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#2097627 - 06/07/13 03:36 AM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: Mike_Martin]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
VoxPops - Here is another piano for you. See the link below. Lowered initial attack with full dynamic range as the original Concert Grand. I'd have to dig into programming a Hex Layer based piano do anything more radically different than this which I may do at a later date.

Leaving for vacation tomorrow. Catch you guys in a week or so.

http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/file/44-concert-grand-v2/


Hex based piano ; that's going to be great - much more parameters to tweak the sound to your liking. Great service Mike and have a nice and well deserved holiday !

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#2098041 - 06/07/13 06:08 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2910
Loc: Oregon
Just spent literally a few seconds with Mike's new piano - sounds good! I've got to start getting gear together for tonight, so it'll be a "suck it and see" situation, but seems like Mike's done a great job creating a smoother piano tone. Just shows how flexible the PX is, even though I think I'll leave the programming to younger, more agile minds.

Don't know if I've mentioned this before, but The PX seems like the MP6's younger sibling. They both share similar hands-on plus in-depth control, and can both muster a range of sounds for tweaking. Obviously the PX has a much deeper synth capability, but essentially they do the same job. Nice!

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#2099472 - 06/09/13 05:10 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: voxpops]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Just spent literally a few seconds with Mike's new piano - sounds good! I've got to start getting gear together for tonight, so it'll be a "suck it and see" situation, but seems like Mike's done a great job creating a smoother piano tone. Just shows how flexible the PX is, even though I think I'll leave the programming to younger, more agile minds.


It's really cool once you "look under the hood" to see how the sounds are created and layered. For the less technically minded (like me), I do recommended using the free data editor to visually see how a sound is generated from the oscillator level, and then how the oscillators are all combined to make a hex-layer, and then how the hex-layers can combine to make the Stage Settings. It's a very powerful engine.
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#2100573 - 06/10/13 07:29 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 568
Loc: Mt View, CA
@MM - How are you making these sounds, and can end users do the same thing?!

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#2100608 - 06/10/13 08:22 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: xorbe]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2910
Loc: Oregon
For those needing a music rest for their PX-5S, I just discovered a useful, quick and dirty solution using the K&M 18880 and the Nord music rest. I was thinking about attaching brackets to the Casio to take the Nord or SV-1 rests when I discovered that the Nord rest is just long enough to be attached to the 18880 with suitable clips or other devices. At this stage it's not very aesthetically pleasing, but I'll work on that.






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#2100612 - 06/10/13 08:36 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: xorbe]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 381
Originally Posted By: xorbe
@MM - How are you making these sounds, and can end users do the same thing?!


The front panel, nothing more
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-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2100669 - 06/10/13 10:42 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: voxpops]
Nomadness Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 145
Loc: Friday Harbor, WA
Looks good, Vox! I'll post my PX-5S music stand here too, just so anyone searching on this topic can see a variety of solutions in one place. I used a stock Manhasset music desk (20" wide and 12" tall) and raised it 5 inches with folding legs... then wrote a little how-to article:

http://nomadness.com/how-to/music-stand-px-5s-digital-piano

-Steve


Edited by Nomadness (06/10/13 10:47 PM)
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#2100752 - 06/11/13 02:37 AM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
sabored Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/06/10
Posts: 10
How does the board on the Privia PX-350 compare with the PX-5s?


From the demos I've heard the PX-5s sounds way better, but I need something with built in speakers for improntu jam sessions

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#2100781 - 06/11/13 03:49 AM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: sabored]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: sabored
How does the board on the Privia PX-350 compare with the PX-5s?


From the demos I've heard the PX-5s sounds way better, but I need something with built in speakers for improntu jam sessions


The keyboard action is the same but if built-in speakers are a deal-breaker, only the 350 has them: 2 x 8W


For me, though, the sonic power of the PX-5S makes it worth bringing a little battery powered amp with. Speaking of that, the PX-5S can run on 8aa's... you need power for the 350.

