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#2049058 - 03/16/13 09:25 AM Adding a subwoofer
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
I'm using a set of Adam Artist 6 monitors for my DP. Great sounding speakers, but I'm missing the lows. The matching sub from Adam is pretty expensive so I was wondering if it would matter much to add a cheaper sub instead from a different brand.
I'm thinking that a sub is merely a big woofer that sits in a box on the floor handling notes that doesn't need much attention to detail. Am I wrong?
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Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#2049059 - 03/16/13 09:32 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
enzo.sandrolini Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Europe - France
Hello
I have just today added a subwoofer to a Casio P350
First, I had plugged my Yamaha HS50 monitors but the pairing subwoofer is really expensive
So I took a simple hifi subwoofer (yamaha yst 30) for 99 euros, and I can say. WOW..
it adds an incredible new dimension to the sound (I must also say that I find the AIR sound from Casio really good)
So in my experience, it worked with a basic subwoofer

But I wondered how to plug it to the DP...
As there is only one line out where I plugged the stereo monitors...
I tried to plug the subwoofer on the headphone plug...but the sound was quite poor
Then I used a my Home theater amplifier to plug everything on it (the DP to the amplifier, and the stereo monitors + subwoofer to the amplifer) => the sound is perfect.
How do you plan to connect this subwoofer

Cheers


Edited by enzo.sandrolini (03/16/13 09:33 AM)
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#2049071 - 03/16/13 09:59 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
piRround Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 319
Loc: Yarmouth, Maine
I recently added a sub to my KRK5s. I have a MOX8 and a korg microarranger and a line mixer. It's really almost overkill — I have a small room—but the added bass is great on certain beats and sounds. The monitor cables go into the sub which goes in to the mixer and the keyboards have lines into the mixer. I kept an eye out on ebay and picked up the KRK 10S sub for a pretty good price. The bonus is that finally my music on itunes sounds good too. Now if I could only play better everything would be perfect.
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Sandy


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#2049072 - 03/16/13 10:17 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
Adding a sub to my Yamaha CLP340 kills the bass because it is in phase with the bass already present, thus you end up with a very treble sound. That's something to be aware of. Not sure how to rectify it.

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#2049184 - 03/16/13 02:48 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
i am using some KRK rockit 8's and some Yamaha HS 50M monitors- 4 monitors total- the rockit 8's just above the head on the right/left and 50M's below the keyboard on the floor, right and left towards the front at a slight incline towards the player. I still wanted more bass so i bought the Yamaha YST-SW012 8-Inch Subwoofer for $89 at amazon. it works just fine. just enough additional bass to round out the sound of Ivory 2. I don't think you have to go crazy and spend a fortune on subwoofers to accomplish what you are looking for with your DP. its really just something incremental. and its very easy to go too far and get too bassy. you don't need much.
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#2049208 - 03/16/13 04:15 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1841
Loc: Pennsylvania
bfb: I am mildly interested in the YST-SW012 Subwoofer you mentioned.

My question would be ....

I already have my Left and Right Lineouts from my DP going to my Left and Right monitors.

How does the Subwoofer attach to this ?
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2049217 - 03/16/13 04:31 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: Fscotte]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2344
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
Adding a sub to my Yamaha CLP340 kills the bass because it is in phase with the bass already present, thus you end up with a very treble sound. That's something to be aware of. Not sure how to rectify it.

Bit puzzled by this as I would have thought the phases would add, but no matter as many subs have a 'phase shift' switch or option - does yours?

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#2049256 - 03/16/13 05:57 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: piRround]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Similar configuration: EMU0404USB AI into EMUPS12 "precision" SUB (400€) and it goes from its outs to the pair of Genelec 8020B monitors (600€).

But the sub's amp deteriorates sound quality a little, even in the switchable pass-through mode, so I prefer more often than not to connect the Genelecs direct to the audio interface and sacrifice the bass....

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#2049290 - 03/16/13 07:09 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: Fscotte]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
Adding a sub to my Yamaha CLP340 kills the bass because it is in phase with the bass already present, thus you end up with a very treble sound. That's something to be aware of. Not sure how to rectify it.


