Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#2048732 - 03/15/13 02:46 PM Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic?
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
I'm pretty far removed from the digital piano world, although several friends have them (in addition to their "regular" pianos) and I happened to be in school near where Moog was doing his synthesizers in the '60's and went to some early demonstrations. Most of what I see and hear about it now is on this site, when I glance sometimes at that other section. I understand very little of what they're talking about, and in my gut I don't really consider it the same instrument that 'we' play. But I do appreciate more and more what it offers, how the technology has been advancing, and, I have to admit, the advantages over 'our' piano, although believe me I feel that what gets lost is much greater. Still, while I hope the acoustic piano will survive forever, I'd guess it won't be that long before it becomes essentially a relic. How long? I'd guess as short as 100 years -- about 3 generations of human beings, assuming the world lasts that long. shocked
I think there's a high chance that as soon as 50 years from now, relatively few people will feel there's a reason to invest the greater money and space on acoustic pianos, and within another couple of generations after that, they will rarely be seen.

What do you think?

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2048743 - 03/15/13 03:02 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 6418
Loc: New York City
That would be very sad, I hope I won't live to that day if it ever happens. Digitals are vastly inferior to acoustics in almost every way possible, except convenience and portability.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2048744 - 03/15/13 03:02 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
It will never be a relic. Ever.

And I have 2 digital grands, 1 synth keyboard, 13 hardware synths, 2 samplers + at least 120 software synths and a 5 Tb sampler library.

In this part of the woods, the piano business is solid and growing.
_________________________
I never play anything the same way once.

Top
#2048749 - 03/15/13 03:06 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: chrisbell]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
It will never be a relic. Ever.

And I have 2 digital grands, 1 synth keyboard, 13 hardware synths, 2 samplers + at least 120 software synths and a 5 Tb sampler library....

Sounds like a very strong vote, coming from someone like you. I hope you're right. smile

BTW, why multiple digitals?
(Sorry about the stupid question, but as I said, I don't really know anything.) ha

Top
#2048756 - 03/15/13 03:12 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
mermilylumpkin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/13
Posts: 121
I don't know that the same laws of technological change apply to musical instruments as the rest of the world. On a hypothetical level, you'd imagine that violin makers would have been able to benefit from the years and years they've had to refine their craft and further analyze various acoustical properties, yet it's the original Strads and Guarneris that fetch top dollar. There's obviously various reasons for this, but one of them may well be that instrumentalists place less value on the notion of the latest state of the art technology.

Is there really a digital piano that compares with the acoustical properties of a Steinway or Fazioli? At best, the tone would be a copy from an acoustic piano. I'd imagine pianists prefer acoustic to digital for much the same reason hardcore audiophiles would rather listen to vinyl than an mp3 which is really a copy of a copy of a copy. The mechanics of a piano is just so different than the mechanics of a digital keyboard, on a micro level anyway, I always feel like I'm playing a different instrument when I switch from one to the other.


Edited by mermilylumpkin (03/15/13 03:13 PM)

Top
#2048762 - 03/15/13 03:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Strads and Guarneris have been modified to bring them up to today's standards, with new necks, fingerboards and strings, among other things. The bows of the time are considered obsolete, as well. Unmodified they are less desirable.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2048768 - 03/15/13 03:36 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 741
Loc: UK, Brighton
The technology *will* get good enough to replicate harmonic resonance, woodiness etc. Um...another couple of decades and I believe we will see and hear digital pianos outstrip acoustic pianos in terms of space, cost and dare I suggest sound? However, there will always be acoustics around; just as acoustic guitars have taken a back seat but are still around. I mean...I only own a digital, but as soon as I live somewhere with a mortgage (as opposed to renting) it'll be all acoustic-y....and why? Because "real" pianos have more soul. Because wood is infinitely superior to plastic...just because! laugh Um...I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels such...just one thing keeps me sure the piano won't be graved by the digital disease: resources. More and more wood grows every year (well, less, but you get the point laugh ); some precious metals (which will be required for the *best* circuitry to provide the *best* sound) are pretty finite...um...mermilylumpkin; the audiophile comment is, perhaps, a tad unjustified; our ears adapt to small differences and find homes of listening...so, um, when someone used to listening to vinyl hears the minute difference in mp3 they don't *feel* the music quite as deeply, even if they're *technically* hearing a better version...of course, um, this doesn't deal with the youngsters, but that's cult followings for you laugh I agree regarding sensitivity in touch by the way; I've many times considered stop playing my portable grand as (and thus all instruments as it is the only one I have access to), I feel, it is teaching me improper sensitivity and pedaling habits...um...I fear each note extra will unprepare me one note further from the piano laugh
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

Top
#2048771 - 03/15/13 03:50 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17671
Loc: Victoria, BC
" ... will become..."? I have played some acoustic pianos that have already become 'relics.' smile

Cheers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

Top
#2048777 - 03/15/13 03:58 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2230
Loc: San Jose, CA
Digitals are getting pretty good. But, they don't come anywhere near filling a large space the way a concert grand does. There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.

Top
#2048778 - 03/15/13 04:00 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
This topic comes on and off occasionally.
My first reaction is that, guessing about the future of acoustic piano and even disagreeing on our guesses is somewhat meaningless. Because non of us will live that long, and therefore any guess is as worthless as the other.

Secondly, the digital pianos, besides the piano sound, can also produce other instrument sounds, such as string, wind, percussion etc. instruments.
Now, I don't see any, and really ANY, difference between the sound being produced whether it is a wind instrument sound or a piano sound.
Would you be able to persuade a clarinetist that the clarinet sound produced by a digital piano is any close to what he is hearing when he plays his instrument?
The same, is as valid for me. In the end it is a digitally produced artificial sound.

Despite all the above, and though I find it meaningless, yet it has been requested by Mark, here is my guess:

I agree with Mark.


Edited by Hakki (03/15/13 04:01 PM)
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2048784 - 03/15/13 04:14 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Hakki]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Despite all the above....here is my guess:

I agree with Mark.

Even though it sucks?? ha
("It" meaning two things: the DP, and what we're saying.)

Indeed that was a surprise ending to your post!

Top
#2048791 - 03/15/13 04:35 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Hakki]
Polyphonist Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 6418
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Because non of us will live that long,


The kids on this forum might. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2048799 - 03/15/13 05:02 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
I think it could acoustics could become obsolete as far as amateur players are concerned but I'm pretty sure there will always the demand for "the real thing" from at least an elite group of professionals. That will keep at least some acoustic makers in business. After all, "they" still make harpsichords and lutes.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#2048803 - 03/15/13 05:05 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 258
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P

Mostly, the problem with digitals is that the very best ones are basically just pianos without strings. What's the point of that? You might as well put the strings and soundboard in. Hybrid pianos seem to be the way to go, if you must have a digital piano and an acoustic.


Edited by SBP (03/15/13 05:07 PM)
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

Top
#2048804 - 03/15/13 05:10 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Despite all the above....here is my guess:

I agree with Mark.

Even though it sucks?? ha
("It" meaning two things: the DP, and what we're saying.)

Indeed that was a surprise ending to your post!


But DP's suck today. It doesn't mean they will still suck a hundred years later.
My worthless guess is that, they probably won't.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2048810 - 03/15/13 05:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
They don't suck today. I have been hunting for a digital piano the past couple of weeks, originally out of necessity. But I'm now very excited to get one, so blown away was I by how far along the technology has come even in the last year or so.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048811 - 03/15/13 05:24 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Having put my foot into the digital camp when I joined this forum in 2010, which was when I bought my first piano - a digital, I have to admit that the only reason I bought it was because it was either that or nothing: neighbors surrounding me would never tolerate me playing an acoustic. But I was quite pleasantly surprised at how good digitals (or at least the one I bought) have become, in emulating so many characteristics of the real thing. Such that ever since, I won't play on any acoustic that's out of tune or obviously decrepit, whereas before, I'd play on anything that resembled a piano, as long as it was mechanical.....

But of course, I still hanker after a Bösendorfer Imperial 290 or Fazioli F308. Or even a Yamaha CFX, or a Blüthner Model 1, or C.Bechstein D282. Even a Steinway D272 will be fine grin. (In my dreams......).

But with the increasing deforestation around the world as populations keep expanding exponentially, I can't see acoustics staying around forever - especially as digitals (especially of the modeled variety, like my V-Piano) keep improving. I remember when CD first appeared: how could numbers (with error correction built in) possibly give good quality sound for discerning classical listeners, compared to vinyl LP, where all the information from the master tape is in the grooves?
Well, how many of us listen to, or even own any LPs now (assuming we're old enough to know what they look like....)? I haven't played any of mine for decades, and all my favorite recordings on LP have now been duplicated on subsequent CD releases, which I've acquired.

The really odd thing is that most people now listen to music on far inferior MP3 format and YouTube recordings. The audiophiles of yesteryear would be aghast that we happily tolerate dynamic compression (such that pp becomes mf plus hiss), distortion, frequency loss etc, etc. Who's to say that even if digitals never attain the 'live' experience of playing on a fully mechanical instrument, we wouldn't switch over to them in droves simply for their convenience, their ability to stay in tune indefinitely, the fact that they need no maintenance whatsoever and can tolerate any temperature and (lack of) humidity?

If you haven't heard a modeled DP played by a classical pianist in a concert hall before, have a listen to this: http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo
I played Schumann/Liszt's Widmung and other pieces on that digital in the Royal College of Music concert hall in London two years ago, and truly felt like I was playing on a well-regulated (and perfectly tuned) grand, such was its range of tone color, dynamics and responsiveness.

Top
#2048814 - 03/15/13 05:29 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 653
Loc: Darlington, UK
I very much doubt acoustics will ever become mere relics. Its not just a case of technology being on a par with acoustic engineering, its something 'other', something tactile! New materials replacing wood maybe (there are some high end acoustic guitars made of carbon that are used by professional players now).
So no, I dont think acoustics will ever disappear, especially in professional circles.
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

Top
#2048816 - 03/15/13 05:44 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Originally Posted By: bennevis

If you haven't heard a modeled DP played by a classical pianist in a concert hall before, have a listen to this: http://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo
I played Schumann/Liszt's Widmung and other pieces on that digital in the Royal College of Music concert hall in London two years ago, and truly felt like I was playing on a well-regulated (and perfectly tuned) grand, such was its range of tone color, dynamics and responsiveness.


This is very typical of how different all of us can be.
To me, this is just what I mean, when I say it sucks. Right from the very first note.


Edited by Hakki (03/15/13 06:00 PM)
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2048819 - 03/15/13 06:02 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
To my ears VI Labs True Keys is the best sounding virtual piano on the market
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zBYtrClM5k

No one can say it doesn't sound better than this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8frV3I8OM4
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048821 - 03/15/13 06:12 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
I have had a grand for 48 years, and a DP for 27 years, as well as a clavichord. They each serve a niche in my playing and performing. With a good grand, you feel the string vibrations through the keys, since the whole physical structure of the acoustic piano participates and contributes to the sound. Being able to respond, not only to the sound of the notes and to the action, but also to the vibrations makes one feel part of the instrument, something that, as far as I know, has not been simulated on a DP (yet). Until it does, my guess is that performers, at least, will demand acoustic pianos.

Top
#2048824 - 03/15/13 06:27 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Say, when pianists play the same Steinway D, for example, Cliburn, Rubinstein, Horowitz, etc., they produce completely different sounds from the very same piano. You might even recognize who is who.