It all depends on what you need more. smile
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#2100971 - 06/11/13 02:54 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: Scott Hamlin]
sabored Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/06/10
Posts: 10
Is the piano sound similar? What is AIR?
Is the PX-5S just a 350 with more synth tones and more flexibility?


Why can't Casio make a PX-5S with built in speakers! cry

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#2100986 - 06/11/13 03:25 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: sabored]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: sabored
Is the piano sound similar? What is AIR?
Is the PX-5S just a 350 with more synth tones and more flexibility?


Why can't Casio make a PX-5S with built in speakers! cry


- The piano sounds are similar, but you can really dial in your "perfect" sound on the 5S.

- AiR stands for "Acoustic and intelligent Resonator" - you can read more about it here. http://www.casio-europe.com/euro/emi/airspecial/air/

- The PX-5S is a completely different beast than a 350. Completely.

- Not many stage pianos come with built in speakers. As for making the PX-5S with speakers: Where the speakers go on the 350 is where the sliders, knobs and battery compartment are on the PX-5S.


Honestly, you can't go wrong with either one. I like to design my own sounds and be able to load those made by others into my keyboards, so I choose the PX-5S.
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#2100991 - 06/11/13 03:29 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: Scott Hamlin]
sabored Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/06/10
Posts: 10
Thanks for the help.

I need to do some more research, though I'm most likely going to settle on the 350.

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#2101003 - 06/11/13 03:46 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: sabored]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: sabored
Thanks for the help.

I need to do some more research, though I'm most likely going to settle on the 350.


Happy to help. smile
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#2101005 - 06/11/13 03:47 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: Scott Hamlin]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
Originally Posted By: Plinky88
Not many stage pianos come with built in speakers.

There are quite a few that do, though. Roland FP50/80/4F/7F, Yamaha P155/CP300, Kawai ES7, Kurz SPS4-8, Korg SP250/280...

Originally Posted By: Plinky88
As for making the PX-5S with speakers: Where the speakers go on the 350 is where the sliders, knobs and battery compartment are on the PX-5S.

I'd rather have a speaker than the batteries, oh well.

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#2101009 - 06/11/13 03:55 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: anotherscott]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Plinky88
Not many stage pianos come with built in speakers.

There are quite a few that do, though. Roland FP50/80/4F/7F, Yamaha P155/CP300, Kurz SPS4-8, Korg SP250/280...

Originally Posted By: Plinky88
As for making the PX-5S with speakers: Where the speakers go on the 350 is where the sliders, knobs and battery compartment are on the PX-5S.

I'd rather have a speaker than the batteries, oh well.


That's why I put "It all depends on what you need more." smile

And yes, the DP's you listed do have speakers, but most them are not what I would call (nor are they all marketed as) stage pianos. Most of them are home/live hybrids that are in a slab form and work great on-stage. Take the Korg SP80 marketing collateral, for example: "Beautiful piano sound, with a stylish design that matches your décor."

JMHO, of course. It is all semantics, after all. smile
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#2101021 - 06/11/13 04:26 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: Scott Hamlin]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
Originally Posted By: Plinky88
Take the Korg SP80 marketing collateral, for example: "Beautiful piano sound, with a stylish design that matches your décor."

That is indeed the first line of its web page. But guess what's in the title bar?
http://www.korg.com/sp280
"Portable Digital Stage Piano"
and the next paragraph... "ideal for your home or as a partner on stage."
I know what you mean though, it's semantics, but really, most if not all the ones I mentioned are marketed, at least in part, as stage pianos. Kawai ES7 offers an "Optional soft road case with wheels." The Kurz is on their stage piano page and not on their home piano page. And so on. But I do think that Casio did not put speakers in the model because they feel that the lack of speakers makes it seem "more professional" in terms of showroom floor perception (unfortunately).

