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#2045043 - 03/08/13 12:17 PM Teaching Order for Scales
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
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Loc: Orange County, CA
In what order do you teach the scales? Any particular groupings of scales to teach first? Last?

Also, in addition to parallel ascending and descending scales, do you teach other scales, like contrary motion scales, scales in 6th and 10th, and modes?
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#2045050 - 03/08/13 12:35 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4801
Loc: South Florida
Right now I teach the C scale first, always two octaves, middle of the piano. Never one octave, NEVER. I cover in detail the idea of groups of three and fours, the idea that the 5th finger is only used as the "terminoator", the note that ends the scale when it stops on the tonic, also the first when it starts inward in either hand on the tonic.

But the moment that works, I go directly to B, Db and Gb. I am a fanatic about reading everything, but for that one thing I teach 100% by rote. I figure I am so far out in front of what is being played that by the time we hit those scales in music, they will be instantly readable - and they are.

Then I move to G major. At that point I start to move in both directions, E major next as a scale that uses only 4 of the black keys, and D which uses two. Finally A.

So that covers C D E G A B Db Gb, 9 of them. At any time I might teach F. I'm not sure of when I prefer to go over that because it sort of throws a monkey wrench in the "5 plus 3" pattern of the other "white scales. Ab is small problem because the logic is like the C scale, thumbs only meeting once per octave. Even though I want all 12 scales for 2 octaves and then for 4 octaves separately, the RH maintains the same position as the scales with all black keys, the 2nd finger merely moving to G natural, but the LH compeltely changes logic, with the dependable 12 on Db and Eb changing to 4 and 3.

Bb and Eb I have to teach separately, as separate patterns.

I am not "married" to this order, but I do have great success with he all black note scales. I find my students, even the young ones, learn them in almost zero time, because they are so logical, and so natural for the hands.
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#2045053 - 03/08/13 12:40 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

Also, in addition to parallel ascending and descending scales, do you teach other scales, like contrary motion scales, scales in 6th and 10th, and modes?

I forgot to answer that part.

In general no. And I often feel that I am skipping something important, but with my time constraints it's all about first things first. If I had more time, or if I had a LOT more time with some students who are at the level that yours are probably at, I'd want to address those issues. But in the music I teach we seem to spend so much more time on LH or RH passage work, with more chordal things going on in the other hand (so common in Chopin, for instance, jazz also), that it is not a priority. Usually when complicated patterns happen in both hands, it is in Bach or something like that where the patterns may be diatonic but they are not scales, and those kinds of problems seem to dominate. Just think of the F major 2-part invention, or the Eb, or the A minor. In the A minor the problems become arpeggiated figures rather than scales. And so on...
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#2045076 - 03/08/13 01:47 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I go directly to B, Db and Gb. I am a fanatic about reading everything, but for that one thing I teach 100% by rote.

I do that, too!

The rest of your order makes sense. I tend to teach F Major a bit earlier.

What about minor scales? Any particular order among natural, harmonic, and melodic? I think ideally all three should be taught at the same time, but for some reason CM splits them in strange pairings from levels 2 through 9.
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#2045105 - 03/08/13 02:47 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
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Loc: New York City
I'm not a teaching professional, but it seems like it would be logical to teach natural minor first (because it uses the same notes as the relative major), then harmonic minor and wait till later for melodic.
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#2045141 - 03/08/13 03:42 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Barb860 Offline
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Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 1646
Loc: northern California
My students have a Circle of 5ths which we use to check off scales as they learn them. We start with C major, then go to G, then to F, adding one or 2 scales per week depending on how the student is doing. 2 octaves, first hands separately then HT, parallel motion. Depending on the age and progress of the beginning student, he will learn all 3 types of minor scales at the same time.
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#2045159 - 03/08/13 04:12 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: Barb860]
Goof Offline
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Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 357
Loc: UK
The circle of fiths did it for me, sixty years ago.
But my very pleasant lady teachers never explained tones and semi-tones and how they go to make up the various scales, and they did not tell me to listen to the sounds of the different scales.
I would say that the sound of what ever is to be played is the most important basis for any learning, be it scale or tune. Later the more difficult topic of time can be taken on booard.

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#2045332 - 03/09/13 01:19 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5261
Loc: Europe
Circle of fifths here as well...

And yes:

* contrary motion
* 10ths (and 3rds)
* 6ths
* chromatic
* arpeggios, with the tonal, 1st and 2nd invertion, dominant with a 7th, VII7th
* chords

That's for more advanced students of course... And that's what I did when I was rather advanced...

I do offer some insights into modes and stuff (especially octatonic stuff, wholetone etc... which are more fun to explain), and the students seem to dig them...
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#2045346 - 03/09/13 02:14 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: Gary D.]
musicpassion Offline
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Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 973
Loc: California, USA
When do you move to more than two octaves?
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#2045383 - 03/09/13 06:38 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: musicpassion]
Goof Offline
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Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 357
Loc: UK
eek Soooo! easy even for very young. As soon as they understand and can perform thumb-under/third over then they must see that the common sense is: - thumb-under after 4th if one wants to go two octaves.

