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#2041645 - 03/01/13 11:46 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: dbudde]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: dbudde
Re: Vienna Imperial

There is no partial pedal support.

As for re-pedaling or whatever you want to call it...

Vienna Imperial triggers a release sample whenever you release a key or let go of the pedal. Different release samples are triggered depending on the duration of the note or if the pedal was already depressed. But these release samples are just like any other samples. They get sustained if you press the sustain pedal before the sample decays. So what you asked about will happen as you expect it should.

Thank you very much. If you are involved in the product design (just guessing) do you know why there is no partial pedal support?

I'm going to try playing Ivory II American D and the Galaxy Vintage D with partial pedal turned off (repedalling still enabled) and see how much that affects playing them. If not too bad I may get the Vienna Imperial (unfortunately I'm not a Bosey fan).
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2041671 - 03/02/13 01:22 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
dbudde Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 30
I have no affiliation with the company other than as a customer.

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#2041844 - 03/02/13 12:33 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Macy

You have me intrigued enough to go buy and try it. But I want to be sure what it is really doing. Would you please try this experiment for me? Play a chord with the pedal down. Then release the pedal and then quickly press the pedal again. Does it catch the chord during its decay and sustain it from that point on?




Yes it does exactly that. In fact you can quickly pump the sustain pedal and it keeps the sustain alive as long as it can before it diminishes. The instrument is very alive and I am having trouble keeping it from being too resonant, but that's likely due to my heavy handed approach, not used to playing a responsive instrument.

There is no partial pedal as alluded to.

I'm still making comparisons with the American D as far as overall tone. They each are equal, where one gives, the other takes. A combination of the two would be perfect. I think they are both worth $400.

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#2041934 - 03/02/13 04:37 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: Fscotte

Yes it does exactly that. In fact you can quickly pump the sustain pedal and it keeps the sustain alive as long as it can before it diminishes. The instrument is very alive and I am having trouble keeping it from being too resonant, but that's likely due to my heavy handed approach, not used to playing a responsive instrument.

There is no partial pedal as alluded to.

I'm still making comparisons with the American D as far as overall tone. They each are equal, where one gives, the other takes. A combination of the two would be perfect. I think they are both worth $400.

Thanks for confirming.

What does your last sentence mean? The American D is about $180 and the Vienna Imperial is about $700 with the Vienna USB protection dongle. If they are equals (in your opinion), why would the Imperial be worth more than $180? And the Vintage D is better than the American D in my opinion, and it is about $135.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2042006 - 03/02/13 07:06 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
dbudde Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: Macy
...I may get the Vienna Imperial (unfortunately I'm not a Bosey fan).


I can't imagine why you'd buy this if you don't like the sound of a Bosendofer.

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#2042007 - 03/02/13 07:09 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
It's my way of trying to convey their equality by worth, which is irrelevant to their cost. $400 is a compromise, it brings the American D up in value, because I think it deserves it, and brings the Vienna down a notch because if you compare features, the American D is better with all the presets and way to shape the tone.

One thing about the Vienna, perhaps it is my keyboard, Yamaha CLP340, but I had to reduce the volume of Middle C to the next B - that entire octave, which sounded like I was getting a too strong velocity with those notes. I also had to increase the volume on a high C, D, and D#. I know the Yamaha keyboards have had their issues with MIDI so perhaps that was it. But I was able to adjust those using the key editor which I find quite valuable.

I can't comment on the Vintage D but the Vienna is definitely brighter than the American D.

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#2042011 - 03/02/13 07:25 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: dbudde]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: dbudde
Originally Posted By: Macy
...I may get the Vienna Imperial (unfortunately I'm not a Bosey fan).


I can't imagine why you'd buy this if you don't like the sound of a Bosendofer.

Yeah, you're right. I'll probably hold-off until one morning I wake up and realize I haven't had a new piano VST to explore for a while and just have to have somethig new to play with. What I really want is another Yamaha. I'm not entirely satisfied with the sound of the Ivory II C7, which is the best I've found so far.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2042012 - 03/02/13 07:31 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
One thing about the Vienna, perhaps it is my keyboard, Yamaha CLP340, but I had to reduce the volume of Middle C to the next B - that entire octave, which sounded like I was getting a too strong velocity with those notes. I also had to increase the volume on a high C, D, and D#. I know the Yamaha keyboards have had their issues with MIDI so perhaps that was it. But I was able to adjust those using the key editor which I find quite valuable.


