understand correctly.

-Joe


Yes, Joe.

Historically, all temperaments were started from the note, C but today, I give the A the 0.0 value.

Here is what you do, using the 1/9 Comma Meantone as an example. First, divide 21.5 by 9 to get the amount by which each 5th will be tempered. The result is 2.388 which I rounded off to 2.4 (but you can round it off to 2.39 if you want but I don't believe it will change the outcome significantly).

Since any ETD already has -2.0 5ths to start with, subtract 2.0 from the result, leaving the remainder of 0.4. This is the figure which will be compounded around the cycle of 5ths.

First, draw a diagram of the cycle of 5ths. Then, starting on A, put 0.0 by it. Then progressing clockwise, put -0.4 by the E, -0.8 by the B, -1.2 by the F#, -1.6 by the C# and -2.0 by the G#. Stop at G# because you don't tune the interval G#-D#. I have always called this the "Wolf Roadblock" (Caution, wolf habitat, do not enter!)

[The untuned ("wolf") interval can actually be left anywhere but most often, it is left between G# and D# and that is always where I leave it. Some early practitioners left it between C# and G#.]

Now, go back to the A and move counterclockwise and put +0.4 by the D, +0.8 by the G, +1.2 by the C, +1.6 by the F, +2.0 by the A# and finally, +2.4 by the D#.

Below the Cycle of 5ths diagram, list all of the notes chromatically, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B

Now from the diagram, transcribe each of the figures to the chromatic list. You will now have a list from which to program the ETD.

Below is a scanned image of the sketch I did as described above:



You see that between D# (+2.4) and G# (-2.0), there is a total difference of 4.4 cents. Subtract the -2.0 that is already built in and it leaves the 5th at +2.4 cents wide, exactly the same amount wide as of the other 5ths are narrow.

Therefore, it does not "beat" like the "wolf" 5th does in any stronger meantone but it is not perfectly pure either. When played alone, it sounds about the same as all the other 5ths.

Both the F#-A# and G#-C M3's add 3.2 cents to the already 14 cent wide M3. That makes them 17.2 cents wide, well within the threshold of tolerance that most people have for a M3.

The C-E M3 on the other hand is 2 cents less wide at 12 cents than the ET 14 cent M3. G-B and F-A are 1.6 cents less wide than ET. These amounts a very much like those of many very mild WT's.

I wrote to Jason Kanter again and he promised to get back to me later this week. Here is a list of the temperaments I asked him to graph:

Quote:
The 2.4 Cent Narrow 5th Meantone Temperament. It is interesting that the "wolf" 5th is exactly the same width wide as all other 5ths are narrow. If only 4ths & 5ths are played, it would hardly be distinguishable from ET yet the Major and minor thirds provide a very mild amount of key color. [This would not "pass" the PTG Tuning Exam as Equal Temperament but only barely so with a theoretical "score" of 78].

C: +1.2
C#: -1.6
D: +0.4
D#: +2.4
E: -0.4
F: +1.6
F#: -1.2
G: +0.8
G#: -2.0
A: 0.0
A#: +2.0
B: -0.8

***********************************************************

The Romieu 1/9 Comma Meantone Temperament (rounded to the nearest 100th cent). [This would not "pass" the PTG Tuning Exam as Equal Temperament with a theoretical "score" of 78].

C: +1.16
C#: -1.55
D: +0.39
D#: +2.33
E: -0.39
F: +1.55
F#: -1.16
G: +0.78
G#: -1.94
A: 0.0
A#: +1.94
B: -0.78

**************************************************************

Now, here are three more theoretical Ultra Mild Meantone Temperaments for which I simply used the figure, 0.3, 0.2 and 0.1 respectively, compounded around the Cycle of 5ths. These were suggested on Piano World Forums as possibilities.

Here is a list for a Meantone with 2.3 cent narrow 5ths. Note that the largest deviation is 1.8 cents. The "wolf" 5th is 1.3 cents wide. [This would "pass" the PTG Tuning Exam with a theoretical "score" of 85].

C: +0.9
C#: -1.2
D: +0.3
D#: +1.8
E: -0.3
F: +1.2
F#: -0.9
G: +0.6
G#: -1.5
A: 0.0
A#: +1.5
B: -0.6

*************************************************************

Still too much? Try a 2.2 cent Meantone. Note that the largest deviation is 1.2 cents. The "wolf" 5th is a mere 0.2 cents wide (virtually "pure"). The minimum width M3 is only 0.8 cents less wide than ET and the maximum width is 1 cent wider. [This would "pass" the PTG Tuning Exam as Equal Temperament, with a theoretical "score" of 100].