For now, I don't think such a thing is possible with DPs.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2048826 - 03/15/13 06:32 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mwm]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mwm
I have had a grand for 48 years, and a DP for 27 years, as well as a clavichord. They each serve a niche in my playing and performing. With a good grand, you feel the string vibrations through the keys, since the whole physical structure of the acoustic piano participates and contributes to the sound. Being able to respond, not only to the sound of the notes and to the action, but also to the vibrations makes one feel part of the instrument, something that, as far as I know, has not been simulated on a DP (yet). Until it does, my guess is that performers, at least, will demand acoustic pianos.
It has been done on the Yamaha Avant Grand as of a few years ago.

Top
#2048827 - 03/15/13 06:34 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.

Some time ago a good pianist posted a recording in the Members Recordings forum. Many praised the recording and some began asking about the piano and guessing what piano it was. The recording was done on a digital or hybrid, but no one guessed this.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/15/13 06:44 PM)

Top
#2048828 - 03/15/13 06:35 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 511
Loc: Germany
I don't think it will die out. Not before the end of humanity as we know it, anyway.
Just like the synthesizer did not replace every other instrument, the digital piano will not replace the acoustic piano.

However, I believe that spinets and console pianos might die out eventually. They have poorer action than proper uprights, and therefore no real advantage over digital pianos. Unless you intend to play the piano during the next power outage.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

Top
#2048830 - 03/15/13 06:37 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2230
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.


Not if I was sitting in the back of a concert hall.

Top
#2048832 - 03/15/13 06:48 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: jeffreyjones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.


Not if I was sitting in the back of a concert hall.
Yes, I agree that in a space like that digitals are lacking.

Top
#2048843 - 03/15/13 07:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.

I sure do, at least in online postings. After seeing this first part of your post, I was going to mention about how I was fooled by a posted recording, similarly to what you talked about in the next part. I don't think it was the one you referred to, but....it was of Chopin's 1st Etude. I did a detailed reply and then was pretty mad when it turned out that this wasn't "real" playing; not only was it on a digital, but the tempo and dynamics were played with after the fact. There was another thread more recently where apparently the posted recording was a doctored digital. Even after some people said this was obviously what it was, I couldn't tell and had no idea what enabled them to know.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Having put my foot into the digital camp when I joined this forum in 2010, which was when I bought my first piano - a digital....

Maybe showing my bigotry about DP's grin I was very surprised to see this! Through your posts, we know that you're a very serious and very knowledgeable classical piano person, and I wouldn't have expected that you'd be coming from a DP. I guess it also shows how far DP's have come -- farther than I knew, even though I do realize what Debrucey said, that they've been advancing ever more rapidly, even just in the past year.

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Say, when pianists play the same Steinway D, for example, Cliburn, Rubinstein, Horowitz, etc., they produce completely different sounds from the very same piano. You might even recognize who is who.
For now, I don't think such a thing is possible with DPs.

Besides how what you have in mind might be more possible as DP's continue advancing, I think there could also be recognizable differences from the different creative ways that people use the "settings." (Sorry, I'm sure I'm not using the right term, but I mean the programming and adjusting of the kinds of sounds.)

Top
#2048845 - 03/15/13 07:48 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: Mark_C


Originally Posted By: bennevis
Having put my foot into the digital camp when I joined this forum in 2010, which was when I bought my first piano - a digital....

Maybe showing my bigotry about DP's grin I was very surprised to see this! Through your posts, we know that you're a very serious and very knowledgeable classical piano person, and I wouldn't have expected that you'd be coming from a DP. I guess it also shows how far DP's have come -- farther than I knew, even though I do realize what Debrucey said, that they've been advancing ever more rapidly, even just in the past year.



You wouldn't be surprised to learn that I was quite a bigot about the uselessness of DPs for the discerning classical pianist, until I actually decided to buy one for myself in 2010 grin - when reality set in, and I realized I was really fed up of not having a piano to practise on at home, and having to rely on doing the circuits of piano showrooms, occasionally hiring a practice room, or playing on decrepit instruments wherever I could find them....

Until then I'd never touched a DP - not even with a barge pole, with garlic around my neck and holy water ready for sprinkling....... wink

Top
#2048849 - 03/15/13 07:57 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 349
Digitals do not come anywhere close to replicating the sound of an acoustic piano, and if their progress during the last 25 years can be extrapolated forward, they never will. They are interesting and useful instruments in their own right, but completely different. And so I don't believe that the acoustic piano will ever be reduced to a true relic, because the music that was written for it (or its cousins) over 250-300 years is just too damn good; someone will always want to play the piano repertoire, and digitals will never suffice for it.

However, I suppose I can imagine a future in which good composers stop writing for it. Not a likely future, imo, but a possible one.

Top
#2048851 - 03/15/13 08:01 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Disagree. They definitely will reach a point where the differences in sound become very hard to tell, at least in small room settings and when compared to acoustic instruments of the same price point. Moreover, I think we will reach that point within 10 years.

I hasten to add that I don't think that digital pianos will REPLACE acoustic ones, not do I think they should.

I know many piano teachers who will refuse to teach children unless they have an acoustic piano. I find this sad. A good acoustic piano is beyond the budget of many UK households, especially in the current climate. The merits of digital pianos should not be so quickly dismissed.


Edited by debrucey (03/15/13 08:06 PM)
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048853 - 03/15/13 08:02 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6078
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Hopefully not in our lifetime!
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#2048855 - 03/15/13 08:05 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 349
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Disagree. They definitely will reach a point where the differences in sound become very hard to tell, at least in small room settings and when compared to acoustic instruments of the same price point. Moreover, I think we will reach that point within 10 years.


Absolutely no chance, imo. On my scale, if digitals 25 years ago were at 1, and if the situation you describe above is represented by 100, digitals are now at 3. Not happening in 10 years, unless they take a completely new and different technical approach, one that's beyond my current imagination.

Edit: I didn't notice your "same price point" condition. That makes for an uninteresting comparison. Good acoustics cost real $, and always will, while the cost of digitals could theoretically get Foxconned down to almost nothing.

Top
#2048857 - 03/15/13 08:10 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Which digitals have you played on?

I am used to regularly playing steinway B's and D's, and I was still very impressed by the high end digital models I sampled recently. They felt better to play than most upright pianos I have played.

Not that this is really a fair comparison. I think it's quite important to consider than digital pianos are much cheaper than acoustic pianos, therefore it's unreasonable to expect them to be able to sound the same as a piano that costs £100,000.

Edit: Just saw your edit


Edited by debrucey (03/15/13 08:14 PM)
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048860 - 03/15/13 08:16 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 349
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Which digitals have you played on?

I am used to regularly playing steinway B's and D's, and I was still very impressed by the high end digital models I sampled recently. They felt better to play than most upright pianos I have played.


I try out the new models every couple years, just to see what's going on. Maybe you've played a model that I haven't played. But I don't need to play them to know what they sound like; listening to them is enough. If you can recommend a particular model, I'll play it within the next few weeks and report back.

Top
#2048865 - 03/15/13 08:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Newer models have to played in person to compare. They don't sound as good through headphones, or a computer, the sound is too 'clean'. The Kawai CA-95 for example, has a wooden soundboard, which gives the sound a much warmer, resonant sound, and when playing it you feel the whole instrument (and the room) vibrate in the same way you do with a real piano. The action it uses has full length (inside the case I mean) wooden keys which pivot like a grand piano action and uses the same lever mechanism, although on smaller scale. The shiny plasticy keys of yesteryear are replaced with ones which look and feel like ivory. It really does feel very convincing. The yamaha Avant Grand series have real grand piano actions in them, and as such feel indistinguishable from playing a grand piano (but in the size of an upright).
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048868 - 03/15/13 08:25 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 349
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Newer models have to played in person to compare. They don't sound as good through headphones, or a computer, the sound is too 'clean'. The Kawai CA-95 for example, has a wooden soundboard, which gives the sound a much warmer, resonant sound, and when playing it you feel the whole instrument (and the room) vibrate in the same way you do with a real piano. The action it uses has full length (inside the case I mean) wooden keys which pivot like a grand piano action and uses the same lever mechanism, although on smaller scale. The shiny plasticy keys of yesteryear are replaced with ones which look and feel like ivory. It really does feel very convincing. The yamaha Avant Grand series have real grand piano actions in them, and as such feel indistinguishable from playing a grand piano (but in the size of an upright).


I've tried Avant Grands already. Will check out the Kawai. My comments above are about the sound, not the feel.

Top
#2048870 - 03/15/13 08:28 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
I'm looking forward to the release of the Kawai CS10, which is essentially the CA-95, but inside the same case as their K-2 acoustic pianos.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048872 - 03/15/13 08:31 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
One also has to consider what the instrument is going to be used for. If, like me, you are a (soon to be ex) conservatoire student who needs a practice instrument for complex and difficult music but you can't afford an acoustic piano that is good enough, you can't do much better than the avant grand. Sure, the sound is not quite there yet, but essentially you are paying £5000 for a high quality grand piano action that would otherwise cost you many times that and take up many times the space. For my purposes, the action is more important than the sound, and that is something that modern digital pianos do very well.


Edited by debrucey (03/15/13 08:32 PM)
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048874 - 03/15/13 08:34 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 349
Originally Posted By: debrucey
One also has to consider what the instrument is going to be used for. If, like me, you are a (soon to be ex) conservatoire student who needs a practice instrument for complex and difficult music but you can't afford an acoustic piano that is good enough, you can't do much better than the avant grand. Sure, the sound is not quite there yet, but essentially you are paying £5000 for a high quality grand piano action that would otherwise cost you many times that and take up many times the space. For my purposes, the action is more important than the sound, and that is something that modern digital pianos do very well.


That's all very reasonable, but I was never addressing anything here other than the sound of digitals, which is completely unlike the sound of acoustics. That doesn't mean that I think digitals are useless.

Top
#2048876 - 03/15/13 08:39 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
I think the progress of digitals/hybrids has been astronomically fast. I played a Clavinova in the 90's in countless high school musicals and the the Avant Grand and others are light years beyond that in the space of 20 years or less.

Around thirty years ago the best computer chess programs were very weak. Now some $25 program can beat 99% of chess players and the best computer programs regularly defeat grandmasters. It has gotten to the point where only grandmasters have a chance against the best chess computer programs. In blitz chess, I don't think even the best grandmasters can beat the best computers.

I actually find it hard to believe, based on the exponential improvement in computers and technology, that anyone thinks that non acoustics will not eventually become indistinguishable from acoustics. The only thing that might prevent this is a lack of market for this type of non acoustic piano.

Top
#2048877 - 03/15/13 08:41 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
It's getting closer though. Digital pianos tend not to sound as good themselves as standalone software packages which are available separately. But if you put the two together, they can sound pretty good.

If I spent £2800 on an yamaha upright, and then spend £2500 on a Kawai CA-95 and £300 on TrueKeys for my laptop and paired them up, I feel confident that I could get more colour, contrast and subtlety out of the digital setup, especially with the features I mentioned like the inclusion of a wooden soundboard.


Edited by debrucey (03/15/13 08:42 PM)
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048890 - 03/15/13 09:18 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Lemon Pledge]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
The world, as usual is always changing. When I was a kid I grew up in a trailer so a piano was not possible.

Today an 88 keyed weighted keyed piano can be had for 600 dollars Canadian. When I bought my shack it cost 40, 000 and vehicles cost 3 thousand dollars. Today houses on a small lot cost a million dollars and a condo, 400 sq ft. cost a half a million. Today vehicles cost 50,000. Food is interesting. I remember visiting Japan and seeing produce in small boxes. Today lots of fruit and vegtables come in boxes. Everywhere I look, I see lots of baby carriages with 1 or 2 babies. Today, I understand, that 2,000 people a month move to this city.

