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When it comes to pianos, a good sound is in the ear of the beholder and a good touch is in the hand of the player. Taste and preference supersedes all else.
This would result in a free-for-all! It's the skilled piano technician who is the guardian of standards in piano tone and touch. It is his or her job to educate his or her ear to what is correct and desirable and then learn to re-create those standards on pianos he or she works on. Learning to tune is easy compared to learning what a piano should sound like and then being able to re-create that standard on the instrument at hand.
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Eric - I was speaking from the viewpoint of the pianist, not from the tech/rebuilder.
After all, it is the buyer whose preference is the most important. Without the pianst, there would be no need to build the piano.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
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Sociopathy is a category of illness. It is define by the lack of normal emotions.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
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Eric is right on,
This is why great tone-regulators have music in their background. Some formally trained some self-taught.
Marty, do you teach your students about tone color when playing? If you do you ARE establishing standards to piano tone and touch.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
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Marty,
In the case of your "first chicken or first egg" post-the piano came first! (Snare drum, rim shot! Kapow!!)
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
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Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.
You misunderstood me - read my post again: I wasn't questioning your pianos. Presumably your understanding of tone or "sound ideal" is similar to what has prevailed in the Western world for long time. In fact, a description by yourself would be nice to have. Norbert
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Mr. McMorrow,
In my teaching, I am not establishing "standards to piano tone." I am teaching a student the methods of advanced technique to allow the student to draw from the color pallete available within an instrument. But first, the instrument must be able to respond in a way that variations of tonal color are available. Unfortunately, many brands of piano are very limited in their response.
That is why trying to 'define and codify' the tone and touch is a futile search. The experience of the player has already defined what is perfect for them. For a builder, or re-builder, to assume the role of arbiter of what is proper, is regressive in approach. It will always be the choice of the player/owner/musician to decide exactly what is best for themselves. To not have the choice, by only producing identical pianos with no variation in response, is the demise of musicianship. When one is so focused on making the mechanics of an instrument, including tonality, so lacking in variation, the concept of musicianship is lost. That would be a catastrophe.
However, all this is moot. Now that I have learned that pianos are hatched, and not built, it becomes futile to contemplate.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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A few months ago while auditioning pianos, I tried a Weber 5' of Del's design. It had a very nice tone, the bass in particular. The particular one I played had a very clunky action, however, so I gave it a pass. Unfortunately there was not another of the same model to try out. I'm sure that one was an anomaly.
Gary
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Norbert,
Come here my pianos. That is the most convincing way to make my point.
You misunderstood me - read my post again: I wasn't questioning your pianos. Presumably your understanding of tone or "sound ideal" is similar to what has prevailed in the Western world for long time. In fact, a description by yourself would be nice to have. Norbert, Comprehension by Mr. McMorrow is a continuing problem. It is the same with expressing himself. Why would he summon all of his pianos around himself? It seems that he is trying to convince his pianos of his own point. Very confusing, indeed. I believe that this very type of summons was used in "Hansel & Gretel."
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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One measure of quality that has not been mentioned on this thread yet is: How well was the piano crafted?
Meaning: How well does a piano keep its initial settings after being delivered and used?
If we have two pianos, and both are used equally often in equivalent environments; and after a few weeks, the first piano still sounds and plays like on its first day, while the other starts having imprecise action, keys that get stuck, pedal action that feels like treading a sponge and is going out of tune, then the quality of the first piano is superior by far. And what the initial settings were is irrelevant.
This observation deserves to be on this thread; because last year at the music fair in Frankfurt/Germany, I played on an Albert Weber. After only a few measures of a Schubert Impromptu, two keys started to hang. Young Chang might as well have put a sign over their stand, saying: "We are not interested in customers. Get lost."
I had read beforehand that Young Chang had been taken over by Hyundai, and suspected that Hyundai wasn't interested in selling pianos. But if a new line of Weber pianos is being introduced, then maybe I was wrong.
Last edited by patH; 03/19/13 10:01 AM. Reason: Spelling
My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
My other Yamaha is an XMAX 300.
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To have any meaningful context to quantitative "data" regarding good piano tone-you first need to define "good" in the terms you are measuring. I have never met a piano purchaser who "measures" piano tone quality with any sort of tool. I have also never heard of any one producing a credible technical definition of good piano tone and touch beyond my own basic efforts to flesh out my theory of Musical Intelligible Sound.
I wish YC and Del great success with their endeavor and Del is always an interesting and experienced voice regarding piano technology. I hope to go play the new YC's soon. I have made no effort to define a grand unifying theory of piano tone or sound. To do so would probably end up being so specifically biased toward the likes and dislikes of the individual formulating the theory as to be useless to anyone else. The tests, and the data Cy was referring to were intended to demonstrate one specific aspect of piano tone performance: the sound envelope produced by the lowest notes of a very short piano. These kinds of tests are useful to demonstrate the cause and effect relationships between otherwise identical pianos in which just one or two things are changed. In this case it was more of a “before and after†comparison. I used them to demonstrate that the sound envelope produced by pianos with the new bridge and soundboard designs contained measurable sound energy at the fundamental pitch of the waveform (27.5 Hz) and at the lowest harmonics while the waveform of a piano of the same length but with the previous, more traditional soundboard and bridge design did not. This information tells me in visual and measurable terms what progress has been made and at least gives hints about what remains possible. With some practice at reading and analyzing these kinds of measurements subsequent evolutionary steps become clear. For this information to be useful it is not necessary to define “good†although it will probably be generally conceded that a sound envelope that contains at least some energy at the intended pitch of the note being played is probably preferable to one that does not. That, at least, was one of my goals. ddf
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)
Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
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Well, let me take the opportunity to say THANKS as I believe you helped design my first Baby Grand!  Many of the explanations here go above my head..but I like what I hear at home.