I think you mean that it kills the bass because it is in out of phase with the bass already present, ... .
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#2049338 - 03/16/13 08:43 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: dmd]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: dmd
bfb: I am mildly interested in the YST-SW012 Subwoofer you mentioned.

My question would be ....

I already have my Left and Right Lineouts from my DP going to my Left and Right monitors.

How does the Subwoofer attach to this ?


good question- i'm not sure what you'd do if you only had one set of lineouts. can you mono into a mixer and run the subwoofer off the other? Not sure how that would sound. beyond my expertise....
Me.. I'm midi'ing in my Vpiano to a MAudio Firewire 410 audio interface which in turns connects by firewire cable to my PC for running Ivory II, and the FW410 has 4 sets of lineouts and a spdif connection. the subwoofer has one mono connection for a 1/4 inch jack, so i'm using a radio shack cable with a 1/4 jack on one end and a 1/8 inch (technically a 3.5mm TRS) plug on the other that goes into the spdif connection.

so if i were using the V-Pianos internal sounds going directly out to my monitors- i guess i'd have to give up one set of monitors to run the subwoofer with a mono lineout on the second set of lineouts (the vpiano has 2 sets of l/r lineouts.

others may have a better idea....
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#2049464 - 03/17/13 02:51 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: Fscotte]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1266
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Fscotte
Adding a sub to my Yamaha CLP340 kills the bass because it is in phase with the bass already present, thus you end up with a very treble sound. That's something to be aware of. Not sure how to rectify it.


First, the problem isn't that the two are "in phase" -- it's that they're _out of phase_.

Several possible cures:

1. Reverse the "ground" and "hot" wires to the subwoofer. That is, wire the CPL340's "hot" wire to the subwoofer "ground", and the CPL340's "ground" wire to the subwoofer "hot".

2. Go to a music store, and say you want a 1-to-1 isolation transformer that has a "phase reversal" switch. That's _not_ the same as a "DI box". And it must be a _good_ isolation transformer, because you'll be feeding low frequencies through it.

3. Reverse the wires that feed the actual subwoofer driver. That may be the quickest, simplest solution.

. Charles

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#2049490 - 03/17/13 04:54 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
Thanks for the many replies.
I guess the conclusion is that it's not that important to have a sub that matches semi expensive speakers.
Regarding connection (talking about active studio monitors and sub) I'm pretty sure you plug right and left cables directly into the sub and then use another set of cables from the sub in to your monitors.
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#2049507 - 03/17/13 06:05 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...I guess the conclusion is that it's not that important to have a sub that matches semi expensive speakers..."

Oh, I wouldn't say that. It can add some real authority, and with instruments that use a low bass register (bass guitar, pipe organ), it is like entering another world. No, another dimension.
_________________________
Clef


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#2049524 - 03/17/13 06:59 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: Charles Cohen]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

1. Reverse the "ground" and "hot" wires to the subwoofer. That is, wire the CPL340's "hot" wire to the subwoofer "ground", and the CPL340's "ground" wire to the subwoofer "hot".


Of course, this method will only work if the sub is floating wrt the CLP340. If the two share a common ground (via the mains power ground), and if the output of the CLP340 is referenced to that ground, the signal will be shorted to ground and there will be no sound at all. Won't cause any damage though and is safe to try.

Yes - +1 on the speaker connection reversal idea....

Greg.

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#2049597 - 03/17/13 10:45 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Fscotte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 35
I'll try to do some switching and see what happens.

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#2049788 - 03/17/13 04:53 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: sullivang]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1266
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

1. Reverse the "ground" and "hot" wires to the subwoofer. That is, wire the CPL340's "hot" wire to the subwoofer "ground", and the CPL340's "ground" wire to the subwoofer "hot".


Of course, this method will only work if the sub is floating wrt the CLP340. If the two share a common ground (via the mains power ground), and if the output of the CLP340 is referenced to that ground, the signal will be shorted to ground and there will be no sound at all. Won't cause any damage though and is safe to try.

Yes - +1 on the speaker connection reversal idea....

Greg.


Duh -- I should have thought about that -- "ground" is "ground", even if it's connected to the "tip" of a TR plug!

