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#2049025 - 03/16/13 07:20 AM 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much?
albynism Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 320
Hi, I'm looking at 30 year old Steinway hamburg B in ebony polish and the owner said the price can be negotiated. ($69 k)
What is a reasonable offer, assuming everything is in a good condition? Of course I will get a tech to inspect it first before sealing the deal, I just want to know how much damage it's going to incur on my wallet laugh
Also anything to be aware of when buying Steinway of this era. Ie. Teflon bushing?
Thanks in advance.

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#2049083 - 03/16/13 10:44 AM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
albynism Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 320
Hi Ed, unfortunately I'm in Australia. so I'm only looking at pianos locally at the moment. just out of curiosity you said satin finish so they are NY made right?

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#2049099 - 03/16/13 11:32 AM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2125
Loc: Pennsylvania
This topic is an exercise in futility because selling and wheeling and dealing is against forum rules. That is why I removed Ed's post.
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
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#2049101 - 03/16/13 11:37 AM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8068
Loc: Georgia, USA
Oops, sorry Ken...

You beat me to it... smile

Rick


Edited by Rickster (03/16/13 02:27 PM)
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2049114 - 03/16/13 11:56 AM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
In the US the present price of a Hamburg Steinway B is around 102K according to the PB. The depreciation factor for a 25 year old Steinway is 39% in the PB tables so the figure would less for a 30 year old piano. So, even realizing the PB depreciation table is just an approximation, if the piano was in the US, I'd say the price of 69K seems quite high.

Since you are in Australia, where I gather pianos are much more expensive than the US, you might start by trying to find the price of a new Hamburg Steinway B in your country and working from there. I'd also try comparing the 69K to the price of a completely rebuilt Hamburg B by a top Australian rebuilder.

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#2049127 - 03/16/13 12:12 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
albynism Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 320
Pianoloverus: thanks for the information. Very much appreciated.

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#2049134 - 03/16/13 12:26 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3295
I agree with pianoloverus. In the US, that would be outrageously high, but being "down under" will cost you. You should check out Overs Pianos, in Sydney. Their rebuilds are priced favorably and will knock a 30 year old B out of the water.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
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#2049215 - 03/16/13 04:27 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 256
Why is it that Steinways are so danged expensive? If they would cut their prices by at least just $10K across the board, they'd sell more pianos and have higher-profits to make up for lower prices. I get that there are people to be paid here and they aren't just underpaid Chinese kids who work for 5ยข a day, but no sane person will cough up $75K for a 7 foot grand in plain ol' black. That's more than most people make in a year. You can get 7 footers from similar-quality brands for less than 2/3 of that price.

Am I just cheap, or am I undervaluing the magic of Steinways?


Edited by SBP (03/16/13 04:29 PM)
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

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#2049230 - 03/16/13 05:00 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: SBP]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6052
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: SBP
Why is it that Steinways are so danged expensive?
Am I just cheap, . . . ?

Bosendorfer 170 - $103,669
Steingraeber & Sohne A170 - $93,382
Bluthner 10 - $89,442
Hamburg Steinway M - $78,300
Grotrian Chambre - $73,603
Steinway & Sons M - $65,700
Mason & Hamlin A - $65,560

Actually, it could be considered a bargain, along with M&H.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049240 - 03/16/13 05:21 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: SBP
Why is it that Steinways are so danged expensive?
Am I just cheap, . . . ?

Bosendorfer 170 - $103,669
Steingraeber & Sohne A170 - $93,382
Bluthner 10 - $89,442
Hamburg Steinway M - $78,300
Grotrian Chambre - $73,603
Steinway & Sons M - $65,700
Mason & Hamlin A - $65,560

Actually, it could be considered a bargain, along with M&H.
Quoting the SMP(or MSRP...not sure which you used, if either) is misleading because Steinway, at least from NY, is generally discounted far less from those figures than other makers.

For example, for a Mason A one should really look at the SMP of 50K and multiply that by 70-80% to get the selling price closer 35K general range. A more reasonable estimate of the selling price for a Grotrian Chambre would be 65K(the SMP)multiplied by 70-80% which is much less than 73K. The selling price for a Steinway M would be much closer to the SMP of 60K because of the small discount usually given.

There are some makes whose actual selling prices are equal or even greater than NY Steinway for similarly sized pianos. Some of those might be Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Steingraeber, and a few others.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/16/13 05:45 PM)

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#2049246 - 03/16/13 05:32 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6052
Loc: Rochester MN
It is a popular misconception that Steinways are never discounted by the dealer.

All of the prices listed are the published (Fine), MSRP listings, for polished ebony in the 5'8" range. Nothing is misleading. It is nothing but a comparative range of prices for pianos considered to be some of the finest available. All of these instruments are not "bargain brands" and Steinway is not overpriced.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049249 - 03/16/13 05:42 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
I didn't say that Steinway is never discounted, but that the discounts tend to be much smaller...enough so that just comparing the SMP is not useful. I believe this is still the case.

Using the MSRP as opposed to the SMP as a basis for comparison is not really relevant as has been explained by Fine for at least the last 20 years.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/16/13 05:44 PM)

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#2049251 - 03/16/13 05:44 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6052
Loc: Rochester MN
SBP - What is really in question is your use of "similar-quality grands" as your basis. You would need to define exactly what you mean. For some, this may be true. For others, not so much.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049254 - 03/16/13 05:53 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: pianoloverus]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6052
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
There are some makes whose actual selling prices are equal or even greater than NY Steinway for similarly sized pianos. Some of those might be Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Steingraeber, and a few others.

