Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum "In, Out, and Through"?

I think that even without taking into account the fact that some children only stick with it because their parents tell them to, it would be fair to say that there are many children to whom 'in, out and through' applies, as well.

Yesterday, I joked with my piano teacher that she must have taught half of all Dutch-speaking children in Brussels at one point or another, and that she must be a scary lady because they all quit. That's of course not true on either count. But it is true that I personally know at least fifteen people under the age of twenty who took piano lessons at some point, and then quit. And no, they did not in fact all have the same teacher. My guess is, some of them gathered quite a few fond memories during their piano lessons, which will spur them to take it back up later, as adults — the same way I did.

As others have said, though, there isn't much weight in anecdotal evidence — no more of it in mine than in this professor's. What we really need are actual numbers. Once we have those, then we can seriously discuss the discrepancies (or lack thereof) in the percentage of adults versus children who persevere, and the reasons for any such descrepancies.

Or perhaps "In, Out, and Through" is a reflection of an individual teacher's lack of skill at teaching and engaging adult students.

Or perhaps the student's lack of talent, dedication, or a work ethic.

She is a specialist in the field of "andragogy" and former head of an Adult Learning Committee. "Andragogy" = learning strategies focused on adults.

So apparently this person is either teaching adults, or teaching how to teach adults.

For learning how to play the piano in a basic way, talent is not needed. Of course, if a student does have talent, then he can survive weak teaching since he'll be teaching himself, but bad teaching may be more destructive since he can absorb more of wrong advice.

Dedication and work ethic may be a factor for an individual, but not for a group. Especially if you teach one group differently from another group, and one of them is failing, then you have to question this different way of teaching. And there are often differences.

An interesting thing about "androgeny" is that what they say about teaching adults include many things that I would want to see for all students, including young ones.

The comparison of adults to children shouldn't even be considered here. Many children are told to take piano lessons. It isn't a free choice of their own.

The analogy of exercise to piano is a good one. The IOT is extremely common in exercise. There is a vicious cycle of In, injured, Out, recover, back again. Also of burn out. People don't know what they are doing. Many trainers try to make the people happy to keep them. What they need to be told. They won't like.
When people get older. They must lift correctly. They cannot cheat like younger people. Their bodies don't repair quickly. People must do mobility work. They must get into some kind of yoga. This all is required for exercise/strength work. And don't keep doing the same thing the same way all the time. That's overuse injury.

This is something that impressed me in piano. Read a book where the teacher/writer talked about physiology. I related to that intimately. I could understand what incorrect form does. I then had to find a good teacher. This book also gave me a good idea what I'm in for in piano. What the book didn't. Talking to my teacher let me know the rest. And boy...am I in for it. Like going to college part time. For years. I can't help it. I hunger for it. I wish to end up composing.

The mention of instant gratification. May I expand on that? Many people are simply actors. They think they act the part and they are it. They won't accept hard work in their life to do something. They want to be entertained is all.

I do think what the OP brought up is probably correct. There are different reasons for this. Also, we need to admit that the people we talk to here are not represented by the people who quit.

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I still want to see the data!


This point raises a more interesting question...Do adults who participate in some community of learners sustain interest longer or have more success than those who do not? (not implying causation, just looking for a correlation).

Oh...I get the theory now.
It's like a mid life crisis. We have the biggest nursery of mid life crisis' on the planet. Over a half million fat old people on Harley's in August. The Sturgis Rally.
That theory makes sense now!

The more I looked a this, the more I found it confusing, so finally I got it from the horse's mouth. Professor Michelle Condo was kind enough to clarify, and has given me permission to quote her:

When you say "In-Out-Through," this is a theory presented by one proponent of adult learning. It says people join piano lessons because they are going through some sort of transition in their life, such as death, retirement, empty nest. When they are past the transition, they often drop things they "tried" during that time because they didn't discover the deeper meaning on why they are doing the new activity.

This transitional theory was only one of 10 I presented at the conference. One of the others was that adults have a "need" to take piano that transcends this. And another was that many many adults are "Serious" about their piano study, and should be treated thusly.

(Michelle Condo)

I have had BOTH kinds of adult students. The in out and through ones often confound me. With some it is obvious from the first or second lesson that this is the "hobby of the month". There is never much practice, often a lot of "excuses" that are simply about not making any kind of commitment.

But there also adults who start out "great guns", really seeming to be passionate, then some month they are gone, often without even a reason.

Now, if you are fortunte enough to have a few adults who are committed, long-term, then you may have ideal students. I have had a few of them from time to time, and they are a joy.

But if you think that what you see in PW is the norm, where MANY people eat drink and sleep piano, I'd say you have a skewed idea of what we deal with in the "real world".

keystring, thank you for finding this out and sharing the answer with us! This makes much, much, much, MUCH more sense. I would be interested to know what the other 7 theories were.