. charles

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#2074255 - 04/30/13 02:42 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
So, I finally decided to get the matching Adam 7' sub to my 5' speakers and my conclusion is that it doesn't work very well for playing piano. The sub acts too 'distinct'. It's like the low notes are there for a very short period of time but then fades away way too quickly. I'm returning the speaker and now considering getting a sub with a 10 inch woofer instead.
I'm thinking that a larger woofer might add that continuing 'rumble' I'm looking for in the lows. Any thoughts?
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#2074265 - 04/30/13 02:56 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Virginia, USA
The 10inch sub on my Roland CM-220 works great for me.
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A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#2075900 - 05/02/13 01:15 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Walt Brooks Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 16
Loc: New England
When I added a KRK 10" sub to my Yamaha 5" studio monitors I noticed a substantial improvement in the sound. In addition to better lows, I believe the sub also enables cleaner mid-range and highs via the bypass to the monitors (but I'll defer to the engineers on this forum). I'm using this speaker set-up for my Ivory II pianos (German Steinway).

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#2076444 - 05/03/13 05:57 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
Thanks guys. Seems like it takes a 10' to get the best results. That Roland system looks great, Kbeaumont. Does it work for mixing too?
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#2076512 - 05/03/13 09:12 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Virginia, USA
Yes, not as well as a pair of quality studio monitors, but definitely better than headphones or multi-media speakers. It has an excellent balanced sound without being boomy in the low end. These really aren't bad at all, and the CM-220 will rattle your windows at full volume. I keep mine at about 1/3 volume at home. What I didn't like about using Rokit monitors for my MOX 8 was it made the middle range of the piano and an octave above sound synthetic it just didn't connect with me. When I went to the CM-220 I connected much better to the piano sound.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#2076561 - 05/03/13 10:34 AM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 153
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
Interesting... I returned my Rokits too and got Adams instead. I wish I'd seen that Roland set.
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#2076802 - 05/03/13 06:17 PM Re: Adding a subwoofer [Re: thomsurf]
Amateur Jerry Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 65
Loc: Mokena, Illinois
Friends,

Interesting comments. I use DefTech SM-45's through a small amp from my Kawai CA-63. Even with no sub I get a lot of bass. One aspect that drew me to the DefTech's was their frequency response goes down to 35 hz (vice most bookshelf speakers only going down to 50-70hz). That's aonly five keys to Ao and I do not notice any rolloff going to Ao.

My set up is very simple. I use either headphone out or line out to the amp and then to the speakers. I don't need to go more than 2 or maybe 2.1 on the slider for plenty of sound. As a matter of fact, when I use the headphone out, I keep keep the headphone selection to soft and it reduces the boomy bass to a more natural sound.

One of the best investments you can make aside from the speakers is go to Radio Shack or BB and buy an SPL meter. I place the SPL meter on the music rack adjusted the volume where I get about 73db for pp to about 95db for ff. Most acoustic pianos will give you about 67-103db in your home, digitals don't have the dynamic range as acoustics. The reason I bring this up is before I started measuring I was constantly adjusting the volume a notch or two to compensate for a boomy sound vs a not enough sound. With the volume calibrated as such I found I was really attacking the keys too hard and getting a more metallic sound. By easing off the attack the piano sounded much more realistic.

The second change I made is if you have your speakers sitting on the piano, push them back as far as they can go, or if you can put them behind the piano that's even better. Also I keep the right channel lined up with no toe in but I bring in the left channel a bit and toe it in about 20 degrees. The reason I do this is an AP resonates sound from behind the music rack not in front (like conventional DP's -more realism). By adjusting the left channel (where most of the bass will resonate)the AP is not symetrical, the lid opens left to right so the sound really resonates from left to right behind the music rack. Also by bringing in the left channel some it reduces the hole in the middle voices.

The Kawai CA-63 does not have the soundboard resonator like the 93. With these adjustments and playing mf or louder, I get a more stringlike sound and some vibration in the keys and pedals very similiar to an AP.

When the income tax check comes in I am going to purchase an audiophile amp to tweak the sound a little better. You don't need more than about 50w /channel, that is plenty for piano.
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Czar

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