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#2101031 - 06/11/13 04:48 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: anotherscott]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Plinky88
Take the Korg SP80 marketing collateral, for example: "Beautiful piano sound, with a stylish design that matches your décor."

That is indeed the first line of its web page. But guess what's in the title bar?
http://www.korg.com/sp280
"Portable Digital Stage Piano"
and the next paragraph... "ideal for your home or as a partner on stage."
I know what you mean though, it's semantics, but really, most if not all the ones I mentioned are marketed, at least in part, as stage pianos. Kawai ES7 offers an "Optional soft road case with wheels." The Kurz is on their stage piano page and not on their home piano page. And so on. But I do think that Casio did not put speakers in the model because they feel that the lack of speakers makes it seem "more professional" in terms of showroom floor perception (unfortunately).


I don't want to get too OT, but I do know what you mean. I think most makers are trying to capture both the home and live markets by appealing to both. It's kind of like when they made SUV's a lot smaller and wagon or hatchback-like and still call them SUV's.

May make an interesting topic for a new thread. smile
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#2101066 - 06/11/13 05:39 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: Scott Hamlin]
sabored Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/06/10
Posts: 10
It seems most makers never truly build something that's perfect for you. You can spend months searching for something that fits your needs and you won't find it. I'm stuck in that position now.

I think it has a lot to do with internal competition and not letting someone get what's best, although it's more than possible.

If a company went ahead and released a ~$1k keyboard that included nothing other than an extremely advanced piano sound, like something you would get in a $4k model, it would do great. It wouldn't cost them anything either, but now what reason do people have for buying the $4k model?

I have no doubt that they purposely and meticulously omit certain features over their product line up so people have to spend months searching. Or at least it seems that way mad


It never matters in the end though, you always learn to deal with what you've got.

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#2101073 - 06/11/13 05:51 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: sabored]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
Originally Posted By: sabored
If a company went ahead and released a ~$1k keyboard that included nothing other than an extremely advanced piano sound, like something you would get in a $4k model, it would do great. It wouldn't cost them anything either, but now what reason do people have for buying the $4k model?

There are $4,000+ models that have, essentially, nothing but piano sounds. Check the Yamaha CP1 and Roland V-Piano. There's no reason to assume they could make these for $1,000. In fact, these companies make sub-$2k models that have piano sounds partially derived from these flagships (i.e. CP50, FP50) and these models have hundreds of other (non-piano) sounds as well. What that implies to me is that it is likely that the other sounds are relatively cheap, and the thing that's expensive is to get the piano sound as right as they can.

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#2101075 - 06/11/13 05:57 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: sabored]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: sabored
It seems most makers never truly build something that's perfect for you. You can spend months searching for something that fits your needs and you won't find it. I'm stuck in that position now.

I think it has a lot to do with internal competition and not letting someone get what's best, although it's more than possible.

If a company went ahead and released a ~$1k keyboard that included nothing other than an extremely advanced piano sound, like something you would get in a $4k model, it would do great. It wouldn't cost them anything either, but now what reason do people have for buying the $4k model?

I have no doubt that they purposely and meticulously omit certain features over their product line up so people have to spend months searching. Or at least it seems that way mad


It never matters in the end though, you always learn to deal with what you've got.


Very well put. And it's all very personal, isn't it? What I think is important, you may not care about at all.

It's very wise to compare every option available and then decide what you can live with or without.

Let us know what you end up with!



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#2101085 - 06/11/13 06:09 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: anotherscott]
sabored Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/06/10
Posts: 10
I'd like to know how much it actually costs them to build these keyboards. I really can't see the price of one going over maybe $1,250 unless they use some kind of special wood or something.

Of course the sample gathering and programming is tedious, but if the same sounds are shared between 10 different models it shouldn't reflect.


But, honestly, I know absolutely nothing about the reality of the topic. So please don't mock me, just inform me crazy
Plastic is cheap!

