Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum "Comparison" between 6f3 Grotrian and 7f6 Shigeru

I know that the comparison is not fair, I should compare the Grotrian 7f4 (MSRP 119,136) to Shigeru SK-7 7f6 (MSRP 97,500). There are so many different factors in place, so this is just a so-called "comparison".

Yesterday I went to my friend house to listen to his nearly one year old SK7. The piano is in a very high ceiling (around 8 to 9 meters), hard wood floor, glass window, asymmetric room connected with dinner room. My friend would play the piano together with Mozart's Concerto 23 (he used Music Minus One CD) so he opened the lid to maximum, there were so much resonance, then I suggested to close the lid. It was much better.

My Grotrian 6f3 (bought in 1991) is in a smaller room (7x7 meters), with carpet, furniture, window curtains ...

Sound: The SK7 sounds very nice, but not at its best because of the acoustic condition, high ceiling, glass window give so much resonance and I could not hear the pure sound from the SK7, if the piano is in a better acoustic room then it will be much better (but it will stay there because we live with different constraints at the same time). Therefore I can not give a good evaluation of the sound quality of the SK7, but I can say that my Grotrian has its own very special voice, different from SK7, and each one has its own strong and weak characteristics.

Touch: The SK7 (2012) is more sensitive than my Grotrian (1991), I have impression that the SK7 keys grasp my fingers, I don't know if Grotrian's actions of today is better or not.

Finition: The Grotrian beats SK7 in every aspects: Ebony is much better, strings, bolts of Grotrian are beauties to look at, the design, the details in every single aspect of Grotrian (woods, wools, soundboard, frame, painture ... you name it) are 1 or 2 levels above Shigeru ($20 K difference in price for the same size 7f6 -7f4 explain).

I would say Shigeru is very good for sound quality, touch; but design, logo need to be improved (it gives impression of overdo or underdo, not the right balance).

Grotrian has its own sound characteristics, very distinguished, but my piano's action need to be cranked-up or adjusted more to be as good as the SK7 of my friend.

And your point is?

Is there a question in your critique?

(s)marty,

It might be helpful for you to scale back on your efforts to manage posts, threads, and people in this forum. The place was doing fine before you got here.

A person has an experience and he wants to share it. He doesn't need you jumping on him with one of your johnny=on-the-sport replies. Let people breathe.

To the Great and Wonderful Dot:

The same way you are trying to censor me?

My points are:

- Key sensitive of Shigeru is excellent.

- Esthetic design, finition of Shigeru are still weak points. Japanese are well-known for their sensibility to harmony of different factors and I don't see it in Shigeru line. In this domain, Steinway is the best, very discrete, classy, hidden charm in its fantastic logo. The piano should not only sound excellent, but also look super, when we pay 5, 6 figure number, this is a must, no alternative.

- As explained, I can not give good evaluation of SK7 sound quality, but I believe that to put any good piano at its best quality level, we need to pay attention to all related factors: piano itself + overall acoustic conditions, one single missing link can affect the equation a lot. With 1/10 of the piano budget to improve room acoustic, or just pay more attention to the location, furniture, curtains ... then we can enhance 1/10 to 3/10 its sound quality. I would say that the sound of a SK7 is very balanced, clean, beautiful (7f6 oblige), I prefer this sound more than some German like Schimmel, Seiler, not sure when comparing it to Grotrian, Bechstein ... (personal taste here)

What's YOUR point. You've added nothing except to chide someone for a perfectly acceptable, on-topic relating of experiences. If you want to be a moderator, apply to Frank.

I haven't seen enough Shigerus to know if they are somewhat aesthetically lacking, but I do agree that once one reaches a certain price the piano should be both a great musical instrument and a beautiful piece of furniture.

May I say something here?

I don't feel that I was chided by Marty at all.

English is not mother-language of mine and of my wife, so when my wife goes to college in USA, she has to attend some English classes and she was reminded "what's the point?". This is the basic when writing an essay.

I'm software engineer and when I write user's manual, I love to have a clear, to-the-point style, so I sincerely appreciate Marty's remark, I agree that my points are not clear, well-cut.