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#2045440 - 03/09/13 09:40 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: musicpassion]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: musicpassion
When do you move to more than two octaves?
I think it depends on the student. Some students can do more than two octaves on the first try. Others will take several years. According to the CM Syllabus, 3-octave scales are required at Level 4. Kids can get there in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 years of lessons.
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#2045493 - 03/09/13 12:37 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
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Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Piano Guild has an "old fashion" order, which most of us use, because that's the requirements. I'm not particularly fond of the order and before I started my students on the Guild program, presented scales similar to Gary's approach.

White key majors, followed by white key harmonic minors. Both just one octave (why on earth? I teach two anyway.)

The black key majors, 2 octaves, followed by black key harmonic minors, also 2 octaves.

This is through the elementary levels, no tempo requirements at all. Just the correct notes.

Beginning with the Intermediate levels, tempos are required. mm=60, quarter notes; mm=72, eighth notes; mm=60, triplets;, then mm=72 followed by mm=80. Add melodic and natural minors as well.

At the lower advanced levels, transition to sixteenth notes at mm=72.

It isn't until the last of the high school levels that they require contrary motion scales.

There is no requirement, which I can see, for 3rds, 6ths, etc. but the tempos do increase incrementally to mm=132 in the college levels.
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#2045519 - 03/09/13 02:11 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
I did a scale challenge project with my studio last summer with fabulous results. The goal for the end of the summer was for all the students level 3 and up to have at least one scale, HT, 4 octaves in 16ths with a minimum tempo of quarter = 60.

All of them met the goal, most exceeded it both in tempo and number of scales. I let the students choose which scales they wanted to do.

I use California Certificate of Merit as a guideline, but I almost never start with C major. I usually start with Db, F# and B because they are the easiest fingerings to coordinate and make putting the thumb under simple. Once they have learned these three, I work backwards through the sharp side of the circle (E, A, D, G, then C). Then I start working the flat side of the circle with F, Bb, Eb, Ab.

The minors are a little more random. I usually teach them from the parallel minor viewpoint, but not always.
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#2045614 - 03/09/13 06:06 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: John v.d.Brook]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
At the lower advanced levels, transition to sixteenth notes at mm=72.

That's a bit on the slow end, don't you think?

The teacher who made me play all the scales just went with whatever the order the scales were in Hanon. I learned nothing. I wasn't even very good at following the fingering.
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#2045848 - 03/10/13 10:24 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
At the lower advanced levels, transition to sixteenth notes at mm=72.

That's a bit on the slow end, don't you think?

The teacher who made me play all the scales just went with whatever the order the scales were in Hanon. I learned nothing. I wasn't even very good at following the fingering.

Yes, but it quickly moves up to mm=120. Which is still quite leisurely, IMO, but remember, 95% of American teachers cannot play, let along teach, scales to any extent.
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#2045855 - 03/10/13 10:39 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
And you know this how?
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#2045879 - 03/10/13 11:21 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Why teach scales?

For me it's so a student knows the sharps and flats of the key in their fingertips, and can therefore play in those keys. So they learn C, one sharp, one flat, etc. Plus the relative minors. While I might explain about the different minors, I find this leads mostly to confusion, and more is gained by having them play just harmonic until they are dissatisfied with this.
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#2045898 - 03/10/13 11:54 AM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1352
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
B and Db major first. I teach by chunking.
Thumb on white notes, then the following blacks notes as one.
So for B the thumb is on B and E, for Db the thumb is on C and F.
I've found this method to be so efficient that I utilize on on most of the other scales.
I teach C major last.
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#2046099 - 03/10/13 06:23 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: John v.d.Brook]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook

Yes, but it quickly moves up to mm=120. Which is still quite leisurely, IMO, but remember, 95% of American teachers cannot play, let along teach, scales to any extent.


Maybe the number came from that poll of 20 teachers where only 1 had heard of Penelope Roskell. At least, the math would work out correctly. Can't find the reference though.
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#2046125 - 03/10/13 07:24 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: Minniemay]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
And you know this how?

Besides being a mind reader????? It's a WAG based on conversations with teachers over the past 4 decades. I might be erring on the high side.
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#2046128 - 03/10/13 07:27 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
And I don't want to embarrass anyone, but not too long ago, I was with a group of teachers, and I was the only one who was reasonably fluent at all 24 scales. They all had at least a BA in performance, most had masters.
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#2046140 - 03/10/13 07:52 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Last time I counted there were 48 scales. smile
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#2046191 - 03/10/13 09:29 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: Minniemay]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Last time I counted there were 48 scales. smile


Obviously you're counting minors as three each.