C: +0.6
C#: -0.8
D: +0.2
D#: +1.2
E: -0.2
F: +0.8
F#: -0.6
G: +0.4
G#: -1.0
A: 0.0
A#: +1.0
B: -0.4

*************************************************************


Still too much? Try the 2.1 cent Meantone. Note that the largest deviation is 0.6. The "wolf" 5th ends up being 0.9 cents narrow instead of any amount wide. The minim width M3 is 0.4 cents less narrow than ET. The maximum width is 0.8 cents wider than ET. [This would "pass" the PTG Tuning Exam as Equal Temperament, with a theoretical "score" of 100].

C: +0.3
C#: -0.4
D: +0.1
D#: +0.6
E: -0.1
F: +0.4
F#: -0.3
G: +0.2
G#: -0.5
A: 0.0
A#: 0.5
B: -0.4

**************************************************************

If you have an ETD that is programmable in hundredths, try the 1/10 Comma Meantone which is also a theoretical idea that Romieu pondered but for which tuning by ear would be virtually impossible. Note that the largest deviation is 0.40 cents. The "wolf" 5th is 1.25 cents narrow while the rest of the 5ths are 2.15 cents narrow. The minimum width M3 is 0.4 cents narrower than ET. The maximum width M3 is 0.6 wider than ET. [This would "pass" the PTG Tuning Exam as Equal Temperament, with a theoretical "score" of 100].

C: +0.25
C#: -0.30
D: +0.15
D#: +0.40
E: -0.15
F: +0.30
F#: -0.25
G: +0.20
G#: -0.35
A: 0.0
A#: +0.35
B: -0.20
**********************************************************


You will see in this list, the 1/9 Comma Meantone rounded to the nearest 1/100 cents which you could enter into your ETD if you want and hear for yourself whether it seems the same or not as the rounded off version.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2043445 - 03/05/13 03:44 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Hi Bill,

Thanks....it's a nice sounding temperament. When was this temperament invented?



I prefer to use the words, "designed", "conceived" or "discovered" rather than "invented" because the latter word belongs to a device of some kind. Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity but invented the lightning rod, for example.

Any conceivable temperament is already there, waiting to be discovered or designed or at least, imagined.

As Bill Garlick RPT, the one time instructor at the North Bennett Street School of Piano Technology and my instructor at the Steinway factory told me, "There is virtually nothing that anyone can do today with regards to temperament that has not already been done before."

Indeed, when I came up with my final draft of the EBVT, (the EBVT III), Owen Jorgensen wrote to me that Johann Georg Neidhardt had thought of virtually the same idea in 1724.

In 1992, Steve Fairchild RPT came up with an idea totally on his own and published it in the PTG Journal, only to have Owen Jorgensen point out that Antonio Francesco Vallotti had thought of the same exact idea in the 18th Century.

Jean-Baptiste Romieu wrote several theoretical ideas for temperaments starting about 1755. I don't know what possessed him to do it but really, if there were 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 and 1/6 Comma Meantone Temperaments, why not 1/7, 1/8, 1/9 and 1/10? (Duh!) All of those theoretical ideas are attributed to Romieu but any 8th grade kid with a calculator could do the same thing.

How anybody could have tuned them without an ETD is another matter!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2043449 - 03/05/13 03:58 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 455
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Bill, to enter those offsets into an ETD and start tuning could be misleading. The offsets are of similar magnitude to inharmonicity in the centre of a piano and should be added to any natural piano inharmonicity.

For example, if the offsets are entered into the Accutuner in "tune mode" then the theoretical frequencies will be expected and the temperament octave could be too compressed. If the offsets are entered and incorporated overlaying an FAC calculation then the pitches will be theoretically correct for the piano.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2043463 - 03/05/13 04:26 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Thanks Bill - I guess I misread your intention. What confused me was the application of a temperament to accomodate all keys rather than tuning to a single key as in pre-Baroque.

I have often wondered if J.S. Bach, when studying at Luneburg, would have encountered instruments in a well temperament or if they would have been in just intonation.

Enjoy the performance of Martin Kasik!


Perhaps if I would have said "earlier" music rather than "early" it would have been better. A lot of people still have the mindset that a piano tuned in anything but ET would somehow limit the kind of music that could be played on it or the key tonalities that would be useful.

It would be a better idea to think in terms of what temperament and octave stretching techniques can do for the character that any particular piano may have.

I would not care to speculate on on anything Bach may have encountered. Nobody really knows that but people have been suggesting their own theories for decades, if not centuries already.

One thing is certain, he never played on a 9 foot Steinway tuned in ET!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2043483 - 03/05/13 05:10 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Chris Leslie]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Bill, to enter those offsets into an ETD and start tuning could be misleading. The offsets are of similar magnitude to inharmonicity in the centre of a piano and should be added to any natural piano inharmonicity.

