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I was hoping to be able to post my own version of this for Christmas but the eight measures of arpeggios near the end have thwarted my attempts to get it done in time.
In the meantime I guess you'll have to "settle" for a professional recording!
This thread has made my year extra special. Thank you to everyone who made it what it is and I wish a Merry Christmas to you all.
M21 Beat 1 - Em Beat 2 - ditto Beat 3 - Am Beat 4 - same
M22 Beat 1 - B Beat 2 - B7 Beat 3 - Am7/C Beat 4 - same
M23 Beat 1 - B7 Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - Am7/C Beat 4 - same
M24 Beat 1 - B7 Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - Em Beat 4 - Em
Then we begin theme 2 again. Starts out at least exactly as M12, but a third higher. Not sure, if different key, but will find out when we get there. I won't be venturing in to this for awhile though. Next chords will be filling in the blank (M6 - M11.)
The G has changed to A but one B has changed to C. This is not a straightforward sus 4 chord.
A C E B = 1, b3, 5, 9 = Am add 9 - the best fit for the notes.
B C E A = 1, b2, 4, b7 = 1 b7 b9 11 = B11b9? The eleventh is rarely heard without some notes being dropped because of the dissonance between notes. The worst offender, the third, is most often dropped but also the ninth (that is included here, flattened). The fifth is also dropped here - in normal four part harmony the 11th is 1 5 b7 11. This is a 7b9 chord with the 11th added.
Neither C E A B (a very sparse C major 13? ) nor E A B C (E sus4 b6?) offer better alternatives. This is a difficult naming problem but if we look at the next measure...
Originally Posted by Greener
M20 Beat 1 - F#7(add 11 )/B
The chords are easier to name... F# A# E B = 1, 3, b7, 11 = F# 11 (with or without the melody note, C#). Remember that in four part harmony the third is more likely to be dropped, again because of the dissonance (A# to B) yet here again we have the third but no fifth.
Quote
Sidebar: When the flat 7 is present, signifying the dominant chord, 2, 4 and 6 go in the next octave as extensions 9, 11 and 13. If the flat 7 is missing then they are 'added' when they're numbered in the next octave and may or may not be on the dominant.
1 2 5 = sus 2 = sus 4 of dominant (C-D-G = C sus2 or G sus4) - both pull gently to G; listen to Cat Stevens - Can't Keep It In or The Who - Pinball Wizard; 1 2 3 5 = 1 3 5 9 = add 9 - another gentle pull to tonic; listen to The Beatles - A Hard Days Night or The Who - Behind Behind Eyes; 1 3 5 b7 9 = dominant ninth - a stronger pull to tonic than the dom. 7th.
1 4 5 = sus 4; 1 3 4 5 = 1 3 5 11 = add 11 (I've never met one before - can you hear why?); 1 (3) 5 b7 (9) 11 = 11 (9 is optional because it doesn't change the characteristic sound of a dominant 11th)
1 3 5 6 = 6th = relative minor 7th (C E G A = C6 or Am7) 1 3 5 6 b7 = 1 3 5 b7 13 = 13 (9 and 11 are optional)
...and B7 sus 4...
These chords, or more precisely, their names, present me with a bit of difficulty but if we look at their position and their function there's another explanation that I prefer. These are building up to a climax in M21 by way of chromatic increase on a dominant pedal, B.
For my own analysis these chords would go unnamed. Their names wouldn't help me as much to learn this piece as would understanding their function.
There's a climax at M18.1 and M30.1 but this second climax, M21.1 is replaced in the repeat by the beginning of the coda and in my interpretation is the greater climax, all the more so for only occurring once.
Originally Posted by Greener
M22 Beat 3 - Am7/C
I see separate chords on each beat; beat 3: C E G = C major; beat 4: C E A = A minor. The melody G can be taken as a 7th. M23 is similar.
Note that M12 is in the dominant and M25 is in tonic - a fourth higher not a third.
The G has changed to A but one B has changed to C. This is not a straightforward sus 4 chord.
A C E B = 1, b3, 5, 9 = Am add 9 - the best fit for the notes.
This is a 7b9 chord with the 11th added.
Yes, I see why this is not a straightforward sus4. I also now see the other choices. I don't think I ever would have picked the b7-9add11, but fits for me now.
This is all taking a bit of digesting, and still hasn't quite settled yet.