But that kind of evades John's point, doesn't it? If you don't play the 24 (major and natural minor, I assume) fluently, you are unlikely to play the harmonic and melodic minors much better.

It leads to a larger problem. If most piano teachers neither play nor teach the 24 simplest scales effectively, BUT do play and teach repertoire effectively (that may or may not be a big if) then is the importance of the scale less than claimed?

And to a smaller problem. There are a number of people who claim that Hanon et al fingering simply imposes a fingering pattern on all scales regardless of requirements, and that a topology derived fingering pattern would put the topological requirements first. If scales are important, should you have an opinion on that argument?

I just played a couple of familiar scales. I didn't have much trouble getting them to sixteenths at quarter = 168 (on the windup Seth Thomas), though they weren't as even as I'd have liked. Piano isn't my primary instrument, my practice time goes into trombone. Shouldn't a real pianist easily double my speed? HS of course, I don't work HT scales.
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#2046209 - 03/10/13 10:18 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: TimR]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Tim,

I suspect we're talking oranges and tangerines here. When students are playing 4 octaves, they play sixteenth notes, ie, 4 to a beat. mm=210 is about tops for the finest pianists.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#2046211 - 03/10/13 10:21 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: Minniemay]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Last time I counted there were 48 scales. smile

Did you have a bad night? Or just feeling ornery today? Actually, if you add in the modes and chromatic, the number is far higher than that, but as Tim points out, I was just generalizing at 12 majors and 12 minors.
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#2046220 - 03/10/13 10:33 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: John v.d.Brook]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Tim,

When students are playing 4 octaves, they play sixteenth notes, ie, 4 to a beat. mm=210 is about tops for the finest pianists.


Four octaves? Oh, never mind!

Yeah, I can play one octave at 168, 4 notes per beat, no problem, but four octaves would be a stretch.

I've done that exercise where you do one octave quarters, two octaves eighths, three octaves triplets, four octaves sixteenths.

Isn't that exactly backwards? The more octaves you play, the harder it is. So your top speed is limited by choosing the difficult four octaves, and you're never challenged below that. You should play one octave faster than four, and fragments much faster than that.

Not that speed is necessarily the reason for scales. But it is easily measurable.
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#2046512 - 03/11/13 02:58 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: TimR]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: TimR
Not that speed is necessarily the reason for scales. But it is easily measurable.

It is one of the more important reasons to learn scales. Evenness/smoothness being another reason. The ability to play scales in any common rhythmic groupings (2, 3, 4, or 6) is also important. Getting the thumbs not to accent is also important.

Traditional scale fingering is important to internalize, but one must not be stuck with them, as context in repertoire often forces one to begin a scale passage on a strange finger.
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#2046529 - 03/11/13 03:25 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3200
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Evenness/smoothness being another reason. The ability to play scales in any common rhythmic groupings (2, 3, 4, or 6) is also important. Getting the thumbs not to accent is also important.


Gieseking said (or maybe Leimer, I'm not sure who wrote what in that book) that playing scales with perfect evenness of tone and rhythm would teach the single most important and most neglected skill in piano, learning to listen.

He also said this was impossible to learn HT, and insisted scales must be done HS.

It also implies that scales done by rote while watching tv might not be useful for the beginner. But don't attribute that to him, I made that part up.

Quote:
Traditional scale fingering is important to internalize


There seems to be considerable disagreement on that. Finger 4 on black, never look back!
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#2050302 - 03/18/13 03:29 PM Re: Teaching Order for Scales [Re: AZNpiano]
jampff Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 8
There isn't a shortage of philosophies on this, for sure!

I'm very big on comprehension. For instance, I hate when math teachers present formulas without explanation, but as just "random" things to be memorized by rote. I want students to understand what they're doing, why it works, and why it's useful. This leads to higher satisfaction, and longer retention.

For this reason, when I teach scales, I don't teach them alone. I teach them as part of a larger unit which familiarizes the student with everything there is to know about the key, not just the scale. They understand its place in the "Circle", its relative minor, all the diatonic triads and seventh chords, and comping. The scale is is presented as the "starting point" for all these other skills/concepts.

Of course, this is not for beginners. With brand new students, I expose them to the C major scale very quickly (within the first few lessons) - just one octave, simply for the purposes of examining its "guts". Before two months have gone by, I like to make sure that they see the pattern of whole steps and half steps that make the scale, and I let them try "discovering" a few other scales of their choice on their own, just for fun. Even young children don't struggle with this very often.

After that, I usually just introduce scales as they're needed... Whenever we play a piece in a new key signature, I have them practice the scale it's associated with. We continue this process until the student is ready to start the more intensive unit I mentioned above (I call it "Key Signatures Boot Camp" because it really taxes their brain! But I love how super comfortable they become with the keys.)

But I've really enjoyed reading this thread because it's always interesting to me to see how differently people do things, and why.
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