For example, if the offsets are entered into the Accutuner in "tune mode" then the theoretical frequencies will be expected and the temperament octave could be too compressed. If the offsets are entered and incorporated overlaying an FAC calculation then the pitches will be theoretically correct for the piano.


Chris,

Thank you for that observation that what I wrote could be misleading as it was presented. One can never assume what may seem to be obvious.

Any of these temperament figures or any others written anywhere are meant to be entered on a "Temperament" page in a programmable Electronic Tuning Device (ETD) which is designed to tune the modern piano.

The devices, as I am aware at this time would be (in alphabetical order because for the purposes here, all can be assumed to perform identically well):

Reyburn Cyber Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner III & IV
Tunelab
Verituner

Each of the above devices has the ability to calculate Equal Temperament (ET) for the modern piano while compensating for Inharmonicity, thereby mimicking the way an expert and professional piano technician would tune by ear.

Any of the non-equal temperament figures that may be found anywhere are theoretical figures based on zero inharmonicity. However, if these figures are applied to an electronically calculated ET by one of the above listed ETD's, the result will be a reasonably accurate interpretation of the desired temperament.

The owner's manual for each of the above devices must be consulted in order to learn how to apply these figures correctly. Technical support for each of them is generally available on just how to accomplish this.

No Strobe Tuner or Korg type device with a needle pointing to a zero mark or any other kind of display is suitable for piano tuning! While these types of devices may well be useful for tuning other types of instruments, they will fall far short of what is necessary to tune the modern piano of any type.

That being said, I believe it is possible to tune a harpsichord, fortepiano or organ using another kind of device or one of the above using no inharmonicity calculation. However, my expertise is limited to piano tuning and does not extend to any other kind of instrument.

This is a forum for professional piano technicians, not for amateurs or hobbyists, although their questions can often be accommodated. It is also not a forum for harpsichords, fortepianos or organs, although sometimes questions and issues do overlap and may, at times be addressed.

This entire discussion is intended for professional piano technicians who understand piano tuning in general and who already know how to operate their ETD's.

Questions and comments from people outside of those limitations are, of course, welcome.

I hope that covers it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2043602 - 03/05/13 09:28 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Bill,

Yes, I see the structure in 1/x CMs. It's so simple and so elegant! The constant can be derived from a fraction of the syntonic comma, or some other value.

Jason Kantor's graphs and analysis should be quite revealing. I wonder what patterns will reveal themselves in his graphs, especially when they are viewed as a progression of the various Meantone Temperaments. Perhaps a new variant will suggest itself.

Bill, you have made some absolutely awesome posts on this thread.

Thank you ! smile
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2044816 - 03/07/13 10:23 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Here is another example of this 1/9 Comma Meantone on my 1930 Weber Duo-Art....listen to the opening "bell" chords. The more I listen to this temperament, the more I like it.

Face the Music and Dance Medley from April, 1932 by Irving Berlin https://www.box.com/s/q6hcwvjwu8rfldkodqi9


Edited by Grandpianoman (03/07/13 10:40 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#2045344 - 03/09/13 02:03 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Grandpianoman]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Here is another example of this 1/9 Comma Meantone on my 1930 Weber Duo-Art....listen to the opening "bell" chords. The more I listen to this temperament, the more I like it.

Face the Music and Dance Medley from April, 1932 by Irving Berlin https://www.box.com/s/q6hcwvjwu8rfldkodqi9


I just love this! I hope you don't mind, but I have taken the liberty of forwarding your link to the same customers that I just tuned the 1/9 CM for. I know they will love it! smile

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2045380 - 03/09/13 06:28 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Joe,

Not at all, glad to help out.

Here are a few classical pieces...and what was called in the 1920's..."Dinner Music"....I wonder what kind of food they ate when listening to this. smile One of the songs is "When smoke gets in your eyes"...great tune. the roll is actually quite beautiful...the tuning went a bit south, but it still sounds good...I agree, this 1/9 comma meantone is very nice. The hum in the background is the Duo Art motor working away. Sometimes, people would house the motor in another room, and run the tubing to the piano.


--DINNER MUSIC NO. 3-- Played by Frank Milne-- October 1934- #74848.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/xrmxqktosm6gdhqvuju7

--WALDESRAUSCHEN-- by Franz Liszt- Played by Josef Hofmann - mp3
https://www.box.com/s/3lh5j0c3pzmzo5yn9h8b

--SPINNING SONG-- Op67, No.4 by Mendelssohn-Bartholdy- Played by IGNACE JAN PADEREWSKI--#6569-4.mp3
https://www.box.com/s/c8d6xzhbrkdw3na00gar

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