I don't know of any MIDI problem like you describe with Yamaha keyboards and I use the CVP-409GP for my software pianos. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that many keyboards, the Yamaha's included, don't put out MIDI values above about 115-120 (somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly the limit on mine at this moment). But that is easy to "fix" by changing the velocity curve.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2042223 - 03/03/13 08:29 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
mitzysman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: Macy
.

You are talking about the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna Imperial piano that is priced at approximately $650+, and not the Vienna Symphonic Library Bösendorfer Imperial piano that is priced at about $175, and not the Galaxy Vienna Grand Imperial 290 piano? Correct?


I glad you said this - I thought they were the same VSL library - i thought maybe since it's been a while the price dropped from 650 to under 200. I wonder what the main difference is between them.

While I wasn't a fan of the Bosendorfer samples at first after playing Galaxy Vienna... it really grew on me (after tweaking). Of course I doubt I would ever find a real Bose i could afford - 100k just for a 6' model - wow - but I'm digging the sound now. The VSL Vienna sounds tempting, but I could buy 2 full suites for 650
_________________________
Yamaha P-250 | Galaxy II Pianos | Galaxy Vintage D | The GIANT

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#2042416 - 03/03/13 04:29 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Macy
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
One thing about the Vienna, perhaps it is my keyboard, Yamaha CLP340, but I had to reduce the volume of Middle C to the next B - that entire octave, which sounded like I was getting a too strong velocity with those notes. I also had to increase the volume on a high C, D, and D#. I know the Yamaha keyboards have had their issues with MIDI so perhaps that was it. But I was able to adjust those using the key editor which I find quite valuable.


I don't know of any MIDI problem like you describe with Yamaha keyboards and I use the CVP-409GP for my software pianos. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that many keyboards, the Yamaha's included, don't put out MIDI values above about 115-120 (somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly the limit on mine at this moment). But that is easy to "fix" by changing the velocity curve.



Well I thought it was just my keyboard but it turns out Vienna is quite unbalanced in terms of individual notes. I found that there was a variance of 10dB between various notes or sets of notes. As a comparison, American D was within 2dB throughout the entire range of notes.

But it wasn't just my hearing that was telling me this, but I was able to check this since I have nearfield monitors that display the level of incoming signals.

-Set the VST to mono.

-Set the Yamaha key sensitivity level to OFF, that makes the velocity the same no matter how hard or soft you hit the key.

-Check decibel reading on nearfield monitors.

If you have a way of measuring the output of the signal you can check this as well.

One may argue that a real piano has variations in volume, and that may be true with the lower register usually being of higher dB, but this was not the case with Vienna. You may have one note at say -37dB then the next note at -40dB, then the next note at -36dB. Quite odd I must say being that they seemingly took this directly from that electronics geared Bosey.

Again, the American D was absolutely rock solid in decibels from lowest to highest note. At my particular volume, the range was -43dB to -45dB.

Fortunately the level variations can be edited for each individual key with the Key Editor.


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#2042579 - 03/03/13 09:41 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: mitzysman]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: mitzysman
Originally Posted By: Macy
.

You are talking about the Vienna Symphonic Library Vienna Imperial piano that is priced at approximately $650+, and not the Vienna Symphonic Library Bösendorfer Imperial piano that is priced at about $175, and not the Galaxy Vienna Grand Imperial 290 piano? Correct?


I glad you said this - I thought they were the same VSL library - i thought maybe since it's been a while the price dropped from 650 to under 200. I wonder what the main difference is between them.

From what I read (I don't have either) the less expensive Bösendorfer Imperial is an older sample set released in 2006 that contains 9350 samples (55 GB uncompressed) while the newer Vienna Imperial has about 70,000 samples is about 500 GB uncompressed.
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2042626 - 03/04/13 12:14 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: Fscotte

Well I thought it was just my keyboard but it turns out Vienna is quite unbalanced in terms of individual notes. I found that there was a variance of 10dB between various notes or sets of notes. As a comparison, American D was within 2dB throughout the entire range of notes.

But it wasn't just my hearing that was telling me this, but I was able to check this since I have nearfield monitors that display the level of incoming signals.

