Plover, that was a cleaned-up version of what I should have said.

And I would like to register a further complaint, which I may take to the Supreme Court of Piano World: Why did you change my spelling of "you're" to the wrong thing?

I've never had a teacher play a recording for me.



I missed the part where Phil asked for a critique. But that aside, what Louis said was clear enough without the recording.
I'm sure Phil has plenty of favorite recordings that he can draw on if he wishes.


Okay then, what needs changing? If the opinion wasn't clear in words, what does the recording teach us? Does Rubinstein teach us the same, Horowitz, Cortot? What did the recording add? Sorry, it's just rude.

Teacher playing in a lesson is virtually the same as recording playing. And plenty of teaches play recordings for pupils or suggest they listen to recordings. I assume your teacher has played for you.

When someone posts a recording it's usually assumed they want comments. Otherwise, why start a thread? Many posters made comments about the recording so they must all have assumed comments were appropriate. Whether what Louis said was clear enough is a matter of opinion. But if words were always clear enough teachers wouldn't illustrate what they mean on the piano. Louis posted a particular recording to illustrate the point he was making which I think is far different from saying someone can go to YouTube and listen to random performances.

Louis chose a particular recording to illustrate his point. Another recording might or might not illustrate his point. I think asking what the recording adds is like asking why should a teacher ever illustrate their point on the piano. I don't think that words are always clear enough and, in fact, think they are often feeble compared to illustrating at the piano. What other reason would there be for teachers illustrating their point that way?

Louis was already in my ignore list. So I didn't read what he said. So, I agree with Mark's comment about him.

That said, since Carey is old friends with him and he does forgive him, what are we discussing here really?

I think it is just a flame war between others who have some past issues between them and using this thread as a leverage.

Please go fight somewhere else, will you!

Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO.
I would fire any teacher that directed me to a recording.



I don't think the posting of a recording without comment on specific things in that recording clarify anything that wasn't already clear. I disagree with your opinion that this compares to a teacher's approach.




I thought the words were plenty clear and the recording a vague illustration....and did I mention, RUDE!

For those that think listening to recordings whether suggested by a teacher or otherwise is not a good idea:

"So I think it's a great resource to be able to hear these recordings and to learn from them." Benjamin Grosvenor

So a couple of measures can be useful but not an whole piece? Only two measures is OK and helpful but three isn't? Or does it become not useful only after ten measures? If Louis had suggested listening to the first ten seconds of the video as an illustration of what he meant it would be useful?

Now I think you are willfully missing the point. There is no relationship between the INTERACTION of a teacher with their student and the posting of a professional performance. That doesn't mean there is nothing to be learned from a recording.
Quoting teenagers doesn't add gravity to your opinion.

Oddly, I did -- once. It was a bad teaching moment by a good teacher....well, an okay teacher.


I also find it hard to understand your difficulty in grasping the distinctions being talked about. What we're talking about here -- posting other recordings on threads like this, or teachers playing recordings for someone at lessons -- has nothing to do with the general thing of whether it's useful to listen to recordings. And that's besides what Damon said about quoting teenagers.

But of course it does. They(listening to a teacher play, listening to recordings played by teachers, listening to recordings suggested by posters) all involve learning from listening.

Your comment about Grosvenor makes it sound like he's some random teenager instead of one of the best pianists his age playing today. I assure you he will feel the same way about listening to recordings when he is twice his present age, and I wouldn't be surprised if his teacher suggested listening to recordings.

In your opinion it was a bad teaching moment. The teacher didn't think so.

The posting of the professional performance wasn't done in a vacuum. It was preceded by comments from the poster. These are equivalent to comments or interaction from a teacher. In addition, your reply does not seem to address my point that you seemed to think the number of measures was the important consideration.

Grosvenor is no longer a teenager and considered by many to be one of the greatest pianists of his generation. Your comment makes it sound like he's some random teenager who knows little about music. Surely you must have read about many great pianists saying how important it is to listen to and learn from to recordings.