The cost of housing and what it means if you own a piano - digital you can play 24/7/365 and an acoustic restricted by neighbours. I love my acoustic piano but the future, who knows. When I was 13 I taught myself to type on a manual typewriter. Today, it is difficult to get ribbons for typewriters and manual and electric typewriters aren't seen. Everyhwere you go people of all ages are holding cell phones, etc.

When the personal computer first came out it was around 4,000 dollars and today laptops can be had for 300 dollars.

The good news is that digitals pianos can put a piano everywhere in the reach of almost anyone who want to learn to play a piano like never before.

When I go to music store the digital keyboards department always has lots of people of all ages. When I go to the acoustic piano department there is only one time that I saw a customer there when I went there. Remember what a descent piano costs, new or old, and what a digital piano costs - less than a monthly paycheque.


Edited by Michael_99 (03/15/13 09:21 PM)

Top
#2048891 - 03/15/13 09:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Michael_99]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: Michael_99

The good news is that digitals pianos can put a piano everywhere in the reach of almost anyone who want to learn to play a piano like never before.


Yes, absolutely. Surely this is something to be celebrated. If I didn't have a digital when I was a teenager, I wuldnt have had a piano at all. I wouldn't be where I am now.


Edited by debrucey (03/15/13 09:23 PM)
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048892 - 03/15/13 09:30 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
yhc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 148
Loc: NYC, NY
The future of piano I think probably is just like that of the harpsichord today. When later generations ascustom to the tone color of the electronic piano, the piano now will fade but not diminish.

Top
#2048901 - 03/15/13 10:06 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3236
Loc: not in Japan anymore
One thing not mentioned (enough) so far is the organic sound of an acoustic, which I miss terribly now that I only have a digital. I'll probably get pelted with rocks and garbage for saying this, but I used to love how I could hear the weather change in my (acoustic) piano. The instrument was alive to me. I have always loved the differences in the sounds of (acoustic) pianos, what some people complain about to me sounds like the piano's own character. You never get that on a digital.

I had the pleasure of playing a Yamaha Avant Grand for several lessons, and it was very impressive. I would much rather have it than my current wimpy little Yamaha Arius. And given my current living situation (apartment, grad student) I am grateful to have the Arius rather than no piano at all. But these pianos are painfully sterile and their stability is dull. I long for my beloved acoustic and it's personality and warmth. An acoustic piano is organic in a way that a digital one can never be.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




Top
#2048903 - 03/15/13 10:15 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Unless you could figure out a way of programming in said organicness. It could be done.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048905 - 03/15/13 10:29 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Quick question. On a really good DP, when you hold notes using the sostenuto pedal but don't actually play those notes and then play and release harmonically related chords several octaves higher, do the held notes sing by sympathetic resonance, as in an acoustic piano?

Top
#2048910 - 03/15/13 10:44 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Yes, high end digital pianos now sample sympathetic resonance. The same is true when you lift the sustain pedal. All of the notes resonate, not just the ones you play. I have even tested holding a low C and playing up the harmonic series.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048912 - 03/15/13 10:49 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
The comparison with harpsichords is interesting, but ultimately I think inaccurate. Pianos superseded harpsichords because they were wholly different instruments. Digital pianos tend to be judged largely on how faithfully they recreate the experience of playing an acoustic, i.e the more indistinguishable they are from real pianos the better they are.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2048921 - 03/15/13 11:26 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2055
Loc: Canada
The Avantgrand I own is probably the only reason why I'm able to continue with music right now... it's something that I'm eternally grateful to my family for providing it for me. It's more expensive than a lesser digital, but I don't think I would have able to expand my repertoire to its current state without it.

@Debrucey - LOL, we're playing like the same stuff this year. I also did the 4th ballade and will be performing the Ravel again soon...+ I've fooled around with some Kapustin preludes. Not played at your level however :P.


Edited by Kuanpiano (03/15/13 11:27 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 118
Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto no.3

Top
#2048923 - 03/15/13 11:27 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8696
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
...


Edited by argerichfan (03/16/13 02:23 PM)
Edit Reason: not really relevant
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2048951 - 03/16/13 01:01 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: ShiroKuro]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ShiroKuro
One thing not mentioned (enough) so far is the organic sound of an acoustic, which I miss terribly now that I only have a digital....I used to love how I could hear the weather change in my (acoustic) piano. The instrument was alive to me. I have always loved the differences in the sounds of (acoustic) pianos, what some people complain about to me sounds like the piano's own character. You never get that on a digital

....given my current living situation...I am grateful to have the Arius rather than no piano at all. But these pianos are painfully sterile and their stability is dull. I long for my beloved acoustic and its personality and warmth. An acoustic piano is organic in a way that a digital one can never be.

I agree. I had never thought of it before as a plus, but yeah. I fight this characteristic of pianos, by working hard to stabilize humidity, temp etc., but I guess I love it too, just as you said.

One of the challenges of performing is feeling out how the piano is at that particular moment and adapting to it. Even if we tried the piano the previous day, or that morning, it'll be a little different when the performance comes around. Just like what I said in the above paragraph, I've viewed this mostly as a 'problem,' but y'know, I also love it. It has become a familiar and wonderful part of the performing routine and helps make each performance a unique moment.

Top
#2048965 - 03/16/13 01:56 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: SBP]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?

Top
#2048977 - 03/16/13 03:00 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
outo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Finland
I hope not but...

For professionals it probably won't happen soon, they mostly study on an acoustic and that's what is expected in concerts.

But in homes of the amateurs? I would expect that it might happen for a few reasons: Price, convenience, space.
I was talking to a piano dealer the other day and he said he sells quite a few grands to older people to be more furniture than an instrument shocked
Where will all the grands go after these peole are gone?
And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

For me the digitals don't get more appealing even though they get better and better. The things about the acoustic that draw me into it are the feel of the playing, the effort it takes to be able to get the sound I want and the little differences or imperfections that make the piano an individual and it's sound more living than a perfect digital sound.
I don't know if the young people today would care for this, more like the easier the better so I do think acoustics will become less and less common in households. Especially when the old uprights get dumped and the new good quality uprights are pretty expensive. Why buy a cheap acoustic that is low quality when you can get a really good digital for less...

Top
#2048978 - 03/16/13 03:07 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
outo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?


I agree 100%!

My dream is to own a fortepiano one day, because they have so much more appealing sound than the modern monsters...

Top
#2048979 - 03/16/13 03:21 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6040
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Yes - you can purchase a digital for less than an acoustic - but a digital only lasts about 25% as long as an acoustic (at best).

If your power goes out - a digital will be completely useless.

At least you can play an acoustic by candlelight.

I imagine that acoustics will be very popular with future doomsday preppers. grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2048981 - 03/16/13 03:31 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.



Cher, it's not the sound of a digital I hate (though I'm not wild about it)-it's the feel. I keep one at my elderly parents' home to practice on when I'm down there. Yes, it has weighted keys but it still feels like some sort of toy compared to my not particularly grand acoustic.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#2048987 - 03/16/13 04:12 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Do you remember the film A.I. Artificial Intelligence?

This is from IMDb:

"A highly advanced robotic boy longs to become "real" so that he can regain the love of his human mother."
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2048994 - 03/16/13 04:50 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Hakki]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1598
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Do you remember the film A.I. Artificial Intelligence?

This is from IMDb:

"A highly advanced robotic boy longs to become "real" so that he can regain the love of his human mother."


Didn't Disney do an animated film on the same point some decades earlier? wink
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

Top
#2049009 - 03/16/13 06:19 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



Status and identity, I think.

I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.

Top
#2049014 - 03/16/13 06:35 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: jeffreyjones]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.


I think this is crucial - speakers simply are not the same kind of sound-producing vehicle as a piano. No matter how good they get, at least using the concepts currently in use, they just don't move the air in the same way as an acoustic piano does. It's physically impossible.

Top
#2049030 - 03/16/13 07:35 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: -Frycek]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the huge percentage of pianists, including those on this thread who hate the sound of digitals/hybrids, would have difficulty telling the difference in a blind test.



Cher, it's not the sound of a digital I hate (though I'm not wild about it)-it's the feel. I keep one at my elderly parents' home to practice on when I'm down there. Yes, it has weighted keys but it still feels like some sort of toy compared to my not particularly grand acoustic.


This is no longer an issue with modern digital pianos.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049031 - 03/16/13 07:37 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: wr]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.


I think this is crucial - speakers simply are not the same kind of sound-producing vehicle as a piano. No matter how good they get, at least using the concepts currently in use, they just don't move the air in the same way as an acoustic piano does. It's physically impossible.


Human hearing is only so good. It's theoretically possible to have a speaker system good enough that the ears will be deceived.



Edited by debrucey (03/16/13 09:46 AM)
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049032 - 03/16/13 07:40 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



What!?
I think they'e beautiful.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049062 - 03/16/13 09:38 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



What!?
I think they'e beautiful.
Of course. They're incredibly beautiful which is one reason, and a perfectly valid one IMO, that some only get them as furniture.

Top
#2049064 - 03/16/13 09:44 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
There's only so much you can do with a pair of speakers. I don't see any way to cure this shortcoming; you need all of the heavy, earthen and organic material of a piano to replicate the full experience for your audience.


I think this is crucial - speakers simply are not the same kind of sound-producing vehicle as a piano. No matter how good they get, at least using the concepts currently in use, they just don't move the air in the same way as an acoustic piano does. It's physically impossible.


Human hearing is only so good. It's theoretically impossible to have a speaker system good enough that the ears will be deceived.
I think you meant "possible".

I don't know if it's possible, but I'd assume based on how fast technology is advancing that any problems/shortcomings in this area using current methods will eventually be worked out.

Top
#2049065 - 03/16/13 09:47 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Haha yes sorry I meant possible. I didn't mean necessarily possible with todays technology, but it is within the realms of possibility.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049067 - 03/16/13 09:49 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?
If everyone agreed with you, no one would be buying those pianos for their home. I have a Mason Hamlin BB in a tiny living room and it is not too loud. I do realize that sometimes pianos can be too loud for their spaces, but it is certainly not always the case.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/16/13 09:51 AM)

Top
#2049086 - 03/16/13 11:01 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4161
1) No digital piano can ever recreate the same presence of acoustic grands.

2) Machine-made electric grands will all be 100% identical to each other. You can't even say this about machine made grand pianos, which leads me to my third point.

3) People love the uniqueness of organic instruments. Every Steinway is different in tone, touch, character, everything. This is hugely important.



Instruments have been made organically for thousands of years; I don't think this will ever change. I just think raw materials will always beat synthetic ones when it comes to music. Sure pop and some e-music (electronic music) genres do everything with computers and sampling, but I don't believe that this will ever dominate organic instruments.
_________________________
To each his own.

Top
#2049091 - 03/16/13 11:18 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6040
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

And a small box-like plastic/particle board digital with a fake finish looks better than a beautiful acoustic grand in a formal living room??? grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2049093 - 03/16/13 11:22 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: carey]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4161
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

And a small box-like plastic/particle board digital with a fake finish looks better than a beautiful acoustic grand in a formal living room??? grin


I think those AvantGrands are quite ugly. It looks like a 3 foot grand piano. I believe if you look up 'ugly' in Websters you will find a picture of one.


And I agree with Mark and Debrucey. Real grand pianos are gorgeous. When I walk into a piano store my eyes light up like a kid in a candy shop.


