Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum the FIVE TIMES practice rule, from jazzwee´s blog

I'd be one of those students. I am not certain that it is the concept of counter intuitiveness that stops us from following the excellent advice of our teachers.
I think it is that we're just so darned convinced that it couldn't possibly be necessary to go THAT slowly, to repeat such small chunks - we are unbelievers! We are certain that we should be able to play it at a somewhat reasonable tempo because though we're beginners and learners, we're adults, we are capable of doing so many difficult and challenging things, we should be able to do this too.
What we forget (and I don't know if this came up earlier in this thread or another one) is that for the other activities we do we have years and years of experience built up - the bricks and building blocks are in place.
For piano, even if we've played other instruments, it is a new ball game.

I love the bricks and food analogies - and I just wish that I'd really twigged to what my first teacher was trying to tell me - but impatience to make progress muddied the waters. I never realized until about 3 months ago that going slower at the beginning actually translates into learning faster (and more importantly, better!) overall.

My new teacher is much more demanding than the first. I think he has higher expectations for all his students, not just the kids, and he made it clear from the start that he wanted accuracy above tempo until my fingers really knew what they were doing. I am now really feeling the difference.

Another advantage I'm seeing to my efforts with the FTT, is a shift in focus ability. Very intense, for short bursts. I'm hoping that this will pay off and help me with being more focused for longer periods.

It sounds reasonable that stoping the practice session after having successfully passed some piece or phrase of it will help our brain to preferably memorize this good example of correct playing and let our brain in the background further optimize necesary channelling for a future recall of the successful process.

If I would stop the practicing session with mistakes in my playing, but am seriously aware about it, wouldn´t the brain as well store this experience for being next time better aware about how to NOT run into the same error again? Although it would be a waste of time to keep the brain busy with memorizing how to avoid errors instead of right away let it optimize things for performing something correctly, this still shouldn´t spoil our playing.

Obviously, the worst practicing routine would be to terminate the session in the believe of having performed correctly although it was flawed.

The first thing I will ask my teacher to elaborate with me, is to develope my competence to properly self-evaluate my own playing, then!

I think it's kind of like being told to "relax" while playing. The student has no basis for comparison, because they have always played with tension. So, to use a number scale, they may go from 100% tension to 98% tension, and think they have finally "relaxed" because they feel that sense of relaxation and an improvement in their playing. They have no idea how far they really have to go, because they've never felt what 0% feels like.

Definitely. I would state outright to my teacher, but I don't feel tense.

If I now try to play as I used to, I can't. I feel the tension everywhere, it bugs me, I need to get rid of it. But until you know that it's there it's invisible.

I'm probably at 97% now

That's so true. This is yet another thing that is just starting to "click" for me. And again, it isn't stubbornness or not wanting to try --- it is simply incomprehensible until you start to experience the difference.

I thought I'd improved tension reduction last year, only to discover a whole new level in the last few months...only in the last couple of weeks have I realized that the "notch" I'd taken it down to, is really still just a fraction of where I've got to be.

Cas--I am one of those students too!

I'm ok with slow, and ok with 3, 5, or 7 repeats (stacking bricks), but then I don't STOP. I back up, and try to play the piece through and it falls apart so I try again and...(throwing bricks at the pile).

It shouldn't be too hard to just stop after the slow practice.

Awesome blog for me specially that i am beginner of the piano and these types of teaching equipment is essential part of my learning piano.Which scale will you recommend to me that which piano is the best learning for me?

LOL . this happens more often to me, because I'm usually practicing till the last minute and of course you're never at the perfect 5 times perfect point at that last minute. Sometimes a part is just going downhill at the end of the day...

I was definitely one of those students too when I returned to the piano 2 years ago. For the last year I have listened to my teacher and practice slowly and in small chunks. At tis point, I can get small sections or even a page several times without a mistake. I usually aim for 7 times. The problem now is when I try to put it together that I can never seem to play consistently through the entire piece without mistakes and there does not seem to be any pattern where the mistakes are. They are not in the same places. I am working on the Chopin waltz in B minor. My teacher asked if I wanted to play at at the end of the year and my response was I don't know; it's about 7 pages with all the repeats. For the last 2 years, I have always chosen a piece that is only 2 pages long. I'm beginning to think the problem is in my head rather than my fingers. This even happens when I am at home alone although it is definitely worse in front of others. Any ideas for being able to play an entire piece consistently would be appreciated.
Thanks, zillybug

raising my hand sheepishly to admit I'm one of these students too. Not all the time, but too often. I have to constantly remind myself and just STOP.....

I think part of it is my rush to get a piece prepared for whatever the next step is.... for the next lesson, for an upcoming recital, for a contemplated recording session, to play for a friend.. whatever....gotta get those bricks stacked asap...LOL Sometimes trying to learn how to play this instrument makes me feel like such a headcase.

oohhhmmmmmmm, slow is good
oohhhhhmmmmm, slow is good
ohmmmmmmmmmmm, slow is good
ohhmmmmmmmmmm, slow is good

Tried this and it is much more harder than it seems. Why? Because after let's say the third perfect time somehow I lose my concentration and oriëntation it's like I'm getting lost in the keys and I'll make a small mistake.. Than I need to start over again.. and for example again the fourth time I make a small mistake. I think somewhere in my head it's getting frustrated so it gets worse? This even happens to me on the "easier" pieces.
Also the "fifth" time I'm very aware of the fact it is the last time. This somehow creates a pressure where I don't "go with the flow" but try really hard not to make mistakes? When for example the second and third time are no real problem the fifth time seems much harder.

What does help for me is taking a break for several minutes, let it sink in.. and than try again.

Gotta work on my concentration and dicipline!

I`ve NEVER played anything without mistakes. Not ever. And I aint gonna start now . . . .

Then stop after the third time.

Seriously. "Five times" is not a magic number; Instead, it is a concept that implies practice something a few times rather than many times. And do it slow enough to give your memory a clean "install" of the program. If you go super-slow, you can eliminate most if not all mistakes.

This is because many students over-practice things, going over and over and over the same thing, often with various mistakes, at speed, which gives the memory a mixed jumble of the good and the bad.

For me it's not quite "concentration and discipline" - it's awareness. The "x times in a row, slowed down enough to do it perfectly" is really "x times in a row, slowly enough that I'm intensely aware of what I'm doing and can do it the way I want" - slow enough I can anticipate what comes next and why, so it's the awareness that becomes habit, and is what allows me to become more musical. And the awareness, the "oneness with the music" is what liberates speed, if I need that in a particular piece, or phrasing that makes people want to dance, or whatever the music wants.

Not that I'm perfect at that , but it's an immense help.

Cathy

Thanks for your helpfull replies
Maybe more general question;
How does it work when you have let's say this little 16 bar piece.
You memorize the first 8 bars.. and play them "perfectly" although on a very low tempo. After some practicing you manage the 5 times perfect. Now it's time to let it sink in and let the resting (/brain) work for you.

Can you now go on with the other 8 bars? Or another piece?
Or does it interfer with the practice of the first 8 bars?

How does it work when you practice more pieces at the same time?

edit: and o btw.. when you finished practicing it 5 times perfectly, you have to leave it for the rest of the day? Untill next practice?

You can work on different difficulties in parallel. And you can repeat during the day, of course.
Just don´t go for endless periods of practicing (not 2 hours without a break), but do several smaller blocks (20 minutes) with pauses for relaxation of body and especially of mind in between. Intend to end your 20 minutes block with a successfull playing. Therefore you have to cut your problems down into smaller fractions, so that they can fit into the smaller time period in a way allowing you to finish it successfully.