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The tuner in the Kawai shop tried that on a second-hand RX-2 of which I found the overtones objectionable (muting by putting felt in between the strings in the duplex scale). It didn't work out.
I can't say that I've had a lot of trouble with the RX-2 and RX-6. Although, back when I had the GM-12, there was this ringing overtone in the bass ( a G-note, I think) and several techs just couldn't get rid of it. They eventually concluded that it was inherent in the piano. I heard it on other GM-12s, too.
I guess the overtones are just a part of the Kawai sound?
I've heard of these purported offensive "overtones" by one other member on these boards a couple of years back. I did an internet search as suggested and the google search came up with one thread on PW about Kawai overtones, he blasted Estonia pianos with the same claim- it all seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me at the time and I never heard about em since. My RX-2 doesn't appear to generate any offensive overtones, I think the overall tone is fabulous- but that doesn't make it an infallible piano. We have an accomplished pianist above who pointed out some registers on his piano that could be more stable.
Norbert brought up a point in his thread on how one measure improvements. I think was very difficult to "improve" upon the RX-2 to begin with, at it's price point IMO it's probably the best piano out there. How do you improve upon something that's nearly perfect for the people it was designed for? The improvements will only be slight and incremental.
Instead of discussing the pros and cons of "redesign" the magic bullet to noticeably improve a pianos tone [and touch..] IMHO is often a first class technician.
People forget that, with very few exceptions, pianos are not complete products when shipped from factory.
It's nice to have a "new design" but the underlying question is always what exactly has been "improved".
Unless one starts out from a pretty scrappy base,the increments of improvements are not always universally noticeable.
If it was otherwise, a discussion like the above would not be necessary.
People forget that, with very few exceptions, pianos are not complete products when shipped from factory.
One of the few products I can think of that are like that. It's pretty sad when the manufacturer expects us to buy their (incomplete) product for anywhere from $1K - $100+K.
The touch difference is quite noticeable, especially in the smaller grands. The added inch (approx) in the key length has more affect in the smaller pianos.
The keys are the same amount longer than the equivalent RX of the same model. So the GX-6 keys are about an inch longer than the RX-6, etc. The way you can feel the improvement is to play the keys repeatedly (not especially fast, just repeat at a comfortable speed) and move your finger from front to back on the key. There is always a difference in touch resistance in piano keys from front to back, but with longer key lengths the difference becomes smaller. This is one reason pianists prefer to have a 7-foot sized grand for practice if possible. So in the smaller grands (GX-1, GX-2, GX-3) you get the most benefit of the longer keys. If you do this test on an RX, then move to the equivalent GX you can feel the difference.
Just to elaborate my last post. I felt the change from my 2005 RX-2 to the current RX-2 Blak was an incremental change- so I was not interested in upgrading to the blak series.
But as Don describes the changes to the GX line IMO appear substantial- which is why I asked if anyone who has owned the RX-2 got to compare the GX and RX so I can make a better informed decision whether or not to consider upgrading. From Don's post above they are not going to be available in showrooms until late March.
I'm interested in the longer key lengths in the new GX line. The way I see it Kawai kept the action pretty much the same but by extending the key length an inch they are giving the pianist a substantial mechanical advantage by lengthening the lever arm so the pianist can generate more torque as he strikes the key. In physics class we learned that Torque= Force applied X lever arm. In this case the lever arm is the length of the key. A good analogy is trying to loosen or tighten a nut with a socket wrench that has a 10 inch handle versus the 14 inch handle. The 14 inch handle gives you mechanical advantage of a longer lever arm so the force required is less. As Don also pointed out above, it is also true that most graduate students prefer to play the larger grands during practice- simply because it more closely approximated the feel of the larger grand once in concert. All things being equal the touch should be lighter and more even with the piano with longer keys. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the basic concept or have I simplified it too much?)