Edited by JoelW (03/16/13 11:27 AM)
_________________________
To each his own.

Top
#2049094 - 03/16/13 11:22 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: JoelW]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: JoelW
1) No digital piano can ever recreate the same presence of acoustic grands.


Never is a long time. I remember when similar comments about sound and feel have been made that have been surpassed.

Originally Posted By: JoelW

2) Machine-made electric grands will all be 100% identical to each other. You can't even say this about machine made grand pianos, which leads me to my third point.


There are wide variety of parameters on some digital keyboards that go a long way toward personalizing the piano. They are also not the same in ways that are not as charming as an acoustic but at least prove they are not identical to each other.

Originally Posted By: JoelW

3) People love the uniqueness of organic instruments. Every Steinway is different in tone, touch, character, everything. This is hugely important.


People also love saving money. Digital pianos are often a fraction of the cost and never need tuning. (that $100 a pop around here).

Another thing people love is space. A digital piano takes much less of it than a grand piano.

Also, some of us who use the instrument to make money, find the ability to move it, invaluable.

I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe. smile
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2049095 - 03/16/13 11:23 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.

Top
#2049096 - 03/16/13 11:26 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.


I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. wink
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2049103 - 03/16/13 11:41 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
1) No digital piano can ever recreate the same presence of acoustic grands.

2) Machine-made electric grands will all be 100% identical to each other. You can't even say this about machine made grand pianos, which leads me to my third point.

3) People love the uniqueness of organic instruments. Every Steinway is different in tone, touch, character, everything. This is hugely important.
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.

Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

Top
#2049108 - 03/16/13 11:51 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6040
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2049110 - 03/16/13 11:52 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 653
Loc: Darlington, UK
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.


I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. wink

I am in shock! The thought of describing a grand piano as ugly..no I just cant picture it! :()
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

Top
#2049112 - 03/16/13 11:53 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: carey]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Well they won't go away.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049113 - 03/16/13 11:55 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4161

Pianoloverus:

Quote:
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.

Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.




That's fair. But what about the actual presence? A 9' concert Steinway has godly presence. It's insane. I don't see how speakers on a little AvantGrand-type instrument could ever match the raw experience of a 9' resonating beast. With real grand pianos, the entire piano is the speaker. All of it vibrates, not just the soundboard. I just don't see electric pianos ever being able to capture that, and if they could, it seems like they'd be too big and too expensive to have the luxury of inexpensiveness and portability. It seems like they would just be building an electric 9'. And even then would it match the raw power and organic experience of the real 9' grand's presence? I'm just not convinced.

I think the problem is when we try to match an electric instrument to an organic instrument. When the goal is to make the fake one sound like the real one, the fake one with never be as good as the real one because it's always an imitation. This is why the piano did away with the harpsichord. It wasn't just an imitation, it was an improvement. Electric pianos serve a good purpose but I think their place in music needs to be acknowledged. They do what they do well but they won't ever be a 9' Steinway.

This is all my opinion! smile
_________________________
To each his own.

Top
#2049116 - 03/16/13 11:57 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6040
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Well they won't go away.

Of course they won't wink
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2049118 - 03/16/13 12:00 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Part of the differences between Steinways is usually attributed to quality control/manufacturing inconsistencies although this has apparently improved significantly in recent years. Other makers of the highest category are generally more consistent in touch and tone although there are still differences that could make someone choose one piano of the same make and model over another.

Hybrids already have the possibility of being adjusted in terms of their touch like any acoustic piano and are not therefore all exactly the same. In terms of variety of tone, I think digitals/hybrids already have some possibility for tonal adjustmentts based on the wishes of the performer and can certainly imagine that the options in this area could increase dramatically as non acoustic instruments develop. I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.




That's fair. But what about the actual presence? A 9' concert Steinway has godly presence. It's insane. I don't see how speakers on a little AvantGrand-type instrument could ever match the raw experience of a 9' resonating beast. With real grand pianos, the entire piano is the speaker. All of it vibrates, not just the soundboard. I just don't see electric pianos ever being able to capture that, and if they ever could, it seems like they'd be too big and too expensive to ever have the luxury of inexpensiveness and portability. It seems like they would just be building an electric 9'. And even then would it match the raw power and organic experience of the real 9' grand's presence? I'm just not convinced.

I think the problem is when we try to match an electric instrument to an organic instrument. When the goal is to make the fake one sound like the real one, the fake one with never be as good as the real one because it's always an imitation. This is why the piano did away with the harpsichord. It wasn't just an imitation, it was an improvement. Electric pianos serve a good purpose but I think their place in music needs to be acknowledged. They do what they do well but they won't ever be a 9' Steinway.

This is all my opinion! smile


They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049119 - 03/16/13 12:00 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: wr]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6040
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



Status and identity, I think.

I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.



But, on the other hand, they were always prepared for a party !!
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2049120 - 03/16/13 12:01 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
I think a piano always brightens up a home. Even if someone doesn't play, its nice to have one. Whenever they have guests who are musicians they can have a bit of a singsong, and thats nice
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049121 - 03/16/13 12:02 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4161
Originally Posted By: debrucey

They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?


Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.
_________________________
To each his own.

Top
#2049123 - 03/16/13 12:04 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: JoelW]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: debrucey

They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?


Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.


Well, I have experienced it replicated, so yes it can.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049124 - 03/16/13 12:06 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4161
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: debrucey

They're not trying to sound like a 9 foot steinway, that would be ridiculous. Who has a 9 foot steinway in their study?


Well the 9' was just the most extreme example. I think the same applies to all of the well-sized grands, and even the smallest of grands. The organic, raw sound presence you get from any acoustic instrument can't be replicated as such by a non-acoustic instrument. IMO.


Well, I have experienced it replicated, so yes it can.


Really? If you were to be blindfolded and sat down at two pianos, one being the one you felt successfully replicated the organic presence of an acoustic, and the other being a 6' acoustic grand, you would NOT be able to tell which one was which? Haha c'mon man! "I have experienced it replicated" -- no you haven't! grin


Edited by JoelW (03/16/13 12:16 PM)
_________________________
To each his own.

Top
#2049135 - 03/16/13 12:38 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: debrucey]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 653
Loc: Darlington, UK
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I think a piano always brightens up a home. Even if someone doesn't play, its nice to have one. Whenever they have guests who are musicians they can have a bit of a singsong, and thats nice

Agree! But I just want, no NEED a piano in my life, any piano!
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

Top
#2049151 - 03/16/13 01:15 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Mark, BTW, did you manage to follow the Poll so far?

How is it going? Relic or not?

Could you post a list of who said what.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2049162 - 03/16/13 01:33 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: LarryShone]
personne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Toronto, Canada
The cost of acoustic piano can well make acoustic piano relics smile
My colleague says she purchased an August Foster piano for her nieces 20 years ago for 1/3 this make and size cost now.
Digital pianos have not come far in terms of sound modeling, they have a lot of room for improvement, their software is still pretty primitive. As soon as software will be able to emulate piano resonances and tonal differences at the reasonable level, only few will still purchase a 'real piano' - and not because they cannot tell the difference, but due to the cost and convenience.
Now digitals compete with entry-level acoustics, as soon as they can compete with mid-price point, there will be not too many buyers left on the market for acoustic pianos as a few have budget for high-end grands. IMO.
_________________________
Playing on Roland HP-507RW

Top
#2049172 - 03/16/13 02:06 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Digital pianos have come extremely far in terms of sound modelling, and they can emulate piano resonances.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049189 - 03/16/13 03:10 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: LarryShone]
outo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: LarryShone
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...

What!?
I think they're beautiful.

++
I can't believe it took that long for anyone to start countering it.


I found the comment to ridiculous to respond. wink

I am in shock! The thought of describing a grand piano as ugly..no I just cant picture it! :()


I'm sorry for shocking anyone...it has to be a matter of taste...I've just never liked the shape of a grand...it's somehow unbalanced... But I love to play and listen to them smile

Top
#2049204 - 03/16/13 04:04 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: carey]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2049213 - 03/16/13 04:22 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can imagine a point where a non acoustic could have thousands of different high level pianos sampled and a performer could choose among those.

True - but the "samples" come from high level acoustics. So if acoustics go away, it may be challenging in the future to get the samples...in which case, everyone loses.


Sample libraries are already vast and growing. By the time acoustic pianos have died, sampling them will no longer be necessary and people will be identifying more with the sample than the original. I imagine that a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to build a (then extinct) acoustic piano to marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were.


The sad part of all this discussion is that, aside from acoustic pianos, we will be replicating our food and other naturally derived items. "They" are already growing hamburger in a petri dish. I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. I imagine that in a couple of centuries from now, a project will be undertaken to have real sex, and marvel at how ingenious we neanderthals were, that is if, unlike the Shakers, we are still around.

Top
#2049265 - 03/16/13 06:34 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon.

One of the biggest drawbacks with most digitals are their consistent sound - too consistent. If you strike a chord with the same force several times without pedal you can easily get exactly the same sound, which is next to impossible on an acoustic, due to the 'Butterfly Effect'. That's because you're triggering the same velocity level on the DP, which any good pianist can do. The sheer consistency really does become boring in a way acoustics can never be, and contributes to the sterile effect when you try to play expressively, especially in slow music. And slow sustained music is also where sampled DPs show up their flaws: the decay sounds artificial, because it's looped and stretched: no vibrating string decays like that. (In rapidly flowing music like, say, Chopin's Op.10/2, sampled DPs can sound very convincing).

And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos - if only all the big DP manufacturers get in on the act, to spur each other on. Another advantage of modeling is that it's easy to tweak so many parameters like level of sustain, tone color, various resonances, pedal effects etc - because the sounds are generated from scratch, not already pre-recorded: there's only so much you can do to pre-recorded piano sounds before they become unacceptably synthetic-sounding.

BTW, anyone who isn't familiar with looping and stretching on DP sounds might want to drop in on the Digital Pianos forum and look at the long-standing 'DPBSD Project' thread (DP bullsh*t detector - you get the idea grin) where 'dewster' does tests on the sound samples from several DPs........

Top
#2049280 - 03/16/13 06:49 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3236
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Yeah, I have gotten a lot of good info at the DP forum. Also, if anyone in this thread has only ever played DPs in the class of Yamaha's Arius and the like, try to play an Avant Grand if you have the chance, it's pretty amazing! No headphones, no recordings, you have to play it yourself to understand what they've done.

That said, I will always prefer organic, go-out-of-tune-when-it-rains pianos!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




Top
#2049303 - 03/16/13 07:41 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mwm]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17671
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Mwm
[...]I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. [...]


"Real [sex] is ... too expensive..."? Really? I guess I'd better not ask ....
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

Top
#2049312 - 03/16/13 07:50 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: BruceD]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Mwm
[...]I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex, because the real thing is ugly, or too expensive. [...]


"Real [sex] is ... too expensive..."? Really? I guess I'd better not ask ....


Reminds me of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, as well as a Hollywood movie starring Ewan McGregor (? The Island with Scarlett Johansson)......

Top
#2049331 - 03/16/13 08:32 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I think there are already some concert pianists around who would say that a high-end digital is preferable to a vertical - any vertical, according to one well-known pianist I spoke to, after a masterclass that I attended this afternoon.


I'd probably agree with that.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#2049376 - 03/16/13 10:16 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

And that's where modeling makes all the difference, which I believe is why it will be the future of digital pianos -


I wouldn't give up on sampling yet. As the price of memory continually drops they will soon be able to make an affordable digital without loops and stretches.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2049381 - 03/16/13 10:25 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Hakki]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Mark, BTW, did you manage to follow the Poll so far?