Humor!! Humor!!
Ever heard of humor?

About the rest, I think this will do:

To post a recording in support of general comments is tantamount to saying "you should play it like this guy". It's rude. Teachers show you how to do something or explain why you should do something. This is nothing like that. The number of measures is beside the point.


Sorry, I missed his last birthday. Perhaps you can quote the great pianists who have said this. Not that it matters because it still doesn't apply to this situation.

But your previous post seems to indicate you thought the number of measures was important.

If you read Louis' first post or two he clearly explains why he thinks certain changes are needed... just like you say teachers should do. He doesn't just say play it like this guy without giving reasons for his thinking. Teachers often demonstrate what they are saying which is in effect saying they think "it should be done like this". Posting a recording is IMO no different.


It's not a fact that it doesn't apply although you state this as if it were...it's only your opinion. I certainly think it applies which is why I mentioned it.

Numerous pianists have talked about the importance of listening to other recordings. The only specific one I remember is Irina Morozova, but I do know as a fact I've heard it said countless times. In fact, I think it's basically a given for a serious musician. In books where pianists are interviewed it's extremely common for them to mention specific pianists they've listened to and learned from.

Do you actually think Grosvenor is wrong when he says it's important/useful to listen to recordings of other pianists...that one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what's important and useful?

It seemed that way to you.



Yes I agree it was pretty arrogant (and rude) for Louis to presume to school Phil in this fashion. I'm glad you agree that Louis explained clearly what he thought was lacking before posting the recording.


I agree that it is useful especially if you are a lazy reader, important, not so much. Particularly since you can't listen to a professional recording that isn't "fixed" in a number of ways (except maybe Cortot). If Grosvenor credits his CD MP3 collection for his abilities, in any manner, then yes, one of the best young pianists on the planet has misconceptions about what is important.
I'm sure you can find a large number of jazz pianists that do this since their language is built upon stealing each others riffs. Are you sure Morozova isn't just the only classical example you can remember?

Go ahead and have the last word. We will continue to have opposing views on this subject.

I think you did a fine job!

You said "Yes my teacher had played for me, but it was always a couple of measures to explain specifically what he meant. The posting of an entire performance has no relationship to this, IMO."

I didn't say it was arrogant or rude or that Louis was "schooling" Phil. Louis made suggestions, explained his reasons for the suggestions, and then posted a recording that he felt illustrated what he was saying.


When world class pianists advocate listening to recordings it has nothing to do with be a lazy reader. The reason is simple...they think there is something to learn from other great pianists. Of course, Grosvenor doesn't credit his abilities solely to his listening to recordings. That's simply one of the many things he has done to learn about music.

I clearly stated in my last post that Morozova was the only specific example(besides Grosvenor)I could remember who talked about the importance of listening to recordings, and I also clearly stated that I had read countless comments in books about other pianists that expressed the same opinion. This kind of comment from pianists is ubiquitous.

Neither jazz pianists nor classical pianists invent the wheel in terms of playing. They both take ideas from teachers, other musicians, recordings, and concerts and use them in whatever way they think appropriate.

This thread certainly took on a life of its own.......

Louis and I have continued to communicate through PMs. He's introduced me to some wonderful recordings by pianist Mieczyslaw Horszowski.

The recording that Louis posted in this thread by French pianist Thierry de Brunhoff was made in 1973 - a year before de Brunhoff entered the Benedictine Monastery where he has lived as a member for 40 years. Through a little research, I was delighted to learn that Thierry's father Jean, an artist, and mother Cecile, a pianist, were the co-creators of the Babar the Elephant series of children's books in the early 1930s - which I fondly recall enjoying 60 years ago as a young child. Until this week I had no idea about the origin of those popular books.

I do want to thank folks here for their supportive comments - and suggestions. When the dust settles a bit, I'm going to re-record the Nocturne to see if, indeed, I can improve on this initial effort.