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#2044949 - 03/08/13 08:44 AM Mixed Size Powered Speaker
willf Offline
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Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 95
Loc: UK
very shortly I shall be buying some powered speakers - I am still deciding which ones to buy. I will be mainly using them for piano, but also for organ (VB3).

Does it make any sense to use a 12" for the Left Output (Bass) and a 10" for the right output? Or is it better to use the same sized speaker?
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#2044950 - 03/08/13 08:45 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Not only the same size but the same model
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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2045780 - 03/10/13 04:19 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: Dr Popper]
willf Offline
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Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 95
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Not only the same size but the same model


Thanks for your response. Can you explain why (simply)?
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#2045789 - 03/10/13 04:53 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Interesting question - if it is stated on the very naive level, Dr.Popper's answer is probably the most appropriate answer.

But if it is stated on the (semi-)professional level, I don't know the right answer - just very curious too.

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#2045840 - 03/10/13 10:02 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: willf
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Not only the same size but the same model


Thanks for your response. Can you explain why (simply)?


Because you want your left and right channels to be complementary .... It's a no brainer really
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2045877 - 03/10/13 11:18 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: Dr Popper]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Is there really no room left for user experiements and engineering?

As I can see, BuiltIn boxes are symmetrically arenged in DPs too,
do they have to be so indeed? One could very conceivably with a bigger bass speaker to the left perhaps mimic a little reality and spare a sub...

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#2045888 - 03/10/13 11:41 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
anotherscott Online   content
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3195
Originally Posted By: willf
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Not only the same size but the same model


Thanks for your response. Can you explain why (simply)?


A stereo sound is an illusion created by speakers to your left and right. The reason I call it an illusion is that, with a proper stereo setup, sound doesn't appear to come out of the two speakers, but rather, at various points in between them. For that illusion to sound most realistic and the sound to be most natural, the two speakers should be as similar as possible in their frequency response. The simplest way to avoid different sounding speakers is obviously to simply use the same speakers.

Getting back to the issue of size alone, you talked about using different size speakers, presumably because a typical DP has more bass on one side than the other. But it's not like the notes in the bottom third of the keyboard come exclusively from one side. Also, you mentioned using the speakers for organ, where the stereo effect is usually based on recreating the moving sound of the rotary speaker, where there is no such left-right low-high split to begin with... the full range of sound comes out of both sides.

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#2045923 - 03/10/13 12:46 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
emenelton Offline
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Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 468
The question is for live or studio/home.
If it's for live and you have a separate bass channel, than by all means, consider different speakers. But typically people do used matched pairs live and always for studio/control room mixing and tracking work. In a mixing environment it's all about getting what you hear out of your studio speakers to translate really well to everyone else's speaker system.

Live, if you run a mono bass out and need to present that solidly, some players do run multiple amp/speaker rigs. Don't count on being your Roadies favorite person though!

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#2045938 - 03/10/13 01:23 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: emenelton]
anotherscott Online   content
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Registered: 02/20/10
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Originally Posted By: emenelton
Live, if you run a mono bass out and need to present that solidly, some players do run multiple amp/speaker rigs.

Yes. Different speakers for different sounds is a completely different application than deciding between using matched or non-matched speakers for the stereo presentation of a single sound, which is what I was talking about above. My own rig is often closer to what you're describing, though. I don't care about stereo when I gig. I play most of my sound mono through a ZXa1, but on my LH bass gigs, I often send the "bass guitar" sound out separately to a bass amp.

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#2046246 - 03/10/13 11:09 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
emenelton Offline
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Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 468
I have no experience running a bass line for keys. I would think a12" would be a lot better for bass than a 10".

It sounds like you would have a better handle on that Mr. Anothr'. What do you think if in fact the OP is looking for a live setup like that?

12" or 10"?

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#2046277 - 03/11/13 12:08 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Keep in mind that speakers can have very different coverage patterns when you cross brands or sizes. For example, with the QSC K-Series speakers, your coverage pattern changes depending on if you get the 8", 10" or 12". You really wouldn't want to mismatch these. Personally, I'd get a moderately-sized matched set and add a subwoofer.

Surely there is always room for experimentation, but in this case errors can be expensive and/or headache-inducing!