How is it going? Relic or not?

Could you post a list of who said what.

I thought of doing a tally, but even if I had the stick-to-it-iveness to go through with it, which I'm not sure I would have grin I said the heck with it after going back over the first few posts because I wouldn't have known how to score some of them.

My impression is that it's pretty heavily in favor of "not relic," but with a substantial minority saying "relic."

Maybe something like (just making up these numbers) 55% not-relic, 30% relic, 15% "hey that's an interesting question, I can see it either way." smile

I'm not posting very much on the thread but reading everything and getting a lot out of it. What I'm getting:

-- There are stronger reasons for "never be a relic" than I'd thought.

-- I'm particularly glad to see so many fans and owners of DP's arguing "not relic."

-- Very interesting to see the analogies people are making and how they're being compared to the acoustic-vs.-digital-piano question, especially the harpsichord stuff.

-- Something I hadn't thought of before but what this thread has me thinking....I don't know if anybody said exactly this, but there've been a few posts hovering around it....
The DP has been mostly an attempt to mimic the acoustic piano. But, electronic keyboards can do a lot more than that. When I first became aware of the synthesizer, around when Moog first introduced his, I don't think there was any notion that it would mimic the piano; it was a new thing of its own, with new and unique possibilities of its own. The idea wasn't to try to be a piano, but to be all that it could be, which arguably was much more than a piano. (And of course we could say also less, but the "more" is still true.)

Moog didn't invent the synthesizer. What he did was add a piano-type keyboard to it, which made it easier to play and more accessible for more people, and which (I think) led to DP's. The whole tenor of the posts on this thread has me wondering if maybe the future of "DP's" -- DP's per se -- is NOTHING, because electronic keyboards will forget about trying to mimic a piano since it is unnecessarily limiting on what the electronic keyboard can do, and it'll go back to being a syntesizer, only this time it'll be made for the mass market.

Aren't you glad you asked.... smile

Top
#2049385 - 03/16/13 10:31 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mwm]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mwm
....I suppose that one day we'll be able to simulate sex....

Welcome to 2173.... ha


Top
#2049403 - 03/16/13 11:00 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
because electronic keyboards will forget about trying to mimic a piano because it is unnecessarily limiting on what the electronic keyboard can do, and it's go back to being a syntesizer, only this time it'll be made for the mass market.


Many if not most DP's mimic multiple instruments. The one that I use for gigs is a full-blown synthesizer that mimics nearly everything.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2049450 - 03/17/13 01:46 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 926
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Damon
... I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe. smile


At first I was aghast that anyone would write such a thing on this forum.

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.

So, when the piano becomes a relic, there will be no more piano recitals. Or people are going to travel and pay money to hear some virtuoso evoke the recorded sounds of an obsolete instrument?
Count me out.

Top
#2049454 - 03/17/13 01:57 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17671
Loc: Victoria, BC
I will be obsolete long, long before the acoustic piano will be. Some suggest I am already smile

Cheers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

Top
#2049460 - 03/17/13 02:45 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I had to remind myself what the heck an “acoustic piano” was ... (in the broad light of day) and looked up Wikipedia ... to discover that my Grotrian Steinweg (what a treasure) apparently is one of same ...
being classified as “upright” by the blokes who know all about it.

Quite agree with BruceD who thinks that he will be long since gone before acoustic pianos bite the dust ... and I'm older than him but not dead yet.

Still smelling the rose ... regards btb

Top
#2049466 - 03/17/13 03:02 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Ferdinand]
outo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
Originally Posted By: Damon
... I believe if it weren't for rich people that like the snob appeal of a grand piano as furniture, they would already be gone....maybe. smile


At first I was aghast that anyone would write such a thing on this forum.

On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.



I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks and disklaviers are getting more popular... They also want a piano that is a known brand (which around here means Yamaha or Steinway if there's a lot to spend), even if they could have good quality with less money.

I guess people who have money but are not serious about piano playing are a good thing, if they keep the acoustic piano industry alive as a whole, maybe giving more options to those of us who really want an instrument instead of furniture.

EDIT:
Some of you probably don't know how lucky you are...the market for quality used grands around here is almost non-existent...I would actually prefer an older instrument, but they are really difficult to find. The piano dealer had one small Kawai and one (white) Yamaha when I went there. Not much private market either.


Edited by outo (03/17/13 03:07 AM)

Top
#2049476 - 03/17/13 03:31 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
The Finnish chappie (who obviously values a quality piano) might like to know that age has little to do with good sound ... as long as the piano has been played frequently over it’s lifetime ...
My Grotrian Steinweg piano was built in 1912 in Germany ... and after being reconditioned recently is sound as a bell.

It is always wise to use an expert in the purchase of a piano.

Top
#2049496 - 03/17/13 05:05 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Originally Posted By: Mark_C


Aren't you glad you asked.... smile


Sure.

Thanks for the detailed analysis.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2049739 - 03/17/13 03:29 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: outo
....Some of you probably don't know how lucky you are...the market for quality used grands around here is almost non-existent...I would actually prefer an older instrument, but they are really difficult to find....

I don't know if we are. In my experience they're hard to find anywhere, if we're talking about one that's well-maintained and in good shape and (if we're picky) that we really like. I prefer them too, but only once in my several piano shoppings did I find one that was suitable.

Top
#2050005 - 03/18/13 01:26 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: SBP
I hope they don't.

Personally, I hope that acoustics will evolve away from the loud beasts they are today. That would sure make them more pleasant to play for long periods :P


This is an excellent point.

Why should all quality grands be more appropriate for the concert hall than home?


I agree 100%!

My dream is to own a fortepiano one day, because they have so much more appealing sound than the modern monsters...


A fortepiano or a chamber music inclined grand piano without the MODERN, SPACE AGE, FILL THE D**N AUDITORIUM SHOUTING TENDENCIES would be a welcome addition indeed.

Recently attended a three hour Haydn recital of Ronald Brautigam on a fortepiano and it was already plenty loud enough for the mid-sized Muziektheater aan het IJ...and this instrument would have been much preferable to listen to in my living room than my Kawai grand...(although 3 hours of Haydn sonates is enough on any instrument).

Top
#2050064 - 03/18/13 05:07 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Ideally, one should own a fortepiano for Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert; and Pleyel and Erard grands for Chopin and early Liszt. That would spare our ears from the excess loudness of modern grands which should be reserved for later Liszt, Brahms and beyond....

Top
#2050074 - 03/18/13 06:21 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Ferdinand]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand


So, when the piano becomes a relic, there will be no more piano recitals. Or people are going to travel and pay money to hear some virtuoso evoke the recorded sounds of an obsolete instrument?


I think the few people who will be interested in the old classical music for piano a few centuries from now (assuming for the sake of argument that there are any people left) will just listen to the old recordings and be satisfied with that. Sure, there may possibly be a few specialists who still play, and a few builders who make and repair instruments.

At present, all signs seem to point to people in the future relying exclusively on electronics for their sounds. And because of that, the interest in trying to create fake pianos via electronics will die out, because it's inherently pretty silly. It's silly in the same way that trying to make plastic look like wood is silly. Or trying to make movies look like stage dramas is silly. Or trying to make tofu pass as a hamburger is silly. It's all about being bogus, and while such things may serve a transitional purpose, even for a few generations, they typically do not survive.

But you never know...things always seem to take weirdly unpredictable turns.

Top
#2050089 - 03/18/13 07:00 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
The writing is already on the wall - the vast majority of people now are passive 'participants' (recipients) in music - they just listen to music on their iPods or computers, and can't play any instrument or sing.

Or they pride themselves in 'creating' and mixing playlists and call it a 'performance'. Anything that requires long effort over many years - learning classical piano for instance - is not worth the hassle. It's the age of instant gratification, reality TV shows, etc.

Just get a keyboard, press a button for the built-in rhythms and automatic chords, play a one-finger tune and you've got everything, with minimal effort.....

An acoustic piano doesn't allow you to do that. How much longer will it survive? If it hadn't been for East Asians taking up playing the piano in their millions, will there still be an acoustic piano industry?

Top
#2050119 - 03/18/13 08:36 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
As someone who has played and used digital pianos professionally ever since the early Kurtzweil (still a great piano sound!) in 1988 (actually far earlier with the first Emu sampler) up until the latest Roland V-piano and Nord's (and the ubiquitous collection of software library's, I can say, with utmost surety, that in no way will digital ever catch up with acoustic!

Digitals are great for practice at home late at night, or other situations where neighbourly concerns are paramount. They are great when played in a heavier (and there's nothing wrong with the gravity here in Sweden) orchestral situation; fusion, rock, blues, etc. Even playing classical chamber music in venues that don't have a piano a digital can suffice (I use a Roland Fp-7; ok sound, ok built-in speakers).

But no way will a heap of bytes put into plastic ever compete with a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.
_________________________
I never play anything the same way once.

Top
#2050128 - 03/18/13 08:51 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.

Top
#2050271 - 03/18/13 02:20 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: chrisbell]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: chrisbell


...... a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.


Er....are you sure about all that? wink (Maybe for some pianos and some brands....)

Top
#2050277 - 03/18/13 02:31 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
...... a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.

Er....are you sure about all that? wink (Maybe for some pianos and some brands....)

OK, OK! A dead, airless amalgamation of urethane, polyester, velcro, built with pay-by-the-hour and decades of automation and cybernation. What's the difference..... grin

But seriously folks.... ha love your answer, Chrisbell!! thumb

Top
#2050394 - 03/18/13 06:12 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
outo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.


First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...

Top
#2050400 - 03/18/13 06:26 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: outo]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.


First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...
Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.

But you are not guilty!

Top
#2050405 - 03/18/13 06:36 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
outo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 384
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.

But you are not guilty!


No problem...I may be a lot of (bad) things, but I am not generally pre...ous (cannot even spell the word) grin

Top
#2050406 - 03/18/13 06:37 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: wr]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Top
#2050407 - 03/18/13 06:48 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.

Top
#2050412 - 03/18/13 06:59 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..


Top
#2050420 - 03/18/13 07:15 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


What if someone purchased a piano to be used in a crime?
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2050426 - 03/18/13 07:26 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


What if someone purchased a piano to be used in a crime?
As long as it wasn't a tier 1 piano.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/18/13 07:31 PM)

Top
#2050456 - 03/18/13 08:14 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: chrisbell]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3725
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
[...] But no way will a heap of bytes put into plastic ever compete with a living breathing amalgamation of metal, bronze, wood, (some plastic) built with love and literally centuries of craftsmanship.


Ja. The way I like to say it is, "I am constantly amazed at the way wood, felt, steel and copper can bring such sound into the air as would plumb the depths of the human soul." Or reach into your chest and pull out your guts and crush them with unbearable sonic density... ...Or put wings on your heart and give you such breathtaking altitude... ...Or, something like that. With hide glue that goes "moo."

Another thing about acoustic pianos is durability and sheer numbers. In my neighborhood alone, you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a piano--mostly spinets and consoles. Still, of the houses on my side of the street, four in a row of five each have a piano, and one of them has three. *ahem* blush

Last week, I worked on a 1903 Schiller upright, a 1925 Conover grand, a 1952 Cable console, and a 1963 Cable spinet, all of them in reasonably good, practical working condition. And what chrisbell said about craftsmanship~~I can say in no uncertain terms that some of these old pianos are built like tanks and sound like angel choirs. They don't make 'em like they used to.

That said, I wonder if the question could be re-framed, "Will there ever be enough pianists to play all the pianos on the earth?"

