Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards harpsichord sound on the HP-505 question

I have the very reliable information that the harpsichord 'early' sound in the ROLAND HP-505 is based on the ROLAND C-30 digital harpsichord sound. Nevertheless, I don´t get it to sound well on my 505:

Upon releasing a key I frequently receive a relatively loud 'iiuup' sound terminating the otherwise pretty tone. This annoys so much, that I claim the sound to not be usable at all. So far I did not find this artifact to be controllable by the way I touch the keys.
Any ideas? Do you have the same behaviour/problem on your ROLAND SN instrument? Any recommendation how to best configure the KEY OFF, the different RESONANCE, and maybe other settings for playing the harpsichord sounding usable in the HP-505?

I believe that sound on releasing a key is made on purpose. On a real harpsichord, when releasing a key, the quill brushes the string, making a slight sound. Or something to that effect.

I had the original Roland C-80 digital harpsichord and it made the same sound. The harpsichord sound on my FP7F seems the same as the C-80 also.

I believe you. It is just that I could never here such noise in a recording (CD / HiFi), and I recently really intended to hear it.
Would you know if this sound element could be down regulated by a certain parameter of the function menu?

Key-off noise/effect?

I couldn't find a way to turn off or adjust this key-of sound on my FP7F but it does seem possible on other models. The C50 harpsichord can turn it off and the C30 can adjust the volume.

I couldn't find any reference to it in the manual for your HP-505 but there may be a way to do it with some obscure setting or key combinations. Maybe Roland tech support could help?

I am pretty certain I know exactly what you are talking about, I have remarked on this most unpleasant sound on certain Roland voices a number of times.

Nobody has an explanation.

If I am right, the sound is only audible on Harpsichord 1, not Harpsichord 2.

The same sound occurs on a few tone wheel organs, some other voices and also is clear in Acoustic Bass 3.

This sound renders all voices on which it is heard unusable. It is a clear "Tchk" on key release and has no place on ANY instrument I have ever heard.

Here is the only recorded example of it I have ever found....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexJrb1w55Y

Go to 5 mins 11 secs, where a demonstration of acoustic bass plays it.

I have commented on the RD 700 NX thread, to no result.

Here is a "cut and paste" of that comment...


(Edit: the acoustic bass sound is actually quite good, and I'm finding it useful for gigs with LH bass, mainly played from the FP-4, which shares the same sound.)

The best acoustic bass would be acoustic bass 3, it is pre-programmed in the layering, but suffers from that dreadful "click" that renders it unplayable.

Harpsichord 1 has the same click and so do a few of the tone wheel organs plus various other voices.

At 5:11 you can clearly here it on this video of an RD 300NX.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexJrb1w55Y

Doesn't sound too bad as a "one-off" but when you play with no pedal the noise accompanies every note change and is terrible.

Acoustic Bass 1 and 2 don't suffer from it.

Time Roland fixed it.

On release of a key, the quill does indeed brush the string, quickly followed by the (usually felt) damper hitting the string. It is very audible to the player and can usually be heard on recordings of harpsichords at the end of a phrase or piece and is certainly present in sampled harpsichords for DP use. Whether or not the Roland sound equates to the "real thing" I cannot say. Not as intrusive as the sound of a tracker organ - which also is present in software instruments - but an integral part of the original instrument(s) on which the built in DP harpsichord sound is very loosely based.

IMHO, if you want to play a harpsichord on your DP, get some sample software. (Complete with aforesaid noises!)

The "key off" sound of a harpsichord is very much part of the overall sound of this instrument, and if it is not present the instrument does not sound natural. Precisely controlling the release of the keys on a harpsichord is an important part of the technique of playing such an instrument, and contributes a lot to the rhythmic expression. Learn to use it to an effect!

PS. I don't know how good the release samples on the Rolands are, I suppose they must be rather good on the C-30/50. On the lowly Yamaha P155 I own it is quite decent, and I would not be without it the few times I switch from piano to harpsichord.

It is not a "key-off" sound. There are several harpsichord voices on Rolands and Harpsichord 1 is the only one to produce this, it is a definite micro switching noise.

Did you watch the video on the RD 300 NX?

Why is a "key-off" sound produced on Acoustic Bass 3?

All voices with this switching noise are unplayable because of it. In no way realistic to any Harpsichord I have ever heard.

For reference here is a real Harpsichord and it demonstrates non of the clearly audible unpleasant clicking the Roland has, indeed, any "key-off" noise is well controlled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ffPVFTmK48

I also own a 22 year old Roland RD 300s and the harpsichord voice on that is far superior to the Harpsichord 1 on the RD 700 NX.

slipperykeys: I listened to the session music demo you linked to above. There is indeed a nasty click at 5:11 when the sound releases. If the Roland harpsichord sound in question here has indeed the same problem then I'd tend to agree that this is not a key off sample as there should be. (I've never listened to a Roland HP 505 so I can't be sure.)

Surely the 'unpleasant' clicks that Roland provide as key-off samples for acoustic bass and harpsichord are the realistic results of close miking technique: entirely authentic. But, of course, they would be lost in the context of a concert hall or chamber - or jazz bar for that matter. But they are not 'faults', but rather over zealous representation of the genuine sound of the instrument. It should be controllable as a user parameter.

Please apologize the delay in publishing a tiny sound example of what I call an sound artifact ('iiuup'), I should have published one right away:
Harpsichord sound example of the HP-505

Now that sounds perfectly as it should. See my first post in this thread.

Yes- it's like on my hp-302. sounds quite realistic, I think.

Hmm. Ok. I learned something.
Should this element of the sound change in some way if releasing keys at different speeds? I could not succeed to influence it that way.
I conclude that for playing harpsichord correctly I either have this sound element clearly present, or have to shroud it by skillfully playing alredy a next key while the former is still in its release phase, playing a kind of super-legato.
Did I get this correctly?

Yes, our (Roland HP) DPs mimick the effect of:

1. a quick release making less of a 'iiup' sound than a slow release (a bit like pulling off a sticking plaster (band aid) quickly hurts less than ripping it off slowly).

2. A proportionately diminishing 'iiup' as the note decays - so you don't get a loud key~release sound after the notes have all but died away.

But really, it seems to me that a perfectly normal legato technique masks these key-release sounds anyway. Try plying normal scales, with a good solid legato, and see if you even notice the intrusive 'iiup' - I don't.

Having said that, I know nothing about harpsichord/ clavichord technique - I tried one once and was disappointed to discover how tricky they are to play - because of the resistance of the quills - like 'escapement' notch only much much more pronounced.

ps, you can control the amount of the key-release effect you get on the HP 302 and HP 505, but only for the sn piano, unfortunately (there are 10 levels and 'off' accessed by: function/e.piano/'r of'). For harpsichord, it appears that the effect is fixed on our dps, according to the specification sheet.

.....but it certainly doesn't spoil my cornflakes - I'd miss it if it were not there.

Thank you, at last somebody else has heard this noise.

Bear in mind in the video it is a "one-off".

On the instruments that render it the noise occurs with every key lift unless the key has been depressed so long that the sound has faded away.

For any real playing of pieces, like Bach for example, it is totally unusable as the OP said.

Luckily there are other voices similar, but it is a sad fact that Harpsichord 1 and Acoustic Bass 3 would be the best tones, without the click.

Unbelievable that Roland are unaware of it.

Unfortunately the speed of the key release, or the already past decay time of the tone do not alter the loud 'iiuup' at all. It is almost always there, exactly as presented in my recording. Therefore in practice the 'iiuup' accompanies each tone and dominates all harpsichord experience. Later at home, I will try once more if I can figure out what systematically makes it to not be present in some so far rare cases. Maybe the speed of pressing down the key, instead of the speed releasing it can make a difference? Maybe I understood you wrong and you speak about the 'release' as the moment when picking the string and not the 'release' as the moment when the finger lifts off from the pressed key? FURTHER EDIT, BESIDES THE STRIKE THROUGH ABOVE: It only does not appear if the tone already decayed completely.

No - by 'release', I do mean the moment you release the key. It does vary in its grading and intensity according to the length of time the note has been dying away, and the speed with which you let the key go (release). This seems in keeping with the way the instrument really sounds, so I wouldn't agree that it was an error or fault on the programmer's part at all. Listen to this video where a real harpsichord is featured - you get exactly the same 'iiup' which does not impede the music one bit once he actually plays a sustained run of notes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71x4MSlpGUk ....it's the same with the Roland HP series harpsichords.In fact,if anything, the Roland is rather sanitized compared with the raw reality.