Edited by LesCharles73 (03/11/13 12:13 AM)
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#2046343 - 03/11/13 04:35 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: anotherscott]
willf Offline
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Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 95
Loc: UK
Thanks, that I can follow.
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#2046344 - 03/11/13 04:40 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: LesCharles73]
willf Offline
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Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 95
Loc: UK
Thanks, I had not considered coverage/dispersion.
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#2046686 - 03/11/13 09:45 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: Temperament]
Wess. Chr. K. Offline
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Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 37
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: Temperament

As I can see, BuiltIn boxes are symmetrically arenged in DPs too,
do they have to be so indeed? One could very conceivably with a bigger bass speaker to the left perhaps mimic a little reality and spare a sub...


That is right.
Yamaha AG N1 has 2 separated systems of speakers. First one is placed on top part (where keyboard is). 3 loudspeakers on top and 2 on rear side. They are symmetrical, indeed.

Bottom part of the piano has an other sound box with 2 loudspeakers.
The direction of the biggest one is to the floor. It is placed left from the pedals. The center is somewhere between C and E one octave below middle C.
The other one is faced to the player. Its position is right form the pedals and it is centered almost under C5 (~two octaves over middle C).

This is only the sound system of the AG N1.
Kawai xx95 has also asymmetrical set up.

Talking about stereo monitors, they must be the same as all colleagues suggest.
Two 8" are sufficiently enough for piano(s). Virtually, the lowest frequency of the piano is 27.5 Hz. If we accept that it is a sinus wave. But is not!

I use Genelec active near field monitors 8030 (+ some letters behind) placed on top of AG N1.
When I mixed both (Yamaha N1) + Genelec monitors the sound became very noble and rich.
I tried also the combination with sub woofer – it boosted the bass too much and personally I think, that there is no need of it. I switch it ON only when I am scoring music for movies, but never when I play Bach, Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven etc or practicing with my little son.

Talking about organs – I have a friend of mine who plays baroque and romantic music with VST sampler and his set up is pure surround 5+1 from Genelec.


Edited by Wess. Chr. K. (03/11/13 09:46 PM)
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#2046690 - 03/11/13 09:47 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
ahhsmurf Offline
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Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 48
Loc: Banned
I'd get a moderately-sized matched set and add a subwoofer.

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#2046761 - 03/12/13 12:17 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
A pair of Yamaha HS80m monitor speakers arrived at my door today. I ordered them specifically to get the best out of the Nord Piano in my studio. The Nord is somewhat unforgiving of poor or low-end amplification.

As far as I can tell from a brief listen, the bass response is fine without needing to resort to a sub, although that option is available. The HS80's response above about 70hz is supposedly fairly flat, which makes them pretty much ideal for piano - and they are well able to handle the transients and spikes. The lack of "coloration" means that you get to hear every subtle nuance - good or bad - within the samples.

Setting them up behind the Nord and facing me, with the tweeters at ear level gives me a good audio perspective, although the lack of other downward-pointing or knee-level speakers prevents it from being the kind of immersive experience that could fool you into thinking you were sitting at an acoustic instrument. However, with just two speakers, I would not want an unmatched pair, as you would lose the true stereo field created by the equal dispersion and matched amp power (mentioned in a post above).
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#2050940 - 03/19/13 03:49 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 316
Loc: Reading, UK
Do powered speakers tend to come as single speakers?
I have a cheap PA system with an amp and two speaker cabinets, so each cabinet has a 12" a tweeter and two smaller speakers. ie: four actual speakers on each side, contained in one box on each side.

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#2050948 - 03/19/13 04:03 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: Dr Popper]
willf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 95
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: willf
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Not only the same size but the same model


Thanks for your response. Can you explain why (simply)?


Because you want your left and right channels to be complementary .... It's a no brainer really


Why would different size speakers make the left and right channels not to be complementary?
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willf

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#2051199 - 03/20/13 06:03 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: willf
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: willf
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Not only the same size but the same model


Thanks for your response. Can you explain why (simply)?


Because you want your left and right channels to be complementary .... It's a no brainer really


Why would different size speakers make the left and right channels not to be complementary?


Ok it's obvious that I'm dealing with the lowest common denominator here .. So here goes
They would be different in response, sound, coverage and volume range ... So in every practical aspect.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2051212 - 03/20/13 07:20 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1674
Loc: Portugal
This conversation is most entertaining. Reminds me of the time (c.1969) when we were too poor for stereo but my brother rigged up what he called 'simulated stereo'. This was (left) a valve radio in walnut with the tone control fully up. (right) A Sinclair ic12 amplifier going through crossover capacitors to roll off the treble. Worked a treat. We used to sit listening to 'You Can't always get what You want' through it.
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Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2051239 - 03/20/13 09:09 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: Dr Popper]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 468
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper


They would be different in response, sound, coverage and volume range ...