The difficulty is that I want to share some experiences between piano-lovers, and when lovers of something (beers, wines, women, pianos ...) talk about their love, we don't need to be clear-cut, we just ... float, and this is engaging style, same as French people talk about sipping a good wine, they say "un brin de soupcon" (a bit of doubt).

Four vices that have been the ruin of many a man...

Rick

As we can see from below 2 links

http://www.shigerukawai.com/models/sk7.html
http://www.grotrian.de/en/ins_fl_concert.html

I have some personal, subjective opinions about the look of Shigeru:

- The logo of Shigeru (SK inside grand piano shape) is non-sense to me, and it’s not beautiful.

- In comparison to the Grotrian 7f4 (slightly smaller), the stick of Shigeru 7f6 looks too weak and fragile, it does not look balanced with the size of the piano, and gives me impression of a toothpick!

- Inside the Shigeru, they put a yellow plaque, it looks heavy, too jumpy to the eyes. My point here is the black color is a discrete color, this color goes along with other discrete components, not with huge, yellow, jump-to-the eye plaque. A 7f6 piano is very big inside people’s house, the black color make it become more discrete, not invasive, then suddenly a big yellow logo, or a big yellow plaque inside piano’s belly attracts our eyes and stuck in our retina because it’s big and yellow! I prefer reflections of hand movements on black shiny background, slightly lighted-up by a discrete logo like that of Steinway.

hoola: although you have admittedly compared apples to oranges you have done so in such a cogent manner as to carry it off. i for one appreciate your specificity, and your training in logic/programming, with "un brin de soupcon" for conversation's sake, serves you well when describing a passion.

I agree with Hoola that the Shigeru logo could be more elegant. But I looked at your links and I have to say that the I don't prefer the look of the castors on the Grotrian. They're huge! Maybe it's just the photo.

Thank you hoola for your defense.

The cabinetry design of a piano is an interesting discussion. Just as in all design, everyone has their own taste and preference. That's a good thing.

The Grotrian and the Shigeru have tonal pallets which are as different as contrasting architectural styles. I like both of them very much, for very different reasons. On the whole, I would tend to the Grotrian, however.

Hoola--the Shigeru you played and saw may be pre-2012. Did it look like the one in the link you provided (mahogany inner rim)? Please see photos of my recently acquired 2012 SK5 "concert series". The model number is actually SK5L.

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2010511/Re:%20SK5%20delivered;%20followup%20fr.html#Post2010511

Also see: http://www.shigerukawai.de/homepage_en.htm

The copper colored plate with the bird's eye maple inner rim is stunning. I don't think the interior placard is overbearing--and I usually have the lid partially closed most of the time. (Have you seen Petrof's??) I think your reference to the placard is a bid over the top. However, I agree that the Shigeru symbol ("SK" inside a piano form") is not an attractive graphic. I do like the script of the "Shigeru Kawai" on the fallboard, though.

I have had my piano for 2 months now. It has had only one tuning. I'm OK with the sound and tone now, but am looking forward to the MPA visit. The sound is not as uniform across the spectrum of octaves as I would like, but I hope the regulation by the MPA will improve this. I have not had the opportunity to play a Grotrian, but I have played Bechstein and Bosendorfer. The Bechstein was outstanding...but much more money than the Shigeru. It is my humble opinion that the piano ("sound") will not make up for major flaws in the pianist....so I didn't think I was worthy of a Bechstein or Bose...

I found the tones of Shigeru Kawai & Grotrian were towards opposite end.
Shigeru Kawai has a warm, rounded, waterdrop "shaped" tone through out the whole spectrum. with tbe clear trebe still sound full of warmth and beauty. has a "flawless tone"

I found Grotrian has an aggressive, dark,bronze almost devil like (in a good way) tone, and treble has a clear sound of attack, are extremely pleasing to my ears. However, for the particular 4 grotrians Ive played, I prefer the tone of Concertino to the medium sized grand (forgot which model).

Excellent descriptions, you would be an excellent salesman (there is a joke "he is so good, he can sell his mother-in-law to his father-in-law").

