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Beeboss, I think the issue is about contrasts. It's just one way to visualize a playing style and maybe emulate it.
At least for a jazz student like me, it made me observe the playing a little differently. Particularly with Jarrett, it was really illuminating because if you can sense a pattern to what he's doing, such as this model of melodic/harmonic I describe then you can sort of duplicate the framework of his playing.
I was listening to you one time and made this comment because I heard how you grouped your playing in a similar mix as Jarrett did. It showed an obvious influence.
I think, these kinds of observable styles are neat to document because sometimes, I feel I don't know what I'm looking for when I listen. Everything is supposed to be "organic" and just coming from some undefinable reaction in us. But my teacher is good at isolating these into something (some abstraction) I can apply to my playing.
There may be some other observable models at play. We've argued some of them to death here like Forward Motion (downbeat chord tone thing). Or talked about subs and how often they're done etc. Another one is the shapes in tension and release. These are nice little models for a learning player to assimilate. Then we can just apply them in a way that fits us I suppose.
I like looking for these little patterns in playing styles in what I hear. It's how I learn. Others may not look at it like I do and maybe approach it from a more non-intellectual level. I just think the intellectual level gives it a nice starting point and then I can focus on the music. Sort of like knowing what scale to use.
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Awesome finds! Now let's see what I can learn from this.
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Beeboss, I think the issue is about contrasts. It's just one way to visualize a playing style and maybe emulate it.
At least for a jazz student like me, it made me observe the playing a little differently. Particularly with Jarrett, it was really illuminating because if you can sense a pattern to what he's doing, such as this model of melodic/harmonic I describe then you can sort of duplicate the framework of his playing.
I was listening to you one time and made this comment because I heard how you grouped your playing in a similar mix as Jarrett did. It showed an obvious influence.
I think, these kinds of observable styles are neat to document because sometimes, I feel I don't know what I'm looking for when I listen. Everything is supposed to be "organic" and just coming from some undefinable reaction in us. But my teacher is good at isolating these into something (some abstraction) I can apply to my playing.
There may be some other observable models at play. We've argued some of them to death here like Forward Motion (downbeat chord tone thing). Or talked about subs and how often they're done etc. Another one is the shapes in tension and release. These are nice little models for a learning player to assimilate. Then we can just apply them in a way that fits us I suppose.
I like looking for these little patterns in playing styles in what I hear. It's how I learn. Others may not look at it like I do and maybe approach it from a more non-intellectual level. I just think the intellectual level gives it a nice starting point and then I can focus on the music. Sort of like knowing what scale to use. JW, yes definitely we want to have contrasts in our playing and sometimes, if we just leave it to come out by itself, it doesn't happen too well. We tend to stick with the (few) ideas we have really got down, the ones that are easiest to play, and it is only by expanding the range of ideas that we can play that we can increase the variety in our playing. So to do this we need to assimilate as many different approaches as possible so we can pull them out as we need them. The way I like to do that is by setting little limitations that force me to work on different things that wouldn't come out on their own. For instance .. - a chorus with nothing but blues scale - a chorus of not playing anything on the first beat - a chorus of triplets - chorus of just chords - left hand only - a single rhythmic idea etc By doing this I gradually increase my repertoire of ideas that I am comfortable playing. It is hard to find the balance in real performance - too much emphasis on development of patterns makes the improvisation sound like an exercise, and if there is not enough then the improvisation can sound rambling and unfocussed.
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I think my teacher's approach is similar though more big picture. He's not telling me (now) to define what Tension and Release means. But early on, he would show me examples and it would be the kind of variety you're talking about.
By defining shapes in broader terms, I think he's giving me more leeway to come up with my own answers. For example, in addition to melodic/harmonic, there's mixing intervallic with linear playing, or inside/outside. Long lines/Short Lines, Syncopated/Straight. They're all general things so it's not as intellectualized as I make it sound.
The journey of course is to find one's voice and it's the balance and mix of these things that make us sound different I guess.
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Hard to believe but I've started to "copy" the Keith Jarrett version of BBBB. Notice I didn't say "transcribe" because I'm not writing it down. However, I've been playing to the record. The notes themselves are easy enough, but it's really cool playing with Keith and learning the groove.
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It's a fun, but also slightly sad song (which is not about Black birds - but a prostitute singing bye bye to her johns (the black birds) and she's going home back to her mother . . .).
Well I never knew that. It is not clear though even after I have read the (usually unsung) verses about 'bluebirds'. I guess I just don't know the right slang. I wonder if knowing this will make me play it differently. jeez, I know I will. I thought the song was just a melancholic thingy. Time to add some more b9 chords and bitter-sweet voicings.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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jeez, I know I will. I thought the song was just a melancholic thingy. Time to add some more b9 chords and bitter-sweet voicings. Not only that, but according to my research into the song, it "should" be played as a ballad
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It's a fun, but also slightly sad song (which is not about Black birds - but a prostitute singing bye bye to her johns (the black birds) and she's going home back to her mother . . .).
Well I never knew that. It is not clear though even after I have read the (usually unsung) verses about 'bluebirds'. I guess I just don't know the right slang. I wonder if knowing this will make me play it differently. jeez, I know I will. I thought the song was just a melancholic thingy. Time to add some more b9 chords and bitter-sweet voicings. What chord would best represent a prostitute leaving her johns i wonder? Maybe a Db7sharp9, or a Abdim7 with added major 7th. Or maybe just a plain old F major.