First off, I am being the devils advocate, so my apologies to the Dr. because I actually do agree with his 'point of view' .....

The quote above is actually a definition of complimentary; two different things that fill in the gaps the other doesn't.

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#2051609 - 03/20/13 10:01 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: emenelton]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: emenelton
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper


They would be different in response, sound, coverage and volume range ...


First off, I am being the devils advocate, so my apologies to the Dr. because I actually do agree with his 'point of view' .....

The quote above is actually a definition of complimentary; two different things that fill in the gaps the other doesn't.


Rubbish ..... cursing.... without the left handing knowing what the right hand is doing it would be totally screwed. Try it .... It will sound cursing
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2051622 - 03/20/13 10:25 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
ahhsmurf Offline
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Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 48
Loc: Banned
I would not want an unmatched pair, as you would lose the true stereo field created by the equal dispersion and matched amp power

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#2051635 - 03/20/13 10:56 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1837
Loc: Pennsylvania
I wouldn't buy an unmatched pair for the same reason I do not buy an unmatched pair of tires for my car. It just never occurred to me.




Edited by dmd (03/20/13 10:57 PM)
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2051660 - 03/20/13 11:53 PM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 468
mono speaker optimized for bass another mono speaker for your other sound

In rehearsal the other day I used a Hartke 10" kick back on the right and a Dean Markley combo on the left. A little eq and volume adjustment and the wurly/integra was real nice. It's not brain surgery.

I was just trying to expand on the complementary thing. Nobody ever says that the same thing is complementary. complementary things are always different from each other.


Edited by emenelton (03/21/13 07:48 AM)
Edit Reason: wrong word spelled

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#2051700 - 03/21/13 01:38 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: emenelton]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1674
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: emenelton

I was just trying to expand on the complimentary thing. Nobody ever says that the same thing is complimentary. Complimentary things are always different from each other.

Not always.
First, the way you've written it there: 'complimentary', means saying something nice to someone...paying them a compliment.

I think you meant 'complementary', which, according to the dictionary means:-

Originally Posted By: World English Dictionary
complementary or complemental (ˌkɒmplɪˈmɛntərɪ, -trɪ) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— adj
1. acting as or forming a complement; completing
2. forming a satisfactory or balanced whole


....as Dr. Popper said in the first place.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2051782 - 03/21/13 07:46 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 468
toddy

1. acting as or forming a complement; completing
2. forming a satisfactory or balanced whole

So a 12" 2-way on the left would complement a 10" 2-way on the right by adding bass the other didn't, thereby forming a more satisfactory and balanced sound.

Thanks!

I changed the spelling on the original post

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#2051787 - 03/21/13 07:56 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1195
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: willf
very shortly I shall be buying some powered speakers - I am still deciding which ones to buy. I will be mainly using them for piano, but also for organ (VB3).

Does it make any sense to use a 12" for the Left Output (Bass) and a 10" for the right output? Or is it better to use the same sized speaker?


For several reasons, you should buy a pair of identical speakers.
And don't go overboard with "stereo". A real piano is not 10 feet wide, and you get no particular sensation of bass notes coming from the left, treble ones from the right. Do you? Some electronic piano makers do not grasp this fact, and over-emphasise the seperation. Don't make it worse by positioning your speakers too far apart!

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#2051791 - 03/21/13 08:08 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: willf]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 468
I agree with Exalted Wombat.

Sometimes these threads go down a road that's filled with intrigue and B.S. I was just trying to discuss things.


Edited by emenelton (03/21/13 08:10 AM)

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#2051825 - 03/21/13 09:43 AM Re: Mixed Size Powered Speaker [Re: Exalted Wombat]
R Jay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/12
Posts: 20
Originally Posted By: Exalted Wombat
and you get no particular sensation of bass notes coming from the left, treble ones from the right. Do you?


I would argue that you do as a player. When I play my acoustic it is very clear to me, lower notes to the left, higher notes to the right. For this reason I find a stereo monitor set up preferable on a gig.
Further away from the instrument the stereo effect is less. In fact it would be the opposite if you were situated very close to the other end facing the player. For me the issue of stereo is primarily for me, to enhance the playing experience.
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