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#2044733 - 03/07/13 07:43 PM "Don't try this at home."
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
I have a box of zinc oxide which I bought years ago from a supply house as "glue whiting." Of course,that is what I normally use it for. To give an example, there may be a loose ivory head where the cloth binder (ivory wafer) is still on the key, perhaps with a nick or two or a splintered spot. To glue it back without creating any dark spots, I would mix a bit the whiting into a brush load of hide glue. Apply the glue, clamp with a warm ivory clamp - just as you would clamp an ivory if you were actually using a new ivory wafer.

Well today I had the bright idea to do a quick repair by mixing the whiting with CA. I carefully prepared the surface, the ivory, and was planning to use a small scrap of action cloth as a "brush" of sorts. When the CA hit that Zinc Oxide, it literally smoked! The catalytic cure was so fast that I had to literally toss the action cloth out of the room. Needless to say I spent the next ten minutes getting the hardened lump off the key, removing the remnants of the old cloth binder layer, and using a traditional ivory wafer to do the repair.

This is one experiment that you should not try - it's not so hot, but is IS HOT!

You would think I would have run out of things not to try by now!
whome smokin
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#2044750 - 03/07/13 08:12 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Chemistry by trial and error is so much fun! grin
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#2044751 - 03/07/13 08:14 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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This will make interesting small talk at the College of Chemistry's Dean's Dinner, coming up in a couple of weeks!
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#2044756 - 03/07/13 08:17 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7426
Loc: Rochester MN
Was the piano a Kaboomi? Possibly a Firerich?
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#2044791 - 03/07/13 09:27 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3336
CA glue smokes when it contacts cloth/wool. Btw, have you ever tried to light steel wool on fire?? Now THAT'S fun!!! smile
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#2044802 - 03/07/13 09:48 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: beethoven986]
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Georgia, USA
Come to think of it...

The real smoke WAS coming from the action cloth scrap.

HMMMMMmmmmmm... tiki

Perhaps the quick cure was from the heat of the reaction with the wool cloth, rather than a reaction to the zinc oxide itself. Either way, that was one hard lump of pigment to get off!
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#2044842 - 03/08/13 12:10 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3336
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil

Perhaps the quick cure was from the heat of the reaction with the wool cloth, rather than a reaction to the zinc oxide itself. Either way, that was one hard lump of pigment to get off!


That would be my guess. It's happened to me before with trying to fashion a shoelace end on bushing cloth... I don't think anything dangerous will happen, but it is rather scary if you're not expecting it. And yes, it does get hot!
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#2044844 - 03/08/13 12:15 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1197
Loc: QuÚbec, Canada
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#2044865 - 03/08/13 01:33 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1309
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil
. . . I would mix a bit the whiting into a brush load of hide glue. Apply the glue, clamp with a warm ivory clamp - just as you would clamp an ivory if you were actually using a new ivory wafer.

Well today I had the bright idea to do a quick repair by mixing the whiting with CA.


For a "cooler" approach to whiting the surface under the ivories, use "TypeWite" correction fluid. It goes on nicely with its own applicator and does not interfere with the CA.

I like the experiment, though. I've actually had in mind to do a Journal article on "Blowtorch Piano Technology".
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#2044876 - 03/08/13 02:57 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Why would you want to use CA under the ivory in first place .? It does not stay in time, and is a disater or future repair. Someone talk of mixing ca whith titanium oxyde to repair plastic keys so it something else that fumes


Edited by Olek (03/08/13 02:59 AM)
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#2044914 - 03/08/13 05:47 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 435
Loc: M├╝nster, Germany
Once I tried zinc oxide with white wood glue but it does not work. The whitening effect is not so great and the glue won┬┤t work as well as before. Titanium oxide seems to be better (I heard. Never tried it by myself). Using the right glue might be better. You can get it from Laukhuff:

http://www.laukhuff.de/orgelbau.laukhuff...-materials.html
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#2044947 - 03/08/13 08:41 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: Gregor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Once I tried zinc oxide with white wood glue but it does not work. The whitening effect is not so great and the glue won┬┤t work as well as before. Titanium oxide seems to be better (I heard. Never tried it by myself). Using the right glue might be better. You can get it from Laukhuff:

http://www.laukhuff.de/orgelbau.laukhuff...-materials.html


as I understood it Titanium white and Zing oxyde are the same product..

indeed it is not whitening much some material, but works very well in hide glue.

I heard of mix with CA, but I wonder how much I will be deceived when I will try that new tip wink
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#2044958 - 03/08/13 09:07 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2003
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
While both are white pigments, titanium oxide and zinc oxide are not the same compound.
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#2044963 - 03/08/13 09:22 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Ah thanks, I did not knew that . I use some in hide glue for ivories (and cannot understand why some are still messing with CA for that job, ivories are porous, thin, and need to be protected so they can be glued correctly later.

WHite PVA glue can be used, eventually, I have seen it thickened with a "charge" of white mineral powder so it is whitened more (if not it will be greiyish to yellowish)

I also suggest that the wood below the ivory need to expand and contract, and I am far from sure that any CA based gluing can allow that (that may be a reason why I have seen CA glueing of ivory fail after some time)

We rarely see wafers on the best pianos (ivories are thick then) anyway it was not the case before WWII.

I understand that the wafer may provide a supple joint between ivory and wood, so we dont see the ivory cracks that can be noticed sometime (rarely in my experienc)

They can be made with what we call "cheese cloth" and the white skin and bone glue... The "cloth" for medical use is probably OK as well.
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#2044972 - 03/08/13 09:43 AM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: Mark R.]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
While both are white pigments, titanium oxide and zinc oxide are not the same compound.


Imagine if the SR 71 or some of the Antonov cargo planes were made of zinc instead of titanium.

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#2045176 - 03/08/13 04:55 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
I had a little nice Boeing in zing and it was a nice plane wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2045247 - 03/08/13 07:44 PM Re: "Don't try this at home." [Re: RestorerPhil]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 552
Originally Posted By: RestorerPhil


Perhaps the quick cure was from the heat of the reaction with the wool cloth, rather than a reaction to the zinc oxide itself. Either way, that was one hard lump of pigment to get off!


I think you're correct..

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