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2050482 - 03/18/13 08:52 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Cinnamonbear]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


Ja. The way I like to say it is, "I am constantly amazed at the way wood, felt, steel and copper can bring such sound into the air as would plumb the depths of the human soul." Or reach into your chest and pull out your guts and crush them with unbearable sonic density... ...Or put wings on your heart and give you such breathtaking altitude... ...Or, something like that. With hide glue that goes "


I can honestly say that I never felt anything much for the console-sized vertical on which I spent the first four years learning the piano. It had (and still has, last time I checked) a shrill, tinny, shallow tone which hardly varied from p (pp wasn't possible) to ff (when it was unbearably strident), and its action was far too shallow, unresponsive and light, which made playing the pianos during the ABRSM grade exams very difficult to adapt to. Fortunately, I then went off to boarding school where the practice rooms had far superior uprights, where I made up for lost time....

My digital is a superior instrument in every way (in key action, tone, dynamic range, responsiveness to touch etc) to that vertical - which resides still in my parents' home, now unloved and unplayed by anyone...... grin

Top
#2050489 - 03/18/13 09:05 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. Why anyone buys anything may be a mystery to me, but it's none of my damned business. And I would think that piano purchases, whatever the motivation, that benefit manufacturers would be welcomed by those of you who truly are capable of producing beautiful music. Whether those who can afford it view a 9-foot Steinway as a piece of furniture, a planter, or a urinal means nothing to me. Just keep writing those checks. laugh

Top
#2050491 - 03/18/13 09:10 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
....Whether those who can afford it view a 9-foot Steinway as a.... urinal means nothing to me..... laugh

Old Man, you're pulling our, uh, leg. ha

Top
#2050492 - 03/18/13 09:11 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3725
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


Ja. The way I like to say it is, "I am constantly amazed at the way wood, felt, steel and copper can bring such sound into the air as would plumb the depths of the human soul." Or reach into your chest and pull out your guts and crush them with unbearable sonic density... ...Or put wings on your heart and give you such breathtaking altitude... ...Or, something like that. With hide glue that goes "


I can honestly say that I never felt anything much for the console-sized vertical on which I spent the first four years learning the piano. It had (and still has, last time I checked) a shrill, tinny, shallow tone which hardly varied from p (pp wasn't possible) to ff (when it was unbearably strident), and its action was far too shallow, unresponsive and light, which made playing the pianos during the ABRSM grade exams very difficult to adapt to. Fortunately, I then went off to boarding school where the practice rooms had far superior uprights, where I made up for lost time....

My digital is a superior instrument in every way (in key action, tone, dynamic range, responsiveness to touch etc) to that vertical - which resides still in my parents' home, now unloved and unplayed by anyone...... grin


I'll take it!!! grin
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2050504 - 03/18/13 09:28 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Cinnamonbear]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


I'll take it!!! grin


You'll change your mind within a minute of playing it, I guarantee you.

It still looks pristine, with nary a scratch, but many of the keys no longer sound, a few are stuck or very sticky, and all that's apart from the fact it's not been tuned and regulated for decades since I left home for greener pastures...

I remember that even when brand new, it was prone to sticking keys - quite randomly (probably because of its overly light action and sluggish key return): I actually had to manually lift the odd key back up in the middle of practising. It didn't improve in this regard after the technician's visits; it just sounded more in tune, that was all. Not knowing any better, I used to think that all pianos were like that...... cry

But I'm sure it looks good as furniture, and its top is low enough to be used as a mantelpiece for garden gnomes who prefer to be indoors wink .

Top
#2050523 - 03/18/13 10:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3725
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear


I'll take it!!! grin


You'll change your mind within a minute of playing it, I guarantee you.

It still looks pristine, with nary a scratch, but many of the keys no longer sound, a few are stuck or very sticky, and all that's apart from the fact it's not been tuned and regulated for decades since I left home for greener pastures...

I remember that even when brand new, it was prone to sticking keys - quite randomly (probably because of its overly light action and sluggish key return): I actually had to manually lift the odd key back up in the middle of practising. It didn't improve in this regard after the technician's visits; it just sounded more in tune, that was all. Not knowing any better, I used to think that all pianos were like that...... cry

But I'm sure it looks good as furniture, and its top is low enough to be used as a mantelpiece for garden gnomes who prefer to be indoors wink .


Ah, bennivis... My first reply to your initial message was that you had a lazy tech. Then, I edited that out to say, "I'll take it!" Now, I edit "lazy tech" back in. (Sorry bennevis's tech, if you're reading this.) O, what the simple key spacing tool might have done with a little twist to the front key pin... Or a little mashing of the bushing felt. Or, a little nudge of the balance rail pin with a well-placed screwdriver. Or a little sandpaper to the capstan end of the key if needed... And a quick regulating pass... Even short consoles can be opened up to hum and sing with the right tuning. I believe that a tech who knows the temperaments can fit a temperament and a stretch to each individual piano, no matter how humble, like a well tailored suit.

In any case, I commend you for your perseverance. I also believe that each pianist has a piano that fits. Personally, I prefer a light action for all that Handel and Bach and Clementi I like to play. No ff needed, either. For someone who plays the rhapsodies, though, a big, solid piano is definitely in order.

Go ahead and ship your childhood piano to me, and I'll fix it up and find it a good home. grin
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2050528 - 03/18/13 10:33 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6078
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Andy has already brought back to life many pianos. He can do it! smile
Click to reveal..
And then he can send it to me. laugh
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#2050534 - 03/18/13 10:47 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: ChopinAddict]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3725
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Andy has already brought back to life many pianos. He can do it! smile
Click to reveal..
And then he can send it to me. laugh


Thanks for the vote of confidence, CA! And, since shipping costs are not a factor in this discussion, I would gladly send it to you and charge it to bennevis! laugh
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2050600 - 03/19/13 01:55 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Old Man]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.

Top
#2050649 - 03/19/13 06:06 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Cinnamonbear]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Andy has already brought back to life many pianos. He can do it! smile
Click to reveal..
And then he can send it to me. laugh


Thanks for the vote of confidence, CA! And, since shipping costs are not a factor in this discussion, I would gladly send it to you and charge it to bennevis! laugh


I'm sure my mom won't mind the gnomes being evicted from their residence on the top of the piano (and the gnomes themselves won't mind, being inanimate objects, despite all appearances to the contrary), so that the latter can be shipped off to you. But I fear it wouldn't survive the journey across the pond......not to mention the cost of shipping is more than what the piano's worth grin.

Top
#2050655 - 03/19/13 06:32 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.


I guess I should appreciate the reminder of why I have a person with such an attitude on my ignore list, although I'd just as soon not have read the remark at all. Old Man appears to be heading in the direction of joining him and the rest who are on that list.

To me, it's a shame to waste an instrument for any reason, regardless of what I may think about why it was wasted. I am not going to go into what I think about the social malady known as conspicuous consumption and the people who practice it. Although the argument could be made that pianos can be used in that way (as in the example I gave), and therefore the topic is somehow relevant to PW, it's just not that interesting to me at the moment.

Top
#2050670 - 03/19/13 07:21 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.
That's not what I said or meant at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/19/13 07:35 AM)

Top
#2050680 - 03/19/13 07:53 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1598
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
I wish there were a compelling philosophical system that would forbid other people doing all the things I find distasteful in them. Unfortunately, I don't think such a system exists, and I conclude, rather reluctantly, that people are going to have to be allowed to set their own priorities for what they do with their time, energy, values, beliefs, opinions, and money, up to the point where their choices may inflict harm upon others or restrict the similar freedom of choice of others.

I hate that conclusion, but the alternatives have been tried, and they haven't worked all that well.


Edited by ClsscLib (03/19/13 09:10 AM)
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

Top
#2050689 - 03/19/13 08:21 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
piano shall thrive
amazing invention
one of the wonders of human creation

Top
#2050935 - 03/19/13 03:36 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: wr]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.

Spoken like a true market capitalist, and I agree 100%. ... Just keep writing those checks. laugh


That was how it came across to me too: an implicit statement that there are no values in life other than the value of the almighty dollar.


I guess I should appreciate the reminder of why I have a person with such an attitude on my ignore list, although I'd just as soon not have read the remark at all. Old Man appears to be heading in the direction of joining him and the rest who are on that list.

To me, it's a shame to waste an instrument for any reason, regardless of what I may think about why it was wasted. I am not going to go into what I think about the social malady known as conspicuous consumption and the people who practice it. Although the argument could be made that pianos can be used in that way (as in the example I gave), and therefore the topic is somehow relevant to PW, it's just not that interesting to me at the moment.

wr, you're preaching to the choir. I doubt that anyone in this forum would want to "waste" a piano, or any other instrument. We are all lovers of music, so I'm sure that most of us find the idea of buying a piano as a status symbol or a piece of furniture to be repugnant. But it happens all the time.

I won't speak for Plover, and I apologize to him for dragging him into your line of fire. But speaking only for myself, I was simply saying that all economic decisions are based on myriad motivations, some rational, some irrational, and most in between. I view buying a car as a purchase that requires as much rationality as I can muster. I favor Toyota and Honda, because as a mechanically challenged person, reliability is paramount to me. But millions of others don't give a damn about reliability. They want cars that are stylish, have loads of amenities, or are made in America. During the 1970s and 80s, when American cars were greatly inferior to foreign models, I was roundly castigated as being "un-American" for not buying from one of the Big Three. So they thought I was unpatriotic, and I thought they were irrational. But that's the nature of economics. All's fair.

When it comes to pianos, yes, I understand the reverence that a beautiful instrument commands - or should command. But we can't control the motivations of others. And my point was that regardless of why people buy pianos, the fact that pianos continue to be purchased can only serve to benefit those of us who truly do love pianos. As long as there is sufficient demand for acoustic pianos, manufacturers will prosper, or at least tread water, and that will allow those of us who dream of owning one some day to perhaps realize that dream.

Feel free to put me on ignore. At least I hope I've clarified what I was trying to say.

Top
#2050942 - 03/19/13 03:55 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
....Feel free to put me on ignore....

Very good job replying to such a post from him. I think some people don't realize enough that when so many people tick them off, they might need to look in the mirror a bit more. I think it can be found in the dictionary under "misanthrope."

Top
#2050951 - 03/19/13 04:05 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Old Man]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Old Man
I doubt that anyone in this forum would want to "waste" a piano, or any other instrument.
I'm glad you put waste in quotes because my whole point is that someone who buys a piano for reasons other than playing it isn't IMO wasting a piano. They're just as entitled to their reason to buy a piano as anyone else, and it's arrogant for someone to think their reason is the right or a better reason.

It's not as though there are too few pianos to go around to those willing to buy them. In fact, the opposite is true and so someone buying a piano for furniture doesn't prevent anyone else from buying a piano. And I think it's incredibly judgmental for someone to say that their reason to buy a piano is better than someone else's reason.

I do think it's a shame that more people can't afford pianos or can't afford really terrific pianos, but that is not the same as begrudging someone for buying a piano for reasons other than playing it.



Edited by pianoloverus (03/19/13 04:32 PM)

Top
#2050969 - 03/19/13 04:25 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Quote:

That said, I wonder if the question could be re-framed, "Will there ever be enough pianists to play all the pianos on the earth?"

--Andy


I was just thinking that as well...
_________________________
http://DulceLabs.com
Sound, Video, Design

Top
#2050974 - 03/19/13 04:36 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
... my whole point is that someone who buys a piano for reasons other than playing it isn't IMO wasting a piano. They're just as entitled to their reason to buy a piano as anyone else, and it's arrogant for someone to think their reason is the right or a better reason.