-Set the VST to mono.

-Set the Yamaha key sensitivity level to OFF, that makes the velocity the same no matter how hard or soft you hit the key.

-Check decibel reading on nearfield monitors.

If you have a way of measuring the output of the signal you can check this as well.

One may argue that a real piano has variations in volume, and that may be true with the lower register usually being of higher dB, but this was not the case with Vienna. You may have one note at say -37dB then the next note at -40dB, then the next note at -36dB. Quite odd I must say being that they seemingly took this directly from that electronics geared Bosey.

Again, the American D was absolutely rock solid in decibels from lowest to highest note. At my particular volume, the range was -43dB to -45dB.

Fortunately the level variations can be edited for each individual key with the Key Editor.



If you can hear the inconsistency between notes then it is an issue worth correcting. But I wouldn't get too hung up on the absolute dB values your monitor meters report. Your ear is a better final measure for actual notes. The meters are probably peak levels and peak levels can be very misleading because the waveforms of the various notes have very different attack, duration, decay, etc., including notes that are close to one another, or the same note at different velocities (that is why timbre varies with velocity). Even if your meter reads RMS values, those values are still difficult to compare because picking a different duration for the RMS period will give vastly different values from note to note (again because of attack, decay, etc. differences - these aren't sinewaves).

Another issue is that even though you measured each note at the same velocity, you might get very different results measuring each note at another velocity. That is because the audio output of any particular key may not be monotonic and its output curve shape may be quite different than other keys. So the output variations between keys at any specific velocity is not the same.

As an example, here is a graph that shows the audio RMS values (measured directly from the digital audio output) for the MIDI key #76 (E4) vs key velocity from 1 to 127. You will notice that the output is not monotonic, and there is a jump of about 5 dB at one point between adjacent velocity levels. The keys immediately surrounding it have much different response curves, so the output difference between keys varies with velocity level.





Also on the same graph (the open squares) show the audio output of all keys from MIDI 21 to 108 (the 88 key range of a standard piano) at ONE particular velocity. In this case at velocity 56. You can see a huge variation (about 15 dB) in the audio output levels across all the keys, and even differences as much as 8 dB between adjacent keys. And remember this is at ONE velocity. Choosing another velocity will produce different variations.

(Ignore the small graph in bottom right corner, which is used to show raw vs calibrated output because I grabbed this from an partially calibrated piano file.)

I won't identify which particular software piano this graph was taken from because then I would probably have to respond to comparison questions about all the software pianos I own, and this graph is only one piano at one key vs velocity, and one velocity vs all keys. i.e. it barely scratches the surface of evaluating the one piano.


Edited by Macy (03/04/13 12:26 AM)
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2042774 - 03/04/13 10:05 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
Wow, that's a lot to chew on and I really don't follow it exactly. Why is it that American D is so even in it's output?

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#2042915 - 03/04/13 03:29 PM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Fscotte]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
Wow, that's a lot to chew on and I really don't follow it exactly. Why is it that American D is so even in it's output?

Because it was produced very well?
_________________________
Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#2046366 - 03/11/13 07:12 AM Re: I just bought Ivory II American Concert D & Vienna Imperial. [Re: Macy]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 518
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Macy
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
Wow, that's a lot to chew on and I really don't follow it exactly. Why is it that American D is so even in it's output?

Because it was produced very well?


Just purchased it to make solo jazz/classical rcordings, not for live performance.

I own many samples, including Vintage D, Garritan Steinway, PMI Bos and Old Lady, Black Grand, EWQL's collection.

The American Grand is--for the purposes I mentioned--without any competition. It's the only Steinway sample currently on the market that can be A/Bed against any modern high-end solo piano recording and "pass the test."

The others, including the nice-sounding Vintage D, don't pass that test. Good ears can spot the sample every time.

Good ears can't spot the American. That's a first.

Sure, the midi file has to be good. For example, the classical demos up at Ivory don't do the American justice: clearly pure quantized midi, and not so pretty.

But give this sampled piano something to work with and it can't be distinguished from a live recording--in fact, it can't be distinguished from a well-recorded live recording.

This is a "first ever" and a game changer for recorded piano. Until now, you still had to record a real Steinway to get a top notch recording.

Not true anymore.

A real milestone.

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