I also took a crack at M6-M11 and posting here now. So hope you like them . This has a similar build as we had starting at m22. I took a look at again but still like the g major:
M6 Beat 1 - E7 Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - Am Beat 4 - same
M7 Beat 1 - C#dim Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - D7/F# Beat 4 - same
M8 Beat 1 - G Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - C Beat 4 - same
M9 Beat 1 - D/F# Beat 2 - D7 Beat 3 - G Beat 4 - same
M10 Beat 1 - F#7 Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - G Beat 4 - same
M11 Beat 1 - F#7 Beat 2 - same Beat 3 - Bm Beat 4 - same
Based on this (assuming some of it is correct) I would say we have just passed through the key of G major (relative major of E minor)
Just an observation about Mendelssohn and this look at chords to date: A theme I see (we saw it in the coda of 102 No 6, as well) is, this feller is keen on building suspense and prolonging closure.
Here in M10 the F#7 does not resolve straight away, rather he goes to G, then goes to F#7 again and then resolves. In M22-M24 he draws it out even more. Same idea (different chords.) Twice he goes to B7 without resolving and finally the third time resolves to Em.
I'd hazard to guess that this is part of his signature and that we would see this pattern recurring in his other works.
Just an observation about Mendelssohn and this look at chords to date...
Looking beyond the chords! How much of this would you have found without analysis? How much easier will it now be to prolong those resolutions with gentle ritardandos in your playing or just add a moments pause before savouring the resolving chords?
This is genuine progress and just one of the practical benefits of analysis.
Looking at the recapitulation vs. the exposition and my head is already starting to spin.
This is what it is looking like so far. I'm having a challenge accounting for all the content from exposition.
Everything starts off fine. That is similar.
M102-103 = M1-M2 M103-M107 = M3-M6 (quasi - some colour variation but clearly the same melody and harmony) M108=M7 M109=M8 quasi M110-M114=M9-M13 M115=M14 (A and E are flat vs M14)
M116-M119 This is where I was expecting the transition theme from M15-M19, but this is really quite different.
Then this next section M120-129 I can't even really account for. Will take some more careful examination. In listening though, it all sounds new to me.
When we get to M130 though, this is clearly from M34.
M130-142=M34-46 (142 has a different ending )
Then I expect all the rest is from Coda, but not an exact match by any stretch.
...M116-M119 This is where I was expecting the transition theme from M15-M19, but this is really quite different.
Then this next section M120-129 I can't even really account for. Will take some more careful examination. In listening though, it all sounds new to me.
When we get to M130 though, this is clearly from M34.
M130-142=M34-46 (142 has a different ending )
Then I expect all the rest is from Coda, but not an exact match by any stretch.
M102-115=M1-114 Theme 1 etc.
M116-119=Another transition theme (for another theme perhaps?), a chromatic descent to G for...
M120-129=O how my heart leaps! Theme 1 in the style of theme 2 and leading up to a delightful double trill where we...
M130-137=M34-41 Transition to and recap Theme 2
M138-150=M42-53 Coda - modified - and lower in pitch so he hasn't just tried working around the limitations of the keyboard.
Haydn has not rested on his laurels but continued with his creativity through to the end.
M116-119=Another transition theme (for another theme perhaps?), a chromatic descent to G for...
OK, I am happy with this explanation.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
M120-129=O how my heart leaps! Theme 1 in the style of theme 2 and leading up to a delightful double trill where we...
Yes, after careful examination I was just about to say the same thing, but you beat me to it again . Actually, I hadn't picked up on this, but yes indeed, I can hear theme 1 coming through in this more melodic treatment of it.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
M130-137=M34-41 Transition to and recap Theme 2
I definitely got the theme 2 happening here but had bunched it within the group of measures from m130-142. Suppose I should not have done though, as it should be a distinct mention and Coda starts immediately following at m138.
One more little question on this piece. I've decided to make this my next recital piece. It is becoming special to me now, and has/is more work then I had anticipated in playing it cleanly throughout with polished expression and tempo. So, with this in mind I want to make sure I fully understand how it should be presented.
In the posted performance, Mr. Brendel takes the first repeat in the Allegretto. He does not take the second repeat.
If he were playing by the score he should have taken this repeat, correct?
Then he takes the repeat in the second part of the Trio.
Lastly, "Allegretto D.C." is then marked at the end of the Trio. This means play the Allegretto again as da cota. Is this correct? This time, without any repeats. Not sure how we are supposed to know all of this .