Yep - And that was my point. I left out Fazioli because they don't produce a piano in that size. If you want to include the Fazioli F183, it would be near the Bosendorfer range.

(You do seem to like to edit your posts.)


Edited by Minnesota Marty (03/16/13 05:56 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049257 - 03/16/13 05:59 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 256
Baldwin US SF10E-$52K
Bechstein A190-$61K
Estonia L225-$65K
Hailun HG128-$40K
Irmler F230E-$52K
Kawai RX-6BLK-$48K
Shig. Kawai SK5-$62K
Knabe WKG707-$40K
Mason & Hamlin BB-$65K
Schimmel C208-$52K
Seiler 208-$69K
Steinberg AC212-$46K
Walter W190-$50K
Al. Weber AW228-$50K (designed by Del Fandrich)
Yamaha C6-$50K

Steinway B Satin Ebony, US-$85K

While not all of these are "Steinway-Quality", they're still extremely fine, high quality pianos, all of them comparable in size to the Steinway B, but at least $16K cheaper.


Edited by SBP (03/16/13 06:00 PM)
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

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#2049259 - 03/16/13 06:10 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
There are some makes whose actual selling prices are equal or even greater than NY Steinway for similarly sized pianos. Some of those might be Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Steingraeber, and a few others.

Yep - And that was my point. I left out Fazioli because they don't produce a piano in that size. If you want to include the Fazioli F183, it would be near the Bosendorfer range.

(You do seem to like to edit your posts.)
My point was many of the pianos you mentioned sell for much less than the Steinway M. Even the ones that in your listing look like they cost more than the M. Also, that your comparison using the MSRP is invalid for the two reasons I mentioned (one should use SMP and Steinway discounts are generally far less than other makes).

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#2049260 - 03/16/13 06:12 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: SBP]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6052
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: SBP
While not all of these are "Steinway-Quality", they're still extremely fine, high quality pianos, all of them comparable in size to the Steinway B, but at least $16K cheaper.


I would call your list 'fine' and not "extremely fine." That is why Steinway is more expensive, as are the others on my list.

I can assure you that people who cough up $75K for a 7' piano are far from insane.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049261 - 03/16/13 06:19 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: pianoloverus]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6052
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
My point was many of the pianos you mentioned sell for much less than the Steinway M.

Prove it! - Let's see actual sales prices with documentation. I listed a published source, you are only offering speculation.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2049262 - 03/16/13 06:25 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
My point was many of the pianos you mentioned sell for much less than the Steinway M.

Prove it! - Let's see actual sales prices with documentation. I listed a published source, you are only offering speculation.
You need to read the PB about pricing although I'd assume that is your "published source". Then if you still think Fine's understanding of piano pricing has been wrong for the last 20+ years you can write him a note.

I know for a fact what I said applies to Mason Hamlin since I bought two of them. The actual selling price for a Mason A is presently closer to 20K+ less than a Steinway M. The MSRP you gave for the Mason A has nothing to do with the selling price. Listing the Steinway M and Mason A as you did by just using MSRP makes no sense for actual comparison of selling prices.

You seem to be overly concerned about my use of "many". Perhaps if I change it to "some" sell for much less much than the Steinway M and some that seem to sell for much more according to your chart actually sell for about the same as a Steinway M you will be satisfied.

The point remains that for comparison purposes your chart was misleading/inappropriate in the extreme because you should be concerned with SMP and the actual typical discounts from SMP.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/17/13 07:15 PM)

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#2049276 - 03/16/13 06:44 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 256
Well, to pull a Mitch McConnell and tear apart my own derail, prices often vary from dealer to dealer, depending on discounts, how long it's been sitting there, etc. I've seen $52K Baldwin grands with ConcertMaster systems marked down to $25K because it had sat on the floor for so long. So, I'd say let's not get into price disputes, and get back on topic.

$69K for a Hamburg B from '83 is probably a great deal. IIRC, pre-'86 Steinways have ivory keys, and it's probably in fine condition. However, since it might be getting up there in the years, I'd suggest that you have a tech look at it.


Edited by SBP (03/16/13 06:44 PM)
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

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#2049418 - 03/16/13 11:29 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: SBP]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1459
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have never seen a plain black case Hamburg or NY used B even with ivory key-tops sell for $69K. I would love to get that price from mine.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2049793 - 03/17/13 04:59 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: albynism]
TomazP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 100
Loc: Ucluelet, BC Canada
Eight years ago my 1967 Hamburg B cost me just under $38,000.00 CAD. I have spent $6000.00 CAD in regulation, voicing and tuning over those last eight years and the instrument is glorious. FYI, a Hamburg B in 1967 cost $4,775.00 US at the factory.

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#2049858 - 03/17/13 06:51 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 256
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have never seen a plain black case Hamburg or NY used B even with ivory key-tops sell for $69K. I would love to get that price from mine.

Wouldn't we all love to get $69K for our pianos?
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

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#2049928 - 03/17/13 08:57 PM Re: 1983 Steinway hamburg B - how much? [Re: TomazP]
BerndAB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 532
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: TomazP
FYI, a Hamburg B in 1967 cost $4,775.00 US at the factory.


;-)

It was when the USD against the once most respected DM (Deutschmark) hat a conversion rate of 1 USD : 6 DM...

My New York D had cost 1.800 USD at the factory.

(It was when an experienced tuner-regulator earned 10-12 USD - per week..)
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Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain

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