I see the GX line as (possibly) a welcoming addition for the serious pianist who wants or needs the action of a concert grand but doesn't have space (or maybe money) to house a 7 or 9 foot grand. The lengthened keys may IN THEORY make it easier for a pianist to play more physically demanding pieces. They already had a phenomenal action there was no reason to "reinvent the wheel" just to produce a lighter action. Yet at the same time by lengthening the keys it gives the added advantage of replicating the feel and dimensions of the keys a performer might feel while on stage. Pretty forward thinking if you ask me.
And very intriguing, but at the same time kind of risky eh? - for a line of pianos that have been so successful? Seems like its kind of a radical change if anything- thus the new name? Questions remain: will most pianists like the "improved" touch- playing a 5'11 grand with the illusionary feel of a 7 foot grand. I'm sure Kawai did extensive marketing research with professional pianists or at least I hope so. While not necessarily as revolutionary thinking as utilizing carbon fiber in their actions this again represents Kawai's commitment to innovation- hopefully in the right direction. I can't wait to try one of these babies out!
As a very happy pre-Millenium III RX-2 owner, I really don't see any reason to upgrade to another RX. My piano holds its tune extremely well, has a wonderful tone with an amazing bass for such a short piano, has a firm and wonderfully responsive action that allows you to articulate whatever you want and can, looks great and is paid for. Why would I want to trade and wind up with something that is potentially less satisfying? I find myself more and more attached to my instrument.
Is my RX-2 ownership experience such an exception to the rule?
I would think that the market for these things is more people looking for their first grand rather than obsessive-compulsive gear acquisition and replacement syndrome based on incremental improvements. Maybe I'm wrong.
The touch difference is quite noticeable, especially in the smaller grands. The added inch (approx) in the key length has more affect in the smaller pianos.
The keys are the same amount longer than the equivalent RX of the same model. So the GX-6 keys are about an inch longer than the RX-6, etc. The way you can feel the improvement is to play the keys repeatedly (not especially fast, just repeat at a comfortable speed) and move your finger from front to back on the key. There is always a difference in touch resistance in piano keys from front to back, but with longer key lengths the difference becomes smaller. This is one reason pianists prefer to have a 7-foot sized grand for practice if possible. So in the smaller grands (GX-1, GX-2, GX-3) you get the most benefit of the longer keys. If you do this test on an RX, then move to the equivalent GX you can feel the difference.
Just to elaborate my last post. I felt the change from my 2005 RX-2 to the current RX-2 Blak was an incremental change- so I was not interested in upgrading to the blak series.
But as Don describes the changes to the GX line IMO appear substantial- which is why I asked if anyone who has owned the RX-2 got to compare the GX and RX so I can make a better informed decision whether or not to consider upgrading. From Don's post above they are not going to be available in showrooms until late March.
I'm interested in the longer key lengths in the new GX line. The way I see it Kawai kept the action pretty much the same but by extending the key length an inch they are giving the pianist a substantial mechanical advantage by lengthening the lever arm so the pianist can generate more torque as he strikes the key. In physics class we learned that Torque= Force applied X lever arm. In this case the lever arm is the length of the key. A good analogy is trying to loosen or tighten a nut with a socket wrench that has a 10 inch handle versus the 14 inch handle. The 14 inch handle gives you mechanical advantage of a longer lever arm so the force required is less. As Don also pointed out above, it is also true that most graduate students prefer to play the larger grands during practice- simply because it more closely approximated the feel of the larger grand once in concert. All things being equal the touch should be lighter and more even with the piano with longer keys. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the basic concept or have I simplified it too much?)
I see the GX line as (possibly) a welcoming addition for the serious pianist who wants or needs the action of a concert grand but doesn't have space (or maybe money) to house a 7 or 9 foot grand. The lengthened keys may IN THEORY make it easier for a pianist to play more physically demanding pieces. They already had a phenomenal action there was no reason to "reinvent the wheel" just to produce a lighter action. Yet at the same time by lengthening the keys it gives the added advantage of replicating the feel and dimensions of the keys a performer might feel while on stage. Pretty forward thinking if you ask me.
And very intriguing, but at the same time kind of risky eh? - for a line of pianos that have been so successful? Seems like its kind of a radical change if anything- thus the new name? Questions remain: will most pianists like the "improved" touch- playing a 5'11 grand with the illusionary feel of a 7 foot grand. I'm sure Kawai did extensive marketing research with professional pianists or at least I hope so. While not necessarily as revolutionary thinking as utilizing carbon fiber in their actions this again represents Kawai's commitment to innovation- hopefully in the right direction. I can't wait to try one of these babies out!
I think this is a very complex problem. There are so many variables in play, it's hard to say how much of an effect a 2cm increase in key length will have. What is the the original key length? Is the fulcrum in the same place? The lever arm is not the total key length; it's the length from the fulcrum to the applied force. Also, longer keys (presumably) mean more mass, so more inertia to overcome.
You mean to tell me it took all these years of piano making to realize that the keys should've been 2 cm longer? Maybe there is a significant difference, but maybe not. With it's 10,000 moving parts working in harmony, a piano is a very complex mechanical device. How does one know that by changing key length, other aspects of the piano aren't affected? Hopefully Kawai put a lot of research into this, but in our "bigger is better" society, you have to be a little skeptical.
As a very happy pre-Millenium III RX-2 owner, I really don't see any reason to upgrade to another RX. My piano holds its tune extremely well, has a wonderful tone with an amazing bass for such a short piano, has a firm and wonderfully responsive action that allows you to articulate whatever you want and can, looks great and is paid for. Why would I want to trade and wind up with something that is potentially less satisfying? I find myself more and more attached to my instrument.
Is my RX-2 ownership experience such an exception to the rule?
I would think that the market for these things is more people looking for their first grand rather than obsessive-compulsive gear acquisition and replacement syndrome based on incremental improvements. Maybe I'm wrong.
You mean to tell me it took all these years of piano making to realize that the keys should've been 2 cm longer?
Key lengths have varried greatly throughout the history of piano building. It is not that the concept was just figured out, it just was a manufacturer who decided to provide a longer key in shorter models of grands, to match the action of their concert grands. The physics of the modern piano action have been understood for a long time.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Did you have it voiced? Tell your tech to really have at it. When I had an RX2, my tech did quite a bit of voicing.
I've actually had a lot of voicing done on my RX-6. The entire upper half of the keyboard needed it. The first few times, it didn't seem to last long at all. Not sure if it is the Kawai hammers, or what, but my tech was needling away last time, and he noticed some brightness returning right after he worked on them. He also commented that some of the hammers were very hard. Every time I've had it tuned, I've also had him voice down large sections in the treble. When I had an RX-2, it needed a lot of voicing at first, too.
[/quote] You mean to tell me it took all these years of piano making to realize that the keys should've been 2 cm longer? Maybe there is a significant difference, but maybe not. With it's 10,000 moving parts working in harmony, a piano is a very complex mechanical device. How does one know that by changing key length, other aspects of the piano aren't affected? Hopefully Kawai put a lot of research into this, but in our "bigger is better" society, you have to be a little skeptical. [/quote]
I thought the same thing- in principle it all seems like a pretty straight forward concept, but people also thought the only thing man needed to fly was a pair of wings. It took the Wright brothers and possibly some obscure Brazilian to actually make it work. Maybe Kawai figured out how to make- what on the surface appears to be an easy concept- actually work. They're betting their top piano lines on it, so I imagine they're pretty confident it will take off.
This video shows that your piano need phasing of hammers and strings (fitting hammers to strings so all three are struck at the same time), and a good solid tuning. Then some judicious needling of the hammers.
Some of what you are hearing though is inherent to the state of the art of duplex scales. You might be interested in searching for my PW posts about my new invention called the "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" which solves these issues.
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