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jeez, I know I will. I thought the song was just a melancholic thingy. Time to add some more b9 chords and bitter-sweet voicings. Not only that, but according to my research into the song, it "should" be played as a ballad I guess a lot of the tunes we normally think of as being up tempo numbers started out as ballads. Here is a ballad version of bbbb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVdz4YuMDQ4I can't find any versions with the verse though, not that I have checked out that many.
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Nice! Very nice. God Peggy Lee could really sing. Fun to hear a different set of chords.
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man, Jarrett was messed up playing this uptempo. What was he thinking 
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Anybody with jazzed up chords to Winter Wonderland? I'm playing this on Friday and so I came up with my own changes. I hope I got the modulations right.
Winter Wonderland (Key of G)
A
{:| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 |:}
B
| C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 | C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 |
| E-7 A7 | Dmaj7 | E-7 A7 | Ab7#11 |
C
| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 Ab7#11 |
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,477
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Anybody with jazzed up chords to Winter Wonderland? I'm playing this on Friday and so I came up with my own changes. I hope I got the modulations right.
Winter Wonderland (Key of G)
A
{:| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 |:}
B
| C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 | C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 |
| E-7 A7 | Dmaj7 | E-7 A7 | Ab7#11 |
C
| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 Ab7#11 |
In the 4th bar get to D7 on beat three then in bar five C#7sus F#7 (or Cmaj) I Bsusb9 E7 (or Bb7#11) I Am7 D7 I Gmaj In your B section you could do a pedal F# for 4 bars then pedal A for a few too. I love Winter Wonderland. Christmas Song is even better though.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,477
1000 Post Club Member
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jeez, I know I will. I thought the song was just a melancholic thingy. Time to add some more b9 chords and bitter-sweet voicings. Not only that, but according to my research into the song, it "should" be played as a ballad It sounds like it should be a ballad to me too. I used to play this tune at a Rib House (BBQ stuff) and I was the sing a long pianist, but no one ever told me I was playing it too fast, and these were older generation regular customers that probably heard the original when it was released. Oh, and Chris, I've sent you a PM.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
7000 Post Club Member
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OP
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203 |
Anybody with jazzed up chords to Winter Wonderland? I'm playing this on Friday and so I came up with my own changes. I hope I got the modulations right.
Winter Wonderland (Key of G)
A
{:| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 |:}
B
| C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 | C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 |
| E-7 A7 | Dmaj7 | E-7 A7 | Ab7#11 |
C
| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 Ab7#11 |
In the 4th bar get to D7 on beat three then in bar five C#7sus F#7 (or Cmaj) I Bsusb9 E7 (or Bb7#11) I Am7 D7 I Gmaj In your B section you could do a pedal F# for 4 bars then pedal A for a few too. I love Winter Wonderland. Christmas Song is even better though. Thanks man. Pedal -- probably doesn't sound too good in a band setting? Sounds like a solo piano approach. Are these changes you made yourself or is it from some other source? I just did this by ear.
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What chord would best represent a prostitute leaving her johns i wonder? Maybe a Db7sharp9, or a Abdim7 with added major 7th. Or maybe just a plain old F major. [/quote]
Ya, good question. I think chords with ambiguity may fit the bill though. However, sometimes the simpler the better, with the right voicing and touch, will always win out.
Depends on the day. I guess it depends on the johns too...
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Anybody with jazzed up chords to Winter Wonderland? I'm playing this on Friday and so I came up with my own changes. I hope I got the modulations right.
Winter Wonderland (Key of G)
A
{:| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 |:}
B
| C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 | C#-7 F#7 | Bmaj7 |
| E-7 A7 | Dmaj7 | E-7 A7 | Ab7#11 |
C
| Gmaj7 | E-7 A7 | A-7 | Ab7#11 |
| A-7 | F#-7b5 B7b9 | A-7 D7 | Gmaj7 Ab7#11 |
I play it in Eb, sometimes F. Never used those changes on the *A* sections. In your key try. [: Gmaj7 C7 | Bm7 E7 | Am11 | D7 (an Ab triad in the rh over the 1-b7 in the lh is a nice effect) | C#m7b5 add4 C7 | Bm7 Bb9 | Am7 D7 | on the FIRST ENDING | Bm7 E7 Am7 D7 | or | Gmaj7 Am7/D | or if you wanna get real fancy | Gmaj7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 :] on the SECOND ENDING going to the bridge it's | Gmaj 7 F#13b9 (try LH 1-b7 RH Eb triad. The bridge STARTS on the Bmaj7...so ||Bmaj7 C#m7/ F# | repeat | repeat | Bmaj7 Em7 A7 | Dmaj7 Em7/A | Dmaj7 Eb dim. | Em9 A7 | Am11 D7 || Last 8. Alternate 1st two bars (which obviously can be used instead of what is written at the top) |Gmaj7 Am11/D | Gmaj7 Ab dim. | the rest is simile to the top. I use the F# & A pedals in the bridge too sometimes. If the bass player has ears he should pick up on it.
Last edited by Dave Ferris; 12/05/11 04:53 PM. Reason: extra bar at the end of the bridge
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It sounds like it should be a ballad to me too. I used to play this tune at a Rib House (BBQ stuff) and I was the sing a long pianist, but no one ever told me I was playing it too fast, and these were older generation regular customers that probably heard the original when it was released.
The great thing about jazz is that we re-invent the tunes as we like when we play them. But actually the original recording is quite uptempo Gene Austin from 1926 ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO6PpD-tRLU
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Wow! The verse's too! Wicked. Turns the interpretation around. Leaving the Blackbird (Coal mine) and going to the Blue bird (country side: back home). Interesting.
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Thanks Dave F., will try it out. I have to play it in G for the singer.
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