The SK7 is not mine, although it is not in an excellent acoustic environment, but I really like its sound. The feeling is exactly "Shigeru Kawai has a warm, rounded, waterdrop "shaped" tone through out the whole spectrum, with the clear treble still sound full of warmth and beauty, it has a "flawless tone" as you described; and I wonder what a Grotrian 7f4 would give out in this same place.

It took a few voicings before my Grotrian matched my house now (I have it for long time, but I moved from house to house so frequently that I did not want to voice it at all in its first 16 years), and in beginning it was harsh, aggressive.

Last year, before buying my Yamaha C2, I went to the music fair in Frankfurt, where I also tried out several pianos which I had no intention of buying (or to be precise: Not enough money to buy. ) Grotrian-Steinweg and Shigeru Kawai were among the pianos I tried.

I was not too impressed with the sound and action of the Shigeru Kawai. In fact, I liked the action of the Kawai RX-series better. But then, I also liked the action of Bechstein Academy better than of C.Bechstein, so this is just my personal taste. The sound of Shigeru Kawai is a bit mellow to my ears. I like clear metallic sounds better.

The two Grotrian-Steinwegs I tried were the Chambre (165 cm long) and the Cabinet (190 cm long; probably the model hoola has). I was disappointed by the Chambre. Sounded like an average baby grand, and the action and key tops could have been more agreeable to my touch. The Cabinet, however, was a piano I really liked. Good sound, good action.

If I had to choose between a Grotrian-Steinweg Cabinet or Charis and a Shigeru Kawai SK-5 or SK-6, I'd probably go for Grotrian-Steinweg.
But then, if I had the money to buy any of these pianos, maybe I'd make a different choice anyway; because the piano which I played on the music fair which to me came closest to being the perfect piano was a Fazioli F183. Everything about it was just fabulous. Action, feeling of keys, sound... Maybe the bass could have been a bit stronger; but there are bigger Faziolis on the market.

The Mozart's Concerto 23 flows well with my friend's SK7 like oil, my friend likes SK7 because he is a perfect match with Shigeru's action. The most important factor that made he choose Shigeru is the action that he qualified one of the bests in the world, and Shigeru's action fits his needs from beginning "à la perfection".

I remember reading books that a lot of people like Gould, Horowitz needed to ask technicians to twist their piano's action to meet their needs, meaning there are ranges of things on action to do, but it costs money.

Same for sound, there will be things to do to push them to "perfect" sound, a "perfect" piano in shops can be much better after extra works at home, and we should do this gradually.

What an average customer usually choose is a piano which's hung between budget, sound, touch, look factors. We can not do anything on look, take it or leave it, or take it and always try to live with its look; budget is depending owner's pulse and timing (the Cabinet made me so broke after the purchase, no more vacation to destination when I wanted, but I am always happy and tell myself: only when I was young, crazy and could not play piano then I dare to do it).

Sound & touch: I think we can twist these 2 factors and change about 30% their characteristics (these are just my numbers, not based on any papers, researches)

When great pianists of the stature of the late Earl Wild and Mikhail Pletnev unequivocally acclaim Shigeru Kawai pianos, I think that Kawai must be getting it right. Grotian pianos have a very distinguished reputation and are among the world's best.
I see this comparison as looking at two very different, yet outstanding pianos and preference for one or the other will be subjective.

Robert.

I find Grotrian grands to be mono-chromatic in tonal color. All of the Grotrian grands I have seen have bridge cracks in the portion of the scale where the back bridge pins line up with the front bridge pins of the note below. They use too large bridge pins and they need to place the back pins in a pattern that avoids lining up with adjacent pins. It is difficult for me to understand how they can continue with a defective design like this for seemingly decades. Their uprights are among the worlds best.

The Shigerus I have played are better musical instruments in my opinion. (Note; I do not sell or service pianos for a Kawai dealer). The low inertia of the action and the responsive scales are among the worlds best in my opinion. I don't like the victorian legs as a standard item. They should design a truly elegant case. This is true of most of the asian origin pianos. Things are just heavy and clunky looking in general. The small grands have very thick and deep rims that are structurally un-needed.