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Buy, do you like the increadibly bright sound of these cheap pianos? There's a lot of Feurich and other China manufacturers recording on youtube and... Sorry... for me it sounds like playing on glasses, not on piano... This is from YT recordings, and recordings from Hailun website (which are in very high quality) - it just doesn't sound like piano. Yes, I like deep, warm and little heavy european piano sound and this asian-made glass sounding piano object aren't convincing me at all. I appreciate all the knowledge they implement, that they hire experienced piano makers from Europe and US factories, but... You just cannot jump few things... Perhaps, when comparing cheap Kawai/Yamaha to cheap YC/Hailun and their submarks there is a question which one to chose, but... there's something I don't like about them. Maybe, even having eperienced people, to achieve the sound of Steinway, Bosendorfer etc. is not so easy within few years of experience and even more impossible within the final product costs. All I would like to have, would be these china pianos having deep and heavy and soft sound... but most probably unless they will start to cost the 70% of new top-end grands instead of 15% this thing will be never achieved. Unfortunately, Poland is still to poor country and having a used grand for 5k USD is a luxury (unless someone is not professional pianist/teacher who needs grand). Eventually, I am very happy that many people can buy new chep pianos build of good quality. I PERSONALLY just don't like the sound of them and I would never buy Hailun due to it's sound. It's horrible for me - based on their website recordings! Just listen to them - I needed to switch it of, really. Instead I'd buy a good grand... with better sound to my ear. But if you are happy - I'm glad, really. And - we still need to know that the price is made due to something. Labor is one factor, but there are dozens of others. But if the target people are happy so I am happy to. One like blondes, other brunetes
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Have you tried one yourself in person and not just some internet samples? You do realize how many variables come into play..just like someone comparing images taken under different conditions and with differently calibrated monitors.
I am a beginner pianist but I was born in a musical family. Started playing guitar at 7. So I have a well developed ear and I reviewed then worked for a speaker company so I can feel confident in my ability to tell what is good sound and what is not...well, aside from the fact we all dont have the same hearing nor taste.
So back to your comment...my piano is anything but bright and harsh. In fact, it makes my Hamilton Baldwin upright almost sound "glassy" now in comparison. It gives me a range of dynamics I never had with my upright which is an oldie but still goodie.
So, I do like the sound a lot and suggest you give some of these new ones a try in person before making a call on their performance.
Regards
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Buy, do you like the increadibly bright sound of these cheap pianos? There's a lot of Feurich and other China manufacturers recording on youtube and... Sorry... for me it sounds like playing on glasses, not on piano... This is from YT recordings, and recordings from Hailun website (which are in very high quality) - it just doesn't sound like piano. Yes, I like deep, warm and little heavy european piano sound and this asian-made glass sounding piano object aren't convincing me at all. I appreciate all the knowledge they implement, that they hire experienced piano makers from Europe and US factories, but... You just cannot jump few things... Perhaps, when comparing cheap Kawai/Yamaha to cheap YC/Hailun and their submarks there is a question which one to chose, but... there's something I don't like about them. Maybe, even having eperienced people, to achieve the sound of Steinway, Bosendorfer etc. is not so easy within few years of experience and even more impossible within the final product costs. All I would like to have, would be these china pianos having deep and heavy and soft sound... but most probably unless they will start to cost the 70% of new top-end grands instead of 15% this thing will be never achieved. Unfortunately, Poland is still to poor country and having a used grand for 5k USD is a luxury (unless someone is not professional pianist/teacher who needs grand). Eventually, I am very happy that many people can buy new chep pianos build of good quality. I PERSONALLY just don't like the sound of them and I would never buy Hailun due to it's sound. It's horrible for me - based on their website recordings! Just listen to them - I needed to switch it of, really. Instead I'd buy a good grand... with better sound to my ear. But if you are happy - I'm glad, really. And - we still need to know that the price is made due to something. Labor is one factor, but there are dozens of others. But if the target people are happy so I am happy to. One like blondes, other brunetes Oh - you mean like these lovely sounding European pianos with that deep, warm sound you love so much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFDfTGY5W5Qor this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlWynRVre_Mor this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYTVmZ29aZELovely. Just lovely.
Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
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I got nothing else to say to you 
Last edited by shaolin95; 03/20/13 08:49 PM.
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Wise, Shaolin. Something about message boards in general, and certainly not just this one, seems to bring out sarcasm. Is it the safety of knowing the other person is not physically present, that allows normally gracious, friendly people to engage in snark?
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Wise, Shaolin. Something about message boards in general, and certainly not just this one, seems to bring out sarcasm. Is it the safety of knowing the other person is not physically present, that allows normally gracious, friendly people to engage in snark? Indeed amigo but I have been around long enough to detect "those" types and my time is more valuable than that
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Del,
I think my experience working on the concert stage preparing pianos for performers has helped to broaden my sense of what good and bad tone/touch is all about beyond any personal absolutes. I certainly have many happy customers who are very serious musicians, performers, and teachers. Many of these customers trust me implicitly to shape the performance characteristics of their pianos based on their experience with my past work.
I think it is obvious whenever any technical decision is made regarding using a service or design detail that someones taste is involved. The whole endeavor of servicing, designing or building a piano is rooted in esthetic musical and ergonometric considerations.
That is why my "Musically Intelligible Sound" model is needed. I have certainly found it useful in consistently producing fine pianos. My work has shown that the successful tonal archetypes share many significant characteristics and the touch parameters are even somewhat narrower.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
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