I have no doubt that, yes, some adults are IOT based on a life event, and some adults are hobbyists in the sense of looking for something fun but not tooooooo demanding, and some adults are seriously committed, and some adults really would like to play piano and know more about music but just have too much life circumstances going on for the level of commitment needed to meet their goals, and some adults will have a financial crisis and have to quit lessons, and some adults have limited goals which they will meet quickly (not speaking against having limited goals, it's just that you might, with any activity, discover after X amount of time that you've learned enough to satisfy you in that area), and, and, and. I can't think of other possibilities, but I'm sure there must be a lot.

Anyway, this sounds really good from her and I wish I'd been at the talk. (In contrast, I didn't actually like that article from her that keystring found earlier, but I'll have to talk about that later after I've had supper.)

I understand the "through" as being when you are "through" a life event that caused you to take up piano in order to deal with that event. (ONE of the reasons for taking piano lessons). So you lose a spouse, for example, and you think that piano lessons will ease the pain, and for a while it does. Maybe you will start loving piano for its own sake. Or maybe once your life feels less empty, you don't need piano lessons anymore to fill that emptiness. That is how I understand this one (of 10) categories, which was the "in-out-through".

I use internet forums for that!

"...going through some sort of transition in their life, such as death..."

Well, there's death, and then there's death. If the former, the piano teacher has a lot of crust to complain about it.

But the latter, one could also describe as the famous song does: "The Thrill is Gone." I will say that my last two piano teachers have run onto the rocks because the adult learner is a very different species to the young. One was far too impatient, and downright mean. I do not find that the mind opens to such a person.

The second was a young person, very talented and a nice guy. It is understandable that a brilliant young person, with such a wonderful gift and facility, might become bored with an older learner who has to work a lot harder to get things to go in. I think he believed that pushing harder and harder for fast progress was what I wanted... but it wasn't.

Well, I gave both of them a very excellent chance, over a long period, and worked very hard. They may complain that I am In and Out (as far as they are concerned), but I am not Through. However, if I look for another teacher some time in the future, I will try to find one who is able to adapt the instruction to what I need, rather than demanding that I conform to what they expect.

In the meantime, I do keep learning without the benefit. The attitude of the teacher who gave this disparaging lecture, is one benefit which I can keep going without. I was not much impressed by her explanation, either.

"...I guess she was warning us that we shouldn't feel bad when adults quit lessons on us..."

Why not?

I do agree that PW posters are probably not representative of the "norm," whatever it may be, but instead heavily skewed by the POed among us (piano-obsessed, such as myself).

A more interesting question, IMO, is not how many adult piano students are IO&T, but rather what can piano teachers do in the beginning to increase the chances that adults stick with piano. I know that's been talked about here before, but I think one way to answer this question might be to see what characteristics we (the POed) share. For example, a love of practice. And a circle of (internet) piano-friends who act as a support group, as well as important peer-examples of success.

So rather than encouraging piano teachers to not be surprised when adult students quit, how about teaching how to look for ways to increase the chances that an adult will stick with piano?

To answer the OP's question, piano is an important part of my life, not a passing fad! I started piano as an adult and have now been playing for 14 years. During that time, the only periods without a teacher have been due to scheduling problems, and I've probably only been teacher-less for maybe a year total (I have a new teacher now because I finally found someone who can give me lessons at 8:30 in the morning on a Wednesday, so scheduling is definitely an issue!). I am definitely a NIOT and I imagine that I will always take lessons as long as I can fit them into my schedule. But at this point in my pianistic pursuits, whether or not I have a teacher is not likely to impact whether I continue playing.

ShiroKuro, did you read my recent post? The professor wrote back to clarify what was in her talk. She explained ten reasons why adults start lessons. One reason is when you are coping with a trauma such as the loss of a spouse, and you grasp at anything to ease the pain. So piano might happen to be the pill to help you get through the pain, and once you're through it, your interests change. This was one of ten reasons. Another reason for taking piano lessons was that you want to learn to play the piano.

Her point was to understand your student's reason for taking lessons, and use that to guide you in your teaching. Again, part of what she wrote in response was

Jeff has provided us with two glimpses of poor piano teaching, each of which is rather common. Many thanks. I'll just observe about teacher "A" that the person's abrasive teaching manner is no doubt practiced on children as well as on adults.

As for teacher "B," I'm not willing to concede that it *is* understandable for a fine pianist to become bored by an adult student, assuming that teacher is committed to teaching and not simply to a performing career. I see it as more a reflection of what a goodhearted fellow Jeff is, to assume blame needlessly.

I have little doubt that about the dearth of adult-centred piano teaching in Poland, nor about support for the adult amateur. Perhaps someday this will change.

But Kapelli has raised other worthwhile points in his post. In N. America, few piano teachers receive any training whatsoever, and far fewer give particular thought to the teaching of adults.
Consequently, it is adult students who tend to be doing the accommodating to the limitations of their teachers, not the reverse.