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#2101094 - 06/11/13 06:25 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: sabored]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: sabored
I'd like to know how much it actually costs them to build these keyboards. I really can't see the price of one going over maybe $1,250 unless they use some kind of special wood or something.

Of course the sample gathering and programming is tedious, but if the same sounds are shared between 10 different models it shouldn't reflect.


But, honestly, I know absolutely nothing about the reality of the topic. So please don't mock me, just inform me crazy
Plastic is cheap!


There's a lot more involved than you would think. Apart from R/D and manufacturing it, you need to market it, ship it, support it, and warranty it. Take all those incurred costs (and whatever I missed!) and then add in a well-earned profit for the manufacturer and the distributer and/or retailer.
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#2101281 - 06/12/13 01:04 AM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: anotherscott]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 458
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
...I do think that Casio did not put speakers in the model because they feel that the lack of speakers makes it seem "more professional" in terms of showroom floor perception (unfortunately).

I'd go along with this had I not experienced something contrary in a showroom. Of course it will depend on the store but a lot of these will be sold through Guitar Centers and other stores with large inventories on display. When I checked out the PX5S at Guitar Center it was within one of three semi-enclosed rooms filled with keyboards ready to play. There were probably 50+ different keyboards to try.

Most of the keyboards within the three rooms were hooked up to external speakers. I think at least one piano in a wood cabinet was relying on its own speakers. A CP300 was being played through its built-in speakers and sounded very good. I suspect those speakers are better than what comes with most keyboards (the piano sound too). There was a large wall of keyboards on the outside of this three room area that had a few keyboards using their built-in speakers, I recall.

As far as showroom perception goes none or all could have had speakers and it wouldn't make a difference when they were hooked up to external speakers. Most/many(?) built-in speakers blend in with the top surface. The Yamaha CP300 is an exception looking like the speakers in the back window of a car but many built-in speakers on keyboards could go unnoticed in a showroom.

What visibly stands out in a showroom of slab pianos are the controls, lights, LED, and keys. The PX5S also stands out because it is white. If you were not looking for them you would not know whether it had built-in speakers or not. Once you get your hands on one I think speakers would be well down the list of things you investigated when trying one out in a showroom. I could see someone (relatively inexperienced and awestruck) buying one and not realizing it didn't have speakers until they set it up at home.

As Anotherscott has mentioned before, the PX5S body shares a lot of the PX-350's body/chasis. Casio did not build the PX5S from scratch. It was a trade-off. The speakers were probably tossed out as non-essential for a gigging piano/synth early in the planning stage. If they were going to aim for a light weight piano/synth using the PX-350 body/chasis as a base they had to find room for all of the synth ingredients. Removing speakers was an easy solution considering external speakers in some form are often used by gigging musicians.

If there had been room I think Casio would have included speakers in the PX5S because it isn't exclusively a professional stage piano. I think it may be appealing to people wanting a very nice piano with extra sound material/goodies that surpasses any of the extra sounds offered in other digital pianos at a price people can afford. It doesn't have the easy recording/lesson element but the synth will represent loads of fun for recreational enthusiasts.

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#2101316 - 06/12/13 03:22 AM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: o0Ampy0o]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
If they were going to aim for a light weight piano/synth using the PX-350 body/chasis as a base they had to find room for all of the synth ingredients. Removing speakers was an easy solution considering external speakers in some form are often used by gigging musicians.

If there had been room I think Casio would have included speakers in the PX5S

I don't think so. I think Mike Martin has actually said that it was a decision based primarily on market positioning/perceptions, if not on the PX-5S, then on its predecessor the PX-3 (which was similarly a "more professional" unit based on the PX-330 chassis). I think some people are pre-disposed to not take keyboards with speakers seriously, and some people don't take Casios seriously, so having both of those "strikes" in the same box could be especially problematic! I think you have to look outside the world of DPs that we focus on here, and look at the PX-5S in terms of how it competes in the broader synth market to see this angle.

