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How is it that his op. 4 was published posthumously? Does that mean that when Chopin was alive, all of his works that we know were moved back one opus? Heroic polonaise being op. 52 instead of op. 53 for instance.

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I'd like to understand this too.

I've read that opuses > 65 were assigned after Chopin's death; the implication is that 1-65 were assigned while he was alive. Perhaps the sonata was assigned to op.4 informally during his life, but wasn't actually published until after his death?

-J

Good question...from what I can tell, the internet has nothing that fully answers it.

I am pretty sure, however, that we are still using the same opus numbers under which he originally published his music (e.g. the Cello Sonata has always been Op. 65, if this source is to be trusted http://chopinsociety.com.my/chopin/works/opus-numbers/ )

Perhaps he was about to publish it and then moved on to Opus 5 but then decided not to publish Op. 4. Seems like a strange thing to do, but who knows? The internet certainly does not seem to know.

In large measure, but with a few exceptions, the opus numbers of those works published during Chopin's lifetime appeared chronologically. The first Sonata was assigned Op 4 when it was composed (1828), but it wasn't published until 1858. That in no way would have altered the Opus numbers that appeared in Chopin's time compared to the Opus numbers as we know them today. There simply wasn't a published Opus 4.

Regards,

Very interesting question!

I never wondered, because.....well I don't know why.

Anyway, prompted by your question I found this on this program note page:


Chopin wrote this sonata in 1828, when he was eighteen years old and studying at the Warsaw Conservatory–he dedicated it to Józef Elsner, his teacher at the Conservatory. And at that point this sonata began its curious history. It was one of the works Chopin took with him the following year on a visit to Vienna, and in that fabled city of music Chopin offered his new sonata to Tobias Haslinger, who had been Schubert’s publisher. Haslinger accepted the sonata and gave it the opus number of 4, but he appears to have been in no hurry to bring this music out. He delayed its preparation for twelve years, and when the proofs were finally sent to Chopin in Paris in 1841, the composer had advanced so far beyond this youthful effort that he had no interest in publishing it–he never sent corrected proofs back to Haslinger. And so although this sonata is Chopin’s official Opus 4, it was not published until 1851, two years after his death.

That's it-- Mark's found a pretty definitive answer.

I think of myself as someone who can find information online-- but I couldn't get anywhere with this one. Good find!

-J

Thank you!

My search was:

chopin sonata "opus 4" "opus number"

I said "opus 4" to avoid stuff about the other sonatas, and added "opus number" (in quotes) because I figured anything about this would probably have that phrase.

I love "Internet search science and philosophy."
If I could teach any course (or, for that matter, take one) that would be it.

This is correct, as usual.

BTW, here's another weird factoid about Chopin opus numbers.

The Mazurka in A minor "to Emile Gaillard" doesn't have an opus number at all, even though it's not posthumous. It was originally published as Opus 43, but that's the same number as the Tarantelle. I've seen different stories about what exactly was the story. One story was that the mazurka got the number first, but then Chopin or the publisher decided to give it to the Tarantelle instead, and so the mazurka got kicked off.
The other is that the publisher just made a mistake and gave the number to the mazurka even though it had already been given to the Tarantelle, and so the number didn't get put on later publications of the mazurka. Whichever it was, the mazurka just wasn't ever given a new opus number.

Chopin mazurka volumes usually have this mazurka as #51 or something like that, after all the ones with opus numbers and usually after one other. But I've seen at least one volume that has it as "#43," probably because of a misunderstanding from the Opus 43 thing.

Am I the only one who really dislikes the whole idea of posthumous publication?

I had always wondered about that, because it happens to be my favorite Mazurka

If I understand your remark : you mean that any music located/found/discovered/unearthed or which otherwise comes to light after the death of a composer - great or otherwise - should simply be destroyed?

Huh?

.....I guess the idea being, if the composer didn't want it published, it shouldn't be.

It's a fine sentiment. But I say screw it.

But, we should always be ready to look at those works with a lot of slack.

The Op 4 sonata is not as good as the other two. But it's an interesting piece, and it would have been idiotic not to publish it.

I agree -- even if for no other reason than that the slow movement is in 5/4 time.

One of the interesting things about great composers' early works is how they may reflect on the development of the their styles -- what kinds of things they experimented with and when, which other composers they seemed to be modeling after....

What I get from this piece (I think -- not sure, haven't listened or played through it in a long time) is that Chopin was very close to having found his own style and that there's less clear reminiscence of other composers than in most other of the very early works, but that he was still struggling to make something good with that style. (I think the piece just isn't very good.)

I don't think it's that he wasn't yet able to make something good with his style; I think more likely it's that he was unduly constrained by the sonata structure (although I love the other sonatas, especially #3).

I couldn't say which of the other sonatas I like better. They're both amazing.

How I got into #3:

I heard Horowitz play #2 in a concert and was dying to hear it some more, especially the funeral march (or course) and the scherzo, which had been quite spectacular. I went to get an LP that had the piece. I bought an LP, and listened and listened, and couldn't find those parts. Turned out this was the 3rd sonata -- when I saw "Sonata in B Minor" on the cover, I didn't notice that it didn't have a â™­

So I had the record by accident. A good accident.

I suppose that's what the OP was getting at, but I'm not sure why he'd assume that if something wasn't published in the composer's lifetime it was because the composer didn't want it published.

Think of all the Schubert and Bach (just to mention two) we would have missed out on if all the unpublished stuff was torched!

Chopin Opus 4 Sonata

Opus 4 by Chopin mightn’t have proved “great shakes” in the eyes of Fred ... (being published post) ... but having just played through the first 16 measures, one can give great credit his teacher Esner for giving him
a first class structured framework for his compositions.

4 measures to present the subject and neatly capped with an upward flourish in measures 5-8 ... then a theme representation (an octave higher in m9) with variation up to m12.

The introduction of a chromatic repeat at m13 and m14, closed off with a risoluto chime and echo in m16.

My interest lies in the symmetry of the work in 4 measure groups ... the hallmark of all past Masters.

Sorry about that chaps ... anybody for tennis?