Agreed. I can just imagine a Steinway dealer vetting each of his customers, interrogating them about their "true" intentions, then making them swear an oath to faithfully love, cherish, protect, maintain, and play their new piano every day, til death do they part.

I think the average dealer thinks: I have piano. You have money. Let's trade. Thank you very much. grin

Top
#2050976 - 03/19/13 04:40 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Old Man]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
... my whole point is that someone who buys a piano for reasons other than playing it isn't IMO wasting a piano. They're just as entitled to their reason to buy a piano as anyone else, and it's arrogant for someone to think their reason is the right or a better reason.

Agreed. I can just imagine a Steinway dealer vetting each of his customers, interrogating them about their "true" intentions, then making them swear an oath to faithfully love, cherish, protect, maintain, and play their new piano every day, til death do they part.

I think the average dealer thinks: I have piano. You have money. Let's trade. Thank you very much. grin


All the punter has to do is to make the dealer an offer he cannot refuse...... wink

Top
#2051043 - 03/19/13 07:39 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: bennevis]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 730
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: bennevis

All the punter has to do is to make the dealer an offer he cannot refuse...... wink

A fellow Godfather aficionado possibly?? thumb

Top
#2051055 - 03/19/13 08:36 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 926
Loc: California

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: outo
On further reflection, there is likely some truth to it. Those of us for whom a piano is the most precious thing in the world have those rich people to thank for keeping the piano industry in existence.
You sound prejudiced against rich people.

Originally Posted By: outo
I had the idea that people buy grand pianos to play them and are willing to pay for quality work, sound and touch...this is what I am looking for and I am willing to pay much more than what I could actually afford for it.

Yet the piano dealer told me that a large proportion of his clients are more interested in how the piano looks...
There is nothing wrong in any way about buying a piano purely for its looks or purely for furniture. Your motives for buying a piano are not superior to those who buy it for furniture although you seem to think they are.


First of all, I never wrote your first quote. Secondly I was merely surprised about the motives of some people buying musical instruments that are costly and take a lot of space. I did not make any value judgement about their motives, just revealed my own. Personally I would rather buy some art to look at...
Sorry for my confusion. I mistakenly thought you had written part of the post you quoted.

I have seen too often people complaining about other people's motives for buying a piano, that some... especially "rich" people only buy them as furniture, that these people are somehow undeserving of a piano or that it's terrible that they buy them for the wrong reasons while some serious musicians can't afford a nice grand.

But you are not guilty!

I wrote the passage above that was misattributed to Outo. I am not prejudiced. I should have chosen the words more carefully. I apologize if it offended anyone.

My technician and I were talking today about various fine pianos he knows of in this area. He mentioned several that were bought for other reasons than to be played by the owners. Some of these have been badly neglected and have deteriorated.

I have no quarrel with people buying pianos that they won't play. But it's difficult for me not to think of a fine hand-crafted piano as a living thing. I wish owners had a sense of responsibility toward their instruments and toward the workers who put their soul into the making of them.

Top
#2051311 - 03/20/13 11:38 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Oh, it just warms my heart that I can't and won't be able to (for some years) afford a piano, let alone a STEINWAY of all things, and there are apparently people who buy Steinways for nothing more than furniture in their castles?????

What a wonderful world.

(I understand people can own whatever they want for whatever reasons they want - I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray? - but you can't stop me from feeling a tiny bit resentful and wish that I can too own a piano one day)


Edited by Pogorelich. (03/20/13 11:41 AM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2051336 - 03/20/13 12:32 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray?


That was the quote of the day!

Top
#2051356 - 03/20/13 12:55 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray?

That was the quote of the day!

....if not more. grin

Top
#2051387 - 03/20/13 01:52 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray? - but you can't stop me from feeling a tiny bit resentful and wish that I can too own a piano one day)


Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2051390 - 03/20/13 01:55 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Each Steinway is also one of a kind wink no piano is identical
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2051394 - 03/20/13 01:59 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!

You do realize that many people think likewise of pianos?

I sure do. Look: Even leaving aside issues of varying workmanship, even when the workers are only machines ha .....no two pieces of wood are identical.

The fact of every piano being unique (anyway I'm calling it a fact) grin is why it astonishes me that so many people seem happy to buy pianos sight-unseen (and sound-unheard), or, for that matter, to buy a piano in need of rebuilding before seeing and hearing what it'll be after the rebuilding. The nature of a piano depends on its materials, workmanship, and history, and you never know exactly what it is or what it'll be until you see.

Edit: Thanks, Pogo, for saying the same thing in just one line. ha


Edited by Mark_C (03/20/13 02:00 PM)

Top
#2051416 - 03/20/13 02:53 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 511
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!

You do realize that many people think likewise of pianos?
The comparison between art and music instruments is a good one, for two reasons.

Reason one: Nobody who buys a Picasso is asked if they know anything about art, or can paint themselves. The only requirement for buying a Picasso is the proper amount of money. The same is true for pianos, even if some people might not like it.

Reason two: The original question in this thread was, if acoustic pianos will be obsolete one day. Well, we just have to look at the world of visual arts. We have photography (now digital), we have powerful software programs that can help the artist create interesting works; and we now even have 3D printers. And yet, oil painting has not become obsolete. People still do it, people still love it, people still buy oil paintings.

So I'm optimistic that acoustic instruments, especially pianos, are here to stay.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

Top
#2051502 - 03/20/13 06:21 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Not a fair comparison since each Picasso truly is one of a kind. I would, however, love to do just that!

You do realize that many people think likewise of pianos?


Many of those people DO use their pianos as trays. smile

I still find the comparison laughable.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2051637 - 03/20/13 10:57 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
Many of those people DO use their pianos as trays. smile

I cringe at that. Even when it's on coasters. ha

Nothing is allowed to be on my piano! (Except my metronome, hygrometer, pen, glasses, phone, a second hygrometer to make sure the first one is accurate, and sheet music.)

Top
#2051641 - 03/20/13 11:03 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Nothing is allowed to be on my piano! (Except my metronome, hygrometer, pen, glasses, phone, a second hygrometer to make sure the first one is accurate, and sheet music.)
I don't even allow pens and phones. I don't have a hygrometer and I hardly use a metronome, so that leaves glasses, and sheet music.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#2051712 - 03/21/13 02:08 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6078
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I wonder if anybody bought an original Picasso just so they can use it as a tray?

That was the quote of the day!

....if not more. grin

Well, hopefully not a mirror! ha
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#2051759 - 03/21/13 06:31 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#2051772 - 03/21/13 07:18 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: -Frycek]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.


I think it is.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2051807 - 03/21/13 08:42 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Many of those people DO use their pianos as trays. smile

I cringe at that. Even when it's on coasters. ha

Nothing is allowed to be on my piano! (Except my metronome, hygrometer, pen, glasses, phone, a second hygrometer to make sure the first one is accurate, and sheet music.)


I use my Digital Piano as a tray for my hygrometers, among other things.

Top
#2051814 - 03/21/13 09:09 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 744
Loc: Dorset, UK
A person's motivation for any action is based on a value judgement. Value judgements vary between people (and within people over time).

Similarly peoples' value judgement on other people's motivations .......

Top
#2051874 - 03/21/13 11:22 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.


I think it is.


Oh boy. Please tell us you're kidding?

Or maybe that's right... and maybe that could be my ticket to being rich! Helll, I'm good looking - now just have to find a rich husband and I WILL own a Steinway!!!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2051898 - 03/21/13 12:03 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: -Frycek]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love. People do things for the wrong reasons all the time. The prime example is entering politics but I could fill a book.
I'm not sure about the merits of different reasons for marrying, but I am sure about (my opinion) of the merits of buying a piano. I didn't say the merits for doing anything are the same. Certainly the merits of different reasons for going to war are not the same.

But buying a piano for furniture or prestige or as an expensive coffee table for photos does no harm. It doesn't prevent anyone else from buying a piano because there is no shortage of pianos.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/21/13 12:06 PM)

Top
#2051901 - 03/21/13 12:06 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
It kills the soul of the piano, because that piano is never played. A piano is not a couch ...

poor piano.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2051907 - 03/21/13 12:12 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 653
Loc: Darlington, UK
I read a article from 2009 in BBC Music Magazine where Olli Mustonen had to choose a Steinway Grand from all the units on offer in the Steinway showroom. A layman might think one grand is like another, yet he chose one specific example!
Yet if they were DPs they would likely be all the same!


Edited by LarryShone (03/21/13 12:13 PM)
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

Top
#2051954 - 03/21/13 01:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Really? I suppose you think marrying for money is a valid as marrying for love.

I think it is.

Oh boy. Please tell us you're kidding?

I'm not.
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

Or maybe that's right... and maybe that could be my ticket to being rich! Helll, I'm good looking - now just have to find a rich husband and I WILL own a Steinway!!!

You wouldn't be the first.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2051961 - 03/21/13 01:37 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2051970 - 03/21/13 01:52 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
It kills the soul of the piano, because that piano is never played. A piano is not a couch ...

poor piano.
The soul of the piano?

Even if one agreed that pianos have souls, I think you're assuming what that would somehow imply they must be used as musical instruments.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/21/13 01:58 PM)

Top
#2052025 - 03/21/13 03:35 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17671
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha


And think about the number of cultures where arranged marriages - marriages arranged for the mutual benefit of the families concerned, not for that of the marrying couple - are the norm. Those marriages are arranged on the basis of social and financial standing as well as on religious compatibility.

Does one consider the "fairness" or the "morality" of such marriages. Yes, perhaps, but only if viewed from a North American perspective. It's hard for some of us to understand how fair and moral arranged marriages can be when we aren't raised in the social context where such are the norm.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

Top
#2052033 - 03/21/13 03:51 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
It kills the soul of the piano, because that piano is never played. A piano is not a couch ...

poor piano.
The soul of the piano?

Even if one agreed that pianos have souls, I think you're assuming what that would somehow imply they must be used as musical instruments.


No, I'm sorry - they we're built to be used for firewood.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2052085 - 03/21/13 06:03 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 511
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

Top
#2052092 - 03/21/13 06:23 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha


Is love fair to anybody?
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2052105 - 03/21/13 06:59 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: patH]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?


Yes....... To the person with the cash.

Damon - what kind of a question is that? You think it's fair for some broad to marry a rich guy while not giving a damn about him, possibly having affairs left and right - is that fair to the guy, really? Is that better than two people in love getting married?

I am a cynic too at times, but come on... Love is the most powerful thing in the world and a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2052111 - 03/21/13 07:11 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4161
What Pogo said.
_________________________
To each his own.

Top
#2052118 - 03/21/13 07:31 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17671
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
[...]Is that better than two people in love getting married?

[...] a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?

Click to reveal..
Obviously didn't bother to read my comment traditional arranged marriages that are the social backbone of many societies.
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

Top
#2052124 - 03/21/13 07:45 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 511
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: patH
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?


Yes....... To the person with the cash.

Not if they know what they're getting into.

In my opinion, if both parties are consenting to have a marriage based on material values (e.g. one party wants a trophy, the other party wants money), then I have no problem with them marrying.

However, I disagree with arranged marriages, if at least one spouse does not want to be married, and is unhappy in the marriage.

But a piano will not feel that. Although I'm not happy at the thought of a well-crafted piano just standing in a room without being played, I accept that a piano is not a person.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

Top
#2052128 - 03/21/13 08:03 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: BruceD]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
[...]Is that better than two people in love getting married?