Another issue I think he raised about the PX-5S was that, on a showroom floor, a model with speakers might be played through its (small) speakers, while competitive models without speakers would necessarily be played through amps, which likely cost half again what the keyboard cost or more, and they would tend to sound better. And this is also related to market positioning... whether you're looking for the consumer who is going to be comparing your board to other boards with built in speakers, or the consumer who is more likely to be comparing your board to competitive models without speakers.

There are pros and cons to these things, I'm not saying I agree with not having speakers in it, but I do see the points. What I would have liked, which I think could make everyone happy, would be to ship the unit without speakers, and then have an optional speaker module that could be purchased and dropped into the chassis for those who want it.

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#2101325 - 06/12/13 04:34 AM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/12
Posts: 458
I thought about it later but I should have included that I am closer to the inexperienced awestruck guy that might walk out with a PX5S not knowing I needed to add speakers than anything except I am a pretty thorough researcher when shopping for something. I have mentioned a few times but also need to repeat that I am just a noodler on keyboards. So looking around a showroom is quite different for me.

I had a PX-350 that I returned while still eligible to prepare for a PX5S. By the time they were available in stores I had realized it was too much of what I would not use. I mainly used the PX-350 as a controller with software synths and pianos. I just play at home. I ended up opting for simplicity and picked up a PX-150.

In that post of yours I had quoted I did not think you were speaking of experienced professionals. Do you see them making the assessment that built-in speakers are less professional?

I wonder why Casio chose to use "Casio" when they started producing instruments for serious musicians. Why not start a separate division under a name that is not associated with Casio if they were interested in a professional instrument image. "Privia" designates a level but it is still Casio Privia. They had to push a rock up hill with that decision. Opinions of Casio are changing but isn't it easier to introduce something new than to change an opinion of something old?

Regarding the speaker output and its influence on perception of a product, if in the position I would have set up a showroom like I described at GC so people would focus on everything else about the keyboard and consider the speakers at the end.




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#2101451 - 06/12/13 12:23 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
Deltron Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 19
I was also tore between the PX-350 and the PX-5S. Chose to wait for the PX-5S, and am planning to get it in july/august. I am a bit afraid that it isnt going to be too user friendly though (concidering the reviews i have read). Would love built in speakers too, since it is mostly for home use, but i am still leaning over towards the PX-5S.
I know i have asked this before, but would anyone reckon external monitors as a disadvantage for homeuse? (board vibrating etc.)
Unfortunately no stores in my town carry the PX-350 and the PX-5S wont be here til august.

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#2101470 - 06/12/13 01:19 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2910
Loc: Oregon
Deltron, personally I'm not overly keen on the speakers in the PX-350, and while it's nice to get a little tactile feedback from the speaker vibrations, if they don't sound good I'd rather use monitors anyway.

As to the user-friendly aspect, for basic use, once you understand the omnipresence of stage settings, it's easy to navigate. Programming can be a much deeper operation, particularly in respect of hex layers. I'm going to take my time on that front, and maybe play around a little using the PC editor - I wouldn't want to edit hex layers from the little LCD screen.

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#2101673 - 06/12/13 07:39 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: CyberGene]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 568
Loc: Mt View, CA
No speakers because: it adds unwanted weight for its intended purpose, and would suck the life out of the batteries.

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#2101685 - 06/12/13 07:57 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: xorbe]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3075
I wouldn't mind if the speakers only operated when the unit was plugged into AC. (Though if the unit had a speaker, you probably couldn't have the battery compartment in the first place!)

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#2101737 - 06/12/13 09:53 PM Re: I have a Casio PX-5S GAS [Re: voxpops]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 531
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Programming can be a much deeper operation, particularly in respect of hex layers. I'm going to take my time on that front, and maybe play around a little using the PC editor - I wouldn't want to edit hex layers from the little LCD screen.


I will say, once I spent some time with the Data Editor I understand the work and signal flow better, so I am MUCH more comfortable using the front panel to "dig deep". smile
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