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The Base: A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4 A3-E4: OK E4-A4: slow A3-D4: OK D4-A4: fast
Thirds: A3-C#4: OK A#3:D4: OK B3-D#4: slow C4-E4: Slow C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval. D4-F#4: OK D#4-G4: OK E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd! F4-A4: slow
Fourths A3-D4: OK A#3-D#4: OK B3-E4: slow C4-F4: slow C#4-F#4: slow D4-G4: fast D#4-G#4: slow E4-A4: slow
Fifths A3-E4: ok A#3-F4: too just B3-F#4: slow C4-G4: fast C#4-G#4: ok D4-A4: fast
Raise A4, F4, G#4, Drop C4
The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.
Regards, Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?
Weiyan, you may have discussed this before but I am too lazy to go back though the thread: What is the CHAS method and sequence you use for tuning the temperament octave - 5ths, 4ths RBI checks etc etc?
Chris Leslie, a joined this thread years after the starting of this thread.
The sequence: A4->A3 A3->D4 1bps(D4-A4 near pure) A4->E4 1.5beats/2sec (E4-A4 2bps) E4->B3 B3->F#4 F#4->C#4 C#4->G#4 G#4->D#4 D#4->A#3 A#3->F4 F4->C4 D4->G4
Tne octave and first two intervals are call base. Thirds and fourths progressive br. Fifths regressive br. That begins at A3-E4 1.5b/2sec to near pure at D4-A4.
Pls. correct it if any mistake.
Regards, Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Thanks Weiyan. I was just wondering if you use 3rds and 6ths as checks and guides during the sequence, or just to test afterwards. What does CHAS say about this?
Yes, also during the sequence you have to compare 4ths, 5ths, 3ds and (possibly) 6ths. Have a look at the flowchart (edit: Thanks to Ernest Unrau and Isaac Oleg) and let us know.
Weiyan,
Now I'm going to listen to your latest recordings and post some comments.
The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:
Originally Posted by Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.
The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.
Regards, Weiyan
First, you flatten A3... good; - then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good; - then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);
(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;
at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat; at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time; at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*); at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...
In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;
while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge; the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.
A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)
You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise; at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise"; at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good; at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin; between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.
Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.
Regards, a.c.
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.
Alfredo,
Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.
Hi Weiyan,
Thanks for your feedback, try to relax your ear and do Not think "trust", your ear will refine "in time"; in general, concentrate more on your (most natural) breathing and arm/body posture.
Let's go on with the "base" video/recording for some addings.
A3-E4:
at 0:59 you raise E4... good; you then go towards the spot, but... is E4 flat? Remember, while charging the pin you must (slowly) pass the (pure/just) spot, so you make sure that E4 is flat;
at 1:10 you go onto A3-D4;
when you move your hammer, try to play only one time;
at 1:15 you flatten D4... good, be more delicate, you only need to uncharge the pin, and then raise; at 1:17 you hear the spot and feel the pin, very very good!! you raise D4, good; from 1:21 to 1:24/25 you charge the pin... good, next time make that slower; follow the beat closely, how the beat slows down.. until you can count/sing the beat, while still charging the pin, get the just-spot and release the hammer, check D4 (at least) 1/bps sharp; in that video is too close to just.
Please, have a look at the Pre-sequence (linked above)... A3-E4 is very little narrow, and after A#3-F4, I tune D4-G4 (close to E4-A4, in between the two adiacent fourths), and relate C4 to G4 and F4.
Next:
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Originally Posted by Weiyan
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.
In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....
Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.
The Base: A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4 A3-E4: OK E4-A4: slow A3-D4: OK D4-A4: fast
Thirds: A3-C#4: OK A#3:D4: OK B3-D#4: slow C4-E4: Slow C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval. D4-F#4: OK D#4-G4: OK E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd! F4-A4: slow
Fourths A3-D4: OK A#3-D#4: OK B3-E4: slow C4-F4: slow C#4-F#4: slow D4-G4: fast D#4-G#4: slow E4-A4: slow
Fifths A3-E4: ok A#3-F4: too just B3-F#4: slow C4-G4: fast C#4-G#4: ok D4-A4: fast
Raise A4, F4, G#4, Drop C4
The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.
When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.
Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.
Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".
So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.
Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.
Thanks Alfredo. I was only wondering if Weiyan was actually doing the RBI checks during temperament setting and not afterwards.
Surely do FBI checking when available. The first available is A3-F#4 sixth, then A3-C#4, B3-G#4, B3-D4. The progressiveness of these FBI not guarantee the intonation of the tuning for all of them are depend on B3-F#4. So there is always left the gap of C4-F4, C4-G4. Analysis these gap to decide if F#4 is too high or too low.
In coming days will focus on the base.
Should you share some of your experience?
Last edited by Weiyan; 03/16/1308:05 PM.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Thanks. Keep up the good momentum with Alfredo. I would also establish a progressive sequence of M3rds, F3,A3,C#4,F4,A4, because that gives another base that works well as handles with your sequence. But that is just my preference.
I believe the inconsistancies we her are due to Weyan just gttin the felling or pin setting lately. Good pin setting make the tone more pure, it is then easier to listen for beats. So now it is taking place for you, Weyan.
You are right to work on temperament base, that first octave have to shine, it is not easy to get a feel for that.
(the standard test M3 M10 can help you at last to be sure he octave is in the good direction if you are unsure , but we take the habit to tune octaves directly, and look more in progressiveness than comparative checks that are sometime surprising (and make the ear tired sooner) Any FBI is helping to be sure of tge slow intervals and octave.
Yes ladder of M3 is easier for listening to pogressiveness, but gives no idea of the octave size, which seem to be wher the trouble is.
Even with 4 th and 5th the octave can be secured, and it is particularely necessary with Chas, due to the pivot point .
Greetings
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
When you tune A3, make sure that A3-A4 is actually wide: once the A3-A4 pins are "charged", you can (delicately) exert some pression and see if the beat slows down or accelerates. This test is valid and due for any interval.
Tune E4 by relating it to both A3 and A4, you didn't do that (in the video (1:10)); you want the A3-E4-A4 relation, together with A3-D4-A4, at the beginning of the sequence, be your reference (temporarely) for continuing your procedure.
Tune D4 by relating it to both A3 and A4... Remember, it is not three intervals, A3-A4, A3-E4, A3-D4... It is "squaring five intervals", drafting their symmetric (A3-D4 Vs E4-A4) and overlapping (A3-E4 Vs D4-A4) relation, that's the meaning of the "base".
So doing, in between A3 and A4 you can rule the 4ths and 5ths (beat rate) extremities.
Before we go on, please confirm that the above is clear.
Thanks, Chris and Isaac.
Regards, a.c. .
That is how the base, i.e. five beat-rates interweaved "all in one", help me define one more fundamental interval, the tone, in this case D4-E4.
In other words, the tone is the result of precise "proportions", the beat relations I have established between five beat frequencies, strictly interlaced.
These proportions involve 2:1 (the octave), 3:2 (the fifth) and 4:3 (the fourth), and those small numbers are employed in the Chas equality: (3-Delta)=(4+s*Delta)
From these premises - interweaving all intervals (and beat progressions) inside and outside the A3-A4 octave - you are enabled to reduce approximations and choose/adopt the most convenient pre-Form, whatever the size of the piano.
Thanks Isaac and Chris, I hope to be back this afternoon.
The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval.
Regards, Weiyan
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
The Base: A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4 A3-E4: OK E4-A4: slow A3-D4: OK D4-A4: fast
Thirds: A3-C#4: OK A#3:D4: OK B3-D#4: slow C4-E4: Slow C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval. D4-F#4: OK D#4-G4: OK E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd! F4-A4: slow
Fourths A3-D4: OK A#3-D#4: OK B3-E4: slow C4-F4: slow C#4-F#4: slow D4-G4: fast D#4-G#4: slow E4-A4: slow
Fifths A3-E4: ok A#3-F4: too just B3-F#4: slow C4-G4: fast C#4-G#4: ok D4-A4: fast
Raise A4, F4, G#4, Drop C4
The octave is too narrow so there are many calm thirds and fourths.
Regards, Weiyan
Hi Weiyan,
Let's proceed with your self-correction above (my comments between brackets), this is how you can develop and gain authonomy; we will check your March 15th recordings later on.
The Base: A3-A4: Too narrow. Raise A4 (Yes!) A3-E4: OK (Yes, nice and very slow beat rate, always check.. narrow side) E4-A4: slow (Yes) A3-D4: OK (Slow, make it abour 1 bps) D4-A4: fast (Yes)
Thirds: A3-C#4: OK (Yes, a little slow) A#3:D4: OK (Yes, a bit fast, you want a smoother progression) B3-D#4: slow (Yes, slow, about 7 bps) C4-E4: Slow (?? let's check C4, I hear it too wide) C#4-F4: Slow, Faster than previous interval. (Yes, slow, about 6 bps; faster than previous?) D4-F#4: OK (Yes, Temporarely) D#4-G4: OK (sensibly more tense than previous) E4-G#4: slow, near perfect 3rd! (Yes, only slow/sweet) F4-A4: slow (?? let's check F4)
Fourths A3-D4: OK (Slow, see base) A#3-D#4: OK (Fast, about 2 bps, ask YS, is this why A#3-D4 was fast?) B3-E4: slow (I hear about 4 bps) C4-F4: slow (Quite OK) C#4-F#4: slow (Yes) D4-G4: fast (Yes, about 4 bps) D#4-G#4: slow(Faster than previous, about 6 bps) E4-A4: slow (Yes, see base)
Fifths A3-E4: ok (Yes, nice and correct) A#3-F4: too just(Nice, as above) B3-F#4: slow (Yes, shy, check narrow side and 5th breathing) C4-G4: fast (Yes, check narrow/wide side, check C4-E4 as mentione above) C#4-G#4: ok (Yes, always check narrow side) D4-A4: fast (Yes, see base)
Raise A4, F4, G#4, (Yes, also A#3) Drop C4 (Before that... correct D4, Double check G4 comparing also A3-F#4 and A#3-G4)
- . - . - . -
Very good, Weiyan, I see that most of your Self-critique is correct.
I will ask you to record the sequence in a different way.
Now, try to work on fourths: for instance you can compare three fourths on the same interval, by muting the three strings of the same note in turn.
For example, tune A3-D4, D4's mid-string, D4's left string muting the other two strings, and D4's right string;
On one string (remember which), tune A3-D4 pure, one close to pure/wide, and one close to pure/narrow;
Compare those three samples by listening to one sample at the time, this may help developping both "taste" (sweet/sour) and beat rate recognizing.
Now in Italy is spring... are those lovely birds coming back at yours anytime soon?
Regards, a.c.
Edit: From your latest post: ..."...Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat together has cleaner interval."
For the time being, do not think about attack/sustain, go simply for the louder/most evident beat.
The beat rate is changing after attack. Sometimes there are layers of beat rate: fundamental and higher partial have different beat rate. Focus at attack or sustain? Is it need to make fundamental and partial to same br? I personally believe partials beat has cleaner interval.
In general, considering beat rates, D4 and A4 may be both on the wrong side and, beat-wise, they would sound OK; remember always to make sure that the base-intervals are on the right side, wide octave and fourths, narrow fifths.
Much better than previous tunings; please notice that A#3-D4 is much slower than A3-C#4, and D#4-G4 and F4-A4 are sweeter than previous 3rds. These are all clear indications that some other intervals can be improved as well. Then we have to check our tuning again, and in this case we have to first check A#3, D4, D#4, G4, F4 and A4.
A#3 may be too high (in pitch) (*) D4 may be too low
D#4 may be too high G4 may be too low
F4 may be too high A4 may be too low
Let's check the sequence and map the beat rates, you would start refining the intervals that, more than others, sound wrong and/or improvable:
B3-E3 is a bit fast... check B3-D#4... and D#4-G#4, this is beatless; here you would also compare with D4-G4 and E4-A4.
You know that, if D#4 is too high, perhaps A#3 will be too high ((*) see above); if A#3-F4 is just (check fifths), F4 will be too high; check C4-G4, it beats too much... and so on.
During the sequence, remember to compare the proceeding intervals - step by step - with your base-beat-references and interlace M6ths and thirds as soon as you can. Soon you will learn to compare intervals more strictly, you will be able to tune A#3 and notice if A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 and B3-D#4 are fairly progressive, otherwise you would go back and check again all previous steps.
Next time, if you like, when you record the sequence you can play also the "already tuned" intervals, for instance:
E4-B3, play (and compare) also A3-D4 B3-F#4, play (and compare) also A3-E4; play and evaluate A3-F#4 F#4-C#4, play also E4-B3 and E4-A4, so you can place that fourth (and 4ths progression) more correctly; evaluate A3-C#4 etc.
In coming days will focus on 5th and 4th. Tune each of the three string to fifth, as suggested in previous post. I found that my B3-F#4 are usually reversed. May need refinement on the hammer control.
Working on:\
J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88 60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
Yes, Weiyan, "hammer control" and pin-charge Vs string-tension relationship.
Remember to be aware of your body posture, when you over-raise the pitch... be willing (in your mind) to make use of all your body.
Relax your ear, the beat will show up and tell you what to do; play together, in time with the beat, on the beat, and concentrate onto the pin: turn the pin clock-wise gently, evaluate pin torsion and bending, over-raise the pitch and charge the pin anti-clock-wise; better if you can stabilize the (temporary) pitch with a Forte blow.