[...] a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?

Click to reveal..
Obviously didn't bother to read my comment traditional arranged marriages that are the social backbone of many societies.


I am European.

OH! and why do you assume that the marriages based on "love" are the only ones to fall apart?


Edited by Pogorelich. (03/21/13 08:04 PM)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2052130 - 03/21/13 08:08 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: patH]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: patH


But a piano will not feel that. Although I'm not happy at the thought of a well-crafted piano just standing in a room without being played, I accept that a piano is not a person.


Yes, let's not forget that. A piano (acoustic or otherwise) is just as happy gathering dust as getting pounded daily by a ham-fisted would-be virtuoso. Or being used as an over-sized tray, or as an objet d'art, to impress the snooty arty types.

Ideally, of course, a piano should have at least two purposes, just as all humans (not just of the fairer sex) should be able to multi-task. Life is too short to be single-tasking in today's frenetic age. So, my piano is used as a tray, to hold some of my voluminous volumes of music scores, stacked up high on either side of the music stand; it is getting pounded daily by a would-be ham-fisted virtuoso (me); and last but not least, it is also gathering dust (as I haven't dusted it since it arrived in my humble abode).

Top
#2052143 - 03/21/13 08:56 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
[...]Is that better than two people in love getting married?

[...] a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Said, obviously, by a young starry-eyed romantic from a decidedly North American point of view. Given that the American divorce rate is almost 50% (46% in 2012), how strong an argument is that for "marrying for love"?

I am European.

OH! and why do you assume that the marriages based on "love" are the only ones to fall apart?


Not to mention that those same cultures that arrange marriages generally won't allow marriages to fall apart. Marriage statistics in such a culture are practically irrelevant. These people are culturally forced to accept their lot in life.

I don't care if some cultures claim that arranged marriages have their virtues or higher success rates - I think it's a basic human right and responsibility to choose one's own spouse. People should be able to take responsibility to determine their own destiny (regardless of whether half of them end in divorce). Whether or not a marriage hangs together is not the only thing at stake in marriage. There is freedom, risk and discovery in choosing your own spouse - and so there should be. We shouldn't view marriage as something that is locked in and guaranteed just because you manage to get somebody to sign on a dotted line. The relationship must promote growth and happiness, and if it can't be made to deliver that, it should fall apart.

Some relationships aren't meant to last forever - doesn't mean they don't function in highly significant ways to a person's life. We are on this earth to develop every bit as much as we are to live in a stable domestic home life. Most people who divorce or remarry are just as happy with how their life has gone as those who rigidly stuck to the one person their whole life and resented many things about that life.

No amount of "cultural" talk has ever convinced me otherwise on arranged marriages. It's a regressive step for humanity. Something from the dark ages. Controlling behaviour, impeding freedom, promoting class-based societies. Not for me. I'd take 50% failure rate of marriages in a free society over 100% success rate marriages in an arranged marriage society. The former allows personal growth, the second holds people by rules.

Anyway, anyone like pianos? grin

Top
#2052193 - 03/21/13 11:41 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

Damon - what kind of a question is that? You think it's fair for some broad to marry a rich guy while not giving a damn about him, possibly having affairs left and right - is that fair to the guy, really? Is that better than two people in love getting married?


As long as they are two consenting adults, I don't see that it's any worse. Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

I am a cynic too at times, but come on... Love is the most powerful thing in the world and a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


I see a lot of evidence that people want to marry for financial benefit. You can live with someone and "love" them without getting married. Just ask Goldie Hawn or Susan Sarandon.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2052200 - 03/21/13 11:56 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?

Top
#2052201 - 03/22/13 12:05 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Yes... It's attraction. We all have it all the time. But the other kind of love.. Lasts for a long long time.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2052203 - 03/22/13 12:13 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8696
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Yes... It's attraction. We all have it all the time. But the other kind of love.. Lasts for a long long time.

That can happen. I am hoping so.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2052205 - 03/22/13 12:15 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Sure, but I wouldn't marry for the other kinds.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2052225 - 03/22/13 01:14 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Sure, but I wouldn't marry for the other kinds.


You would feel right at home in my city. Prostitution is legal by the act, by the minute, by the hour, by the day, you name it.

No marriage contract required to get a materially less well off partner to prostitute herself or himself in a longterm transactional relationship in exchange for money ...

Top
#2052226 - 03/22/13 01:14 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..



Who is the arbiter of what is reasonable? Pianoloverus, I presume?

Your strong objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments regarding the Steinway-as-furniture motives of piano purchasers is itself a value judgment which you wish to impose on others here...

Quite unreasonable, if you ask me.

Top
#2052288 - 03/22/13 06:10 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: carey]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: outo

And why would anyone want a grand as furniture? No matter how much I want one they are actually pretty ugly things...



Status and identity, I think.

I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.



But, on the other hand, they were always prepared for a party !!

You mean by having it always at the ready to serve as a sideboard to set drinks on?

The piano was never played at parties (which occurred once per year, exactly). I don't know why - either she didn't invite anyone who played, or, if she did, they still didn't play it for some reason.

But then, AFAIK, she never had it tuned, either - who knows what it would have sounded like. It was a Steinway, if I remember my landlord's description of it correctly.

Top
#2052290 - 03/22/13 06:31 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7429
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: patH
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
And would it be fair to anybody?

And I thought -I- had no morals haha
A better question IMO: Would it be unfair to anybody?


Yes....... To the person with the cash.

Damon - what kind of a question is that? You think it's fair for some broad to marry a rich guy while not giving a damn about him, possibly having affairs left and right - is that fair to the guy, really? Is that better than two people in love getting married?

I am a cynic too at times, but come on... Love is the most powerful thing in the world and a marriage is kind of cheapened if the main reason for getting hitched is money or whatever else...


Where I live, there is a neighborhood magazine specifically catering to the wealthiest area of the city, and in it, the society column announcing engagements and marriages is called "Mergers and Acquisitions". Need I say more?

Top
#2052304 - 03/22/13 07:03 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Here in the UK, well-heeled young women go to débutant parties organized by their parents where the rich and the good of both sexes get together to socialise, swap phone numbers.....and eventually marry. That way, they get the partners of the same standing in society (whatever that is), and none of the wrong class......

Going back to arranged marriages, there are a lot more problems than just incompatible partners and love (or lack of it). There is a very significant genetic problem because these arranged marriages aim to keep wealth etc within the 'family', which means first cousins often marry each other, leading to a very high incidence of genetic defects like microcephaly in their offspring. This is unfortunately very common in countries - and cultures - where arranged marriages are commonplace.

Top
#2052305 - 03/22/13 07:15 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wr
I had a neighbor living in a second-floor apartment who went to enormous expense not only to acquire a grand piano, but to remove a window and its frame so as to slide the thing, which was dangling from a crane that had been hired, through the opening and into the apartment, because the stairwell was too tight to get it in via that more normal route. And after all that, it was never played at all, but just sat there, apparently as some kind of symbol of something.
So what? No one's reason or motive or buying a grand piano is any better or worse than anyone else's reason.


Interesting thought.

So when a person buys a bushel of rice to dump it into a ditch, this is the same as someone buying a bushel of rice and distributing it to the poor and hungry. All purchase motives are equal.
I was speaking about pianos and not rice. When I said that anyone's reason for buying a piano being just as good as anyone else's, I was thinking of at least reasonable motives.

But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..
Who is the arbiter of what is reasonable? Pianoloverus, I presume?
If you actually think using a piano to commit murder and using a piano as furniture are equally reasonable or equally unreasonable you are in a very tiny minority.

Originally Posted By: theJourney
Your strong objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments regarding the Steinway-as-furniture motives of piano purchasers is itself a value judgment which you wish to impose on others here...
I have no objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments and never said anything like that. I said I disagreed with those those judgements which is totally different.

Top
#2052310 - 03/22/13 07:25 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
....Love is usually a passing notion. More hormones than anything else.

Would you agree that maybe that's just one kind of love?


Sure, but I wouldn't marry for the other kinds.


You would feel right at home in my city. Prostitution is legal by the act, by the minute, by the hour, by the day, you name it.


That was quite a leap. The only other kinds of love that I recognize are the kind one has for their parents or children, children being the closest to unconditional love. The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife. In my later years now I prefer to be a hermit. Your city holds no attraction for me.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2052311 - 03/22/13 07:26 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Mark_C]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: Europe
Welcome to MarriageHome.com! (which actually is a site (up for sale) so don't click it! wink
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2052333 - 03/22/13 08:26 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Damon
The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife.


Indeed. That was what I understood.

We seem to have very different ideas about the foundation upon which a healthy marriage should be built. I can understand why being a hermit might be preferable to such an arrangement.

Top
#2052337 - 03/22/13 08:38 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: pianoloverus]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
You say now:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I have no objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments and never said anything like that. I said I disagreed with those those judgements which is totally different.

While you said before:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..



To strongly object to those who complain is not the same thing as strongly objecting to opinions held or values not shared.

We can't read your mind, we can only go on what you write here. And your words seem to be quite clear.

Top
#2052354 - 03/22/13 09:11 AM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: theJourney
You say now:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I have no objection to others being allowed to express their value judgments and never said anything like that. I said I disagreed with those those judgements which is totally different.

While you said before:
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
But I do strongly object to those who complain about someone buying a piano only as furniture or for status or because they think it's nice to have, etc..
To strongly object to those who complain is not the same thing as strongly objecting to opinions held or values not shared. We can't read your mind, we can only go on what you write here. And your words seem to be quite clear.
I think my words were clear as I originally wrote it and they meant what I said in my last post. When you put part of what I said in boldface you conveniently didn't boldface the rest of the sentence which completed the thought. If one objects to those who complain about something specific, that would normally mean one objects to what they said and not simply to the act of complaining.




Edited by pianoloverus (03/22/13 01:45 PM)

Top
#2052430 - 03/22/13 12:10 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: theJourney]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife.


Indeed. That was what I understood.

We seem to have very different ideas about the foundation upon which a healthy marriage should be built. I can understand why being a hermit might be preferable to such an arrangement.


I thought you might be leaning towards the idea of a "soul mate" which, in my book, puts you in unicorn-land. Companionship is perfectly legitimate but I don't equate that to love.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#2052441 - 03/22/13 12:34 PM Re: Poll (sort of): Will the 'acoustic piano' become a relic? [Re: Damon]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: Damon
The kind of love that would have me seek out a prostitute is the same that would have me seek a wife.


Indeed. That was what I understood.

We seem to have very different ideas about the foundation upon which a healthy marriage should be built. I can understand why being a hermit might be preferable to such an arrangement.


I thought you might be leaning towards the idea of a "soul mate" which, in my book, puts you in unicorn-land. Companionship is perfectly legitimate but I don't equate that to love.


Just because you couldn't find it, or had it one day and lost it, doesn't mean it's not there. Obviously something bad has made you think this way, and I can only feel sorry for you.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
75 registered (alfredo capurso, ASLevelMusicTheory, Atrys, accordeur, BB Player, 14 invisible), 1150 Guests and 42 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74264 Members
42 Forums
153619 Topics
2251532 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Noodling board
by Maarkr
04/20/14 10:20 PM
New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
by hsheck
04/20/14 10:17 PM
Understanding Sharps
by imustlearn
04/20/14 08:18 PM
When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
by Eight Octaves
04/20/14 08:09 PM
DEBUSSY-"Serenade for the Doll" from 'Children's Corner'
by Hal Freedman
04/20/14 07:14 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission