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#2046919 - 03/12/13 10:58 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10342
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
_________________________
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Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2046995 - 03/12/13 01:35 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: peterws
I`ll sing y`a song that`ll get on yer nerves get on yer nerves get on yer nerves I`ll sing y`a song that`ll get on yer nerves get on yer nerves get on yer nerves I`ll sing y`a song that`ll get on yer nerves get on yer nerves get on yer nerves


ROTFLFMACO!!!!
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#2046998 - 03/12/13 01:38 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6122
Loc: Rochester MN
Does the "C" stand for completely?
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2047003 - 03/12/13 01:50 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Does the "C" stand for completely?


"CLEAN" laugh
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#2047008 - 03/12/13 01:58 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6122
Loc: Rochester MN
Works for me!

Clean is an important consideration for the area.

This little dude doesn't even have one, clean or not! It works good!

_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2047040 - 03/12/13 03:13 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3135
Loc: Northern England.
How about a pressure device operating between the bridge and end of the string? Wouldn`t need to move far to be effective . .
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#2047045 - 03/12/13 03:21 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10342
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: peterws
How about a pressure device operating between the bridge and end of the string? Wouldn`t need to move far to be effective . .


Wouldn't you need well over 200 of them operating independently?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2047077 - 03/12/13 04:33 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: peterws
How about a pressure device operating between the bridge and end of the string? Wouldn`t need to move far to be effective . .


Here's the pressure device I will need
to if this thread carries on much longer:



Time to head to the Digital forum and
suggest ways to add strings and hammers
to a digital to make it more real. smokin
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#2047079 - 03/12/13 04:34 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Jean Claude Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 344
Loc: France

Recently, whilst in the bath, I fell to thinking about upright pianos and how they might be improved. There seems to have been a fair bit of improvement in upright actions, particularly in the use of extra springs, magnets etc. to improve repetition but the basic tone of even the best uprights remains less than perfect.

At the same time I note that the technology for the generation of MIDI information (key and pedal motion) from an acoustic piano is now well established.

The thought that came to me is that MIDI information could be used to enhance the acoustic sound of the piano rather than to generate the sound of dodgy Hammonds or wonky string sections. Consider the difference between the sound of a normal upright and a top quality grand. You could express this difference for any note in terms of attack, sustain, harmonic content etc. at any given hammer velocity. You then produce a midi tone generator which, so to speak, adds to the acoustic sound of the upright the factors which make it sound different from the grand.

Clearly you would have to have an amplifier and one or more loudspeakers built into the upright.

You would also need to be able to re-sample the acoustic piano occasionally as its tone changed over time, and you would need to be very careful about keeping it in tune.

It might also be that in order for such a system to work you would need to design a piano which produces a sound without excessive harmonic content since you can add to but not deduct from the acoustic tone of the instrument.

Nonetheless it seems to me that it ought to be possible to produce an upright piano which has the sound of a high quality full size grand. Am I mad or does this idea have possibilities?

J-C.

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#2047086 - 03/12/13 04:43 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Jean Claude]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude

Am I mad or does this idea have possibilities?


Yes.
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#2047092 - 03/12/13 05:01 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Jean Claude Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 344
Loc: France
Thank you for your reply, Plonky, well up to your usual standard.

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#2047111 - 03/12/13 05:20 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
awww... was just funning with ya, Claude. blush
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#2047123 - 03/12/13 05:31 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10342
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I think the idea is worth exploring.

One problem is that the notes on the acoustic are generated instantly, so syncing it with a digital tone might be problematic. Think: Flight of the Bumblebee...

Could a processor keep up with the computation of the additional tone?

I doubt it, but a) I'm not expert in processing and b) they get faster every day.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2047128 - 03/12/13 05:36 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Steve Cohen]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I think the idea is worth exploring.

One problem is that the notes on the acoustic are generated instantly, so syncing it with a digital tone might be problematic. Think: Flight of the Bumblebee...

Could a processor keep up with the computation of the additional tone?

I doubt it, but a) I'm not expert in processing and b) they get faster every day.


Modern processing speeds are vastly faster than any required computation for a digital tone. Most, not all, rock singers, who perform live, use on-the-fly pitch correction for their voice.

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#2047144 - 03/12/13 05:52 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Mwm]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10342
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I think the idea is worth exploring.

One problem is that the notes on the acoustic are generated instantly, so syncing it with a digital tone might be problematic. Think: Flight of the Bumblebee...

Could a processor keep up with the computation of the additional tone?

I doubt it, but a) I'm not expert in processing and b) they get faster every day.


Modern processing speeds are vastly faster than any required computation for a digital tone. Most, not all, rock singers, who perform live, use on-the-fly pitch correction for their voice.


Again I plead ignorance, but it seems impossible to me that MIDI hardware (key contacts) and software could keep up the a complex and very fast piece.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#2047155 - 03/12/13 06:02 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Steve Cohen]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I think the idea is worth exploring.

One problem is that the notes on the acoustic are generated instantly, so syncing it with a digital tone might be problematic. Think: Flight of the Bumblebee...

Could a processor keep up with the computation of the additional tone?

I doubt it, but a) I'm not expert in processing and b) they get faster every day.


Modern processing speeds are vastly faster than any required computation for a digital tone. Most, not all, rock singers, who perform live, use on-the-fly pitch correction for their voice.


Again I plead ignorance, but it seems impossible to me that MIDI hardware (key contacts) and software could keep up the a complex and very fast piece.


Midi uses a communication protocol of 31.25 kbaud. There are ten bits per packet, so you would need to able to play, assuming no packets were in use for other midi changes, 3125 notes per second to outrun it. However, if you used the damper pedal and had 32 notes playing simultaneouosly, you would have to slow down to about 97 chords per second.

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#2047159 - 03/12/13 06:07 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Steve Cohen]
Jean Claude Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 344
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I think the idea is worth exploring.

One problem is that the notes on the acoustic are generated instantly, so syncing it with a digital tone might be problematic. Think: Flight of the Bumblebee...

Could a processor keep up with the computation of the additional tone?

I doubt it, but a) I'm not expert in processing and b) they get faster every day.


It is an interesting point, but I`m not sure that this would be a problem. I should have thought that the situation would be roughly analogous to having a Midi tone generator triggered by a keyboard and there is no appreciable delay when you use an arrangement of this sort.

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#2047160 - 03/12/13 06:07 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6122
Loc: Rochester MN
The thing about the use of Auto-Tune is it is designed to only correct one solo input, usually voice. It would become very complex when confronted with many simultaneous notes (inputs) and correct all of them instantaneously. A delay would be inherent, even before the delay from the speaker. I think that Steve is correct.

"All Things Considered" vocalists could often benefit from the technology!

Who wrote The Flight of Two Bumblebees, anyway?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2047168 - 03/12/13 06:16 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
The thing about the use of Auto-Tune is it is designed to only correct one solo input, usually voice. It would become very complex when confronted with many simultaneous notes (inputs) and correct all of them instantaneously. A delay would be inherent, even before the delay from the speaker. I think that Steve is correct.

"All Things Considered" vocalists could often benefit from the technology!

Who wrote The Flight of Two Bumblebees, anyway?


You may be right, but from a processing standpoint, any good gaming video card can handle millions of full 3D rendering calculations per second. Any audio processing requirement sensible to the human ear, is trivial. Incindentally, the fastest supercomputer in the world, designed to look a single moment in the interior of a nuclear reaction, is made up of off the shelf video cards.

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#2047173 - 03/12/13 06:23 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
The thing about the use of Auto-Tune is it is designed to only correct one solo input, usually voice. It would become very complex when confronted with many simultaneous notes (inputs) and correct all of them instantaneously. A delay would be inherent, even before the delay from the speaker. I think that Steve is correct.


Apples and oranges... not talking about using
Auto-tune to figure out the note and correct it here..
the sensors will tell the processor what the notes
should be.

I really don't see how this would be any different than
hooking up a midi"ed" acoustic to a tone generator to layer
the sounds.
_________________________
http://DulceLabs.com
Sound, Video, Design

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#2047174 - 03/12/13 06:23 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Jean Claude]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3135
Loc: Northern England.
"Nonetheless it seems to me that it ought to be possible to produce an upright piano which has the sound of a high quality full size grand. Am I mad or does this idea have possibilities?"

Some of us can`t tell the bloody difference anyway . . . . there are some darned good uprights out there . . I played one in the "Queens Arms" in Barrow in Furness 40 odd years ago. It had neither back nor front. Beautiful to hear.

But nowhere to put my beer.


Edited by peterws (03/14/13 05:46 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2047175 - 03/12/13 06:26 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Steve Cohen]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3135
Loc: Northern England.
"Wouldn't you need well over 200 of them operating independently?"

Who`s counting? They`ll be mass produced in China . . .

Plinky, I`ve just laughed my arse off tonight . . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2047199 - 03/12/13 07:01 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: peterws

Plinky, I`ve just laughed my arse off tonight . . . .


It has been a good night, hasn't it? smile

You and Jean are fun guys to mess with!
All in good fun!
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Sound, Video, Design

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#2047339 - 03/12/13 11:06 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
Swarth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 365
Loc: SF Bay Area Ca.
What would be an improvement is to junk MIDI completely and utilze todays better and faster methods of communication. 128 bits of resolution? That's so 1980's.
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#2047533 - 03/13/13 08:54 AM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Swarth]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Swarth
What would be an improvement is to junk MIDI completely and utilze todays better and faster methods of communication. 128 bits of resolution? That's so 1980's.


Quid est veritas? -Indeed! A person after my own heart.

Unfortunately, MIDI is so pervasive and muscians so impoverished that few would be willing to throw away perfectly good 30 year old equipment for a possible improvement in the sound that none of the audience is likely to hear anyway.

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#2047615 - 03/13/13 12:03 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: Mwm]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: Mwm

Unfortunately, MIDI is so pervasive and muscians so impoverished that few would be willing to throw away perfectly good 30 year old equipment for a possible improvement in the sound that none of the audience is likely to hear anyway.


I was reading this and thinking "who the heck
has 30 year old electronics...???"... then I
remembered: My D-50 is about 25 years old and
my SQ-80 is close behind... Thinking more about it
my piano is my NEWEST piece of music gear,
and she's 10 years old!
_________________________
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Sound, Video, Design

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#2047638 - 03/13/13 12:27 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
I have had to replace just about every piece of electronics I have bought since I got my piano, and my piano was over 50 years old when I bought it.
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Semipro Tech

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#2047708 - 03/13/13 02:50 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: BDB]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2235
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: BDB
I have had to replace just about every piece of electronics I have bought since I got my piano, and my piano was over 50 years old when I bought it.

...and no maintenance or replacement parts in your piano?

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#2047880 - 03/13/13 09:16 PM Re: Modern improvements to the Piano [Re: peterws]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Oh, yes, there has been maintenance, and replacement parts. The electronics were "obsolete," so there were no replacement parts available.
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