Or, did Alfred play it correctly and I am not interpreting the score correctly.
One more lastly ... this is going to be tough (at least the way Alfred is playing this) to line up to a metronome. Is it intended to allow for Rubato (I hope so.) If so, it is not marked as such.
D.C. stands for "da capo" which means "from the beginning" (literally, "from the head", or colloquially "from the top"). Yes, in this case it means play the Allegretto again. Usually you will find "Fine" (meaning "End", pronounced "fee-nay") marked somewhere in the score and this is where you stop playing after the Da Capo. (I don't have this score in front of me to check.)
Oh, on repeats: I have noticed performers taking liberties with the repeats of the development/recapitulation sections of sonata-form movements. In the Haydn, Hamelin omits this marked repeat while Brendel takes it. There's a recording on YouTube of the Beethoven Sonatina in F, which in my edition does not have a repeat, but the performer does repeat that section.
Independently: when taking Da Capo sections, the convention is not to play the repeats when taking the Da Capo.
In the posted performance, Mr. Brendel...should have taken this repeat, correct?
Correct.
The first repeat in the Allegretto is advised but is not mandatory.
The second repeat is a good deal longer and is optional.
The Trio sections are short; repeat both or neither.
The da Capo is usually done without repeats.
Repeats have a specific purpose. They make sure the piece is balanced in musical proportion and that the audience has grasped the material that's going to help understanding the rest of the piece.
This is not a sonata where the themes are going to undergo great translation so proportion is key and discretion is the order of the day.
Some pieces are specifically marked 'da capo al fine senza repetizione' (from the top to the end without repeats) others may just take it as read. Take all the repeats the first time through and ignore them from the d.C. and no-one can fault you though they may still criticise your labourious pedantry.
Originally Posted by Greener
One more lastly ... this is going to be tough...to line up to a metronome. Is it intended to allow for Rubato (I hope so.) If so, it is not marked as such.
When a piece is tough to line up to a metronome I recommend more practice with a metronome!
If you find the metronome stultifying turn it off when you CAN play with it.
Without good timekeeping music can lose its most important attribute. If it's the performer's intention to deliberately interfere with the listener's rhythm to bring out an emotional effect, for example, if the music is written well enough that such an effect is unnecessary then the performer comes across as affected, histrionic or unkempt. If the performer keeps strict time no-one can fault that aspect of the performance.
Precious few can play as strictly as a metronome and those that can probably wouldn't. There may be folk whose timekeeping is the equivalent of perfect pitch but I doubt it. I know of a conductor who was half a minute over length in a time critical recording who, when told, immediately repeated the performance half a minute quicker.
Slowing down or speeding up at cadences and climaxes is one thing but distorting the rhythm is something else. Practise with a metronome should cure the worst excesses. I find forceful foot tapping helps keep me on a steady rhythm and the restraint when I want to speed up can actually increase the intensity.
But even when playing with a metronome my fingers are unable to keep fine control. In many rock songs drummers play against a click track but the finished result is not as metronomic as using a drum machine.
As an experiment, record a piece of music that you can play well (but don't use a metronome for) with and without metronome (assuming you have one you can use with it being heard in the recording) and compare the results. I think you'll find rubato (robbed time) often robs quality.
You might find that a well chosen and finely tuned (and practised) tempo is actually better than a range of tempi throughout a piece despite initial doubts.
Thanks, everyone. I've learned a lot with these query responses.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
When a piece is tough to line up to a metronome I recommend more practice with a metronome!
Yes, I had a feeling this might be in order. Particularly with this piece. The 3/4 time is definitely tricky for me to count. It certainly is not a dancing waltz.
I think I get the message/concept though ... get the timing solid and timing embellishments (if any) only if/when the timing is solid.
Yes, will try out the metronome on an old shoe Bossa Nova and see how this pans out. Perhaps I'll post this one in the January Bar instead ...
this is going to be tough...to line up to a metronome. Is it intended to allow for Rubato (I hope so.) If so, it is not marked as such.
When a piece is tough to line up to a metronome I recommend more practice with a metronome! ... Without good timekeeping music can lose its most important attribute. If it's the performer's intention to deliberately interfere with the listener's rhythm to bring out an emotional effect, for example, if the music is written well enough that such an effect is unnecessary then the performer comes across as affected, histrionic or unkempt. If the performer keeps strict time no-one can fault that aspect of the performance.
This was absolutely the right advice. And, I was absolutely wrong about lining this up with a metronome.
It was not difficult to line up at all. The trouble (or the trouble I had anticipated, incorrectly) was not with the tempo at all. Rather, I was applying the wrong measure/beat values throughout the Allegretto. I thought Brendel was speeding up and slowing down. But, he is only playing it as written and I was not.
As my reading is weak, I spend a lot of time learning the notes. Then when that task is well at hand I've worked on going back and trying to shape the piece. In this case I relied heavily on how I remember it sounding, instead of counting out the beats (counting is also huge weakness apparently.) One practice session with the Metronome and everything is back on track.
I will never question the value of this again. It was vital for me with this piece and I was otherwise headed for disaster.
I won't be on the thread today ... off to London for one more (last) Christmas of 2012.
The following quote is from much earlier work on this thread when were looking at the Clementi Sonatinas. I'm re-posting here as a refresher of things to consider as we move along with the "Adadio" (slow passage) movement.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
What to expect?
Typically only the first movement will be in sonata form. Certainly with these sonatinas that's the case.
The final movement is likely to be fast but not as intellectually engaging as a sonata form movement. The middle movement should present a gentler contrast usually with a change of key but don't expect much modulation.
Typically, and in a very general sense, the first movement will present you with technical fingerwork (scale, arpeggio and broken chord work) and architectural passages, pointing out themes and so on. The middle movement will offer an opportunity to develop your cantabile and the final movement to test your velocity and articulation.
There shouldn't be any exposition, development and recapitulation in the sense of a sonata form movement but you are likely to see a simple ABA form where the middle will be a contrast to the beginning and end. In Haydn's sonata the double bar in the menuet signalled a binary form movement rather than sonata form.
For the sonatina to have unity there should be an overlap of material but it's more likely in the outer movements. The middle movement will offer more contrast and may not be recognisably from the same sonatina. Of course, you are free to find something you can latch on to. It may be a very simple thing like one of the four-note figures. If I were writing a middle movement I would look at the jump from B to G in M1 or the two G's after the B, or even all three notes together as food for thought or inspiration.
But I'm not Clementi.
There may be nothing more than that he felt the movements went well together or that he composed them on the same day or after listening to the same jingle on his local radio station.
To start off I am trying to identify the sections, but having some difficulty.
M1 - M7 (half of M8) This is clearly a theme, but I am reluctant to call it A.
M8 - M24 If I were to call the previous theme A, I would call this one B. But ...
Wait ... changed my mind
M1 - M17 A (miscount in the score (M18 sb M17) ... oops) M18 - M24 I'm calling this a bridge passage, but perhaps could be lumped in with B. M25 - M34 B M35 - M53 A
M54 - M59 coda
So A,B,A
The trouble is the A's are not the same # of measures, but much of the content can be identified as parallel in the A's. Clearly, not all of it. I have 2 measures more in the second A.
To start off I am trying to identify the sections, but having some difficulty. ... M1 - M17 A (miscount in the score (M18 sb M17) ... oops) M18 - M24 I'm calling this a bridge passage, but perhaps could be lumped in with B. M25 - M34 B M35 - M53 A
M54 - M59 coda ... This is my best attempt at labeling this so far.
It's marked Adagio so it has a slow pulse.
It's in F major, the subdominant of the key of the opening and closing movements. It's four pages, about six minutes, which is quite long for Haydn, so there's likely to be a good bit going on here to maintain our interest for that long.
It's in 3/4 time - but you won't need your dancing shoes, Jeff!
Check your measure numbers. I have 63 measures.
Section A has four lines, M1-4, M5-8, M9-12 (nice contrast), M13-17 (compare M1-2 with M13-14 and, get this, M15 beat 2! - M16).
B opens in the dominant C major at M18 and clearly finishes with the double rest in M23.
M24 starts in C minor. Is this section C?
Note the fall from A to G in M25 (and the move to Gminor). Compare it to M10-M11. Note the fall from E to D in M25-26 (and the move to D minor), from C to B in M28 and the move to B minor. Note that gorgeous climb to the dominant seventh, C7, in M33 for the return of A.
After a reprise of B in the tonic at M53 the coda draws out M23 over four measures before the final notes.
)/B
. This has a similar build as we had starting at m22. I took a look at again but still like the g major: 
. Actually, I hadn't picked up on this, but yes indeed, I can hear theme 1 coming through in this more melodic treatment of it. 
. 