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I also think you should be reading easier material.
Yeah, I'm starting to think part of where I went wrong was material. I was working through semi-instructional sight reading books which actually don't have much material at a certain level as they introduce several new things to do in each book. Finding out about "big note" and "5-finger" books will probably help me out quite a bit. I'll check out Bookdepository as well.
I just meant seeing the written note and knowing where it is on the piano (as opposed to relative note placement, as in reading by interval.
Do you find that this ^ (as opposed to intervals) works even with difficult pieces at tempo? And do you have any tips for remembering which keys each of your fingers are on after a few position changes? This always messes me up.
Yes, it does work with difficult pieces at tempo. Remembering which keys your fingers are on? I don't actually remember, I go by feel, by peripheral vision, by reading the notes. I'm a bit puzzled by the question actually, so perhaps I haven't quite understood what you're getting at. (Or you me, for that matter). As for "position changes", I don't really think that way at all. And if you're thinking 5-finger positions, I'd get out of that thinking as soon as you can and it will help your reading.
Anyway, I think the advice a few people have given you (easier material, and lots of it) is the way to go. Good luck.
I was working through semi-instructional sight reading books which actually don't have much material at a certain level as they introduce several new things to do in each book.
Yep, I found this out the hard way, too. I went through 6 out of 8 books before working out I really wasn't going to get up to scratch by reading 40 pages of material at each level. You need hundreds of pages before you can really begin to understand each level. And I'm assuming the higher level you get, the more material you need. Thankfully, difficult material is in abundance (hello, classical collections!). It's just getting there that's the hard part. And by hard I mean slow.
Brush up on music theory. Be able to instantly tell the type of triad or seventh chord you're playing and spot the nonharmonic tones. Know the key signatures and all the major/minor scales really well. Understand harmonic relationships (especially V-I) on the fly. Study some common chord progressions in tonal music.
When you get really really good at theory, you can almost anticipate what comes next in the music.
What you are trying to do is build a certain kind of physical response to what you see on the page, and it's really just about rapid recognition of what you see, and translation into physical motion, without much thinking.
This sounds good, but could you explain how to practice for this? You mention becoming fluent each step of the way, what are these steps? In other words, how do you get to the point to where you respond without much thought. I know that you must practice, but what am I to be practicing? I understand that the best way to sight read might not be one of the common methods, but I don't see how it could involve no method at all.
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There are no shortcuts.
I'm not looking for shortcuts as far as I can tell. I just don't feel that my practice time has been used in an effective way and I would like to improve it. Just as someone serious about running would not want to waste time by continually practicing with bad form. I'm willing to put in the time, I just want to know how to better direct my efforts.
It looks like many good people have chimed in and pretty much made it unnecessary for me to respond about how to go about improving. I'd just add that, depending on your location, libraries can be a great source of sight reading material, so you don't have to spend money on stuff you aren't going to be using for that long.
I'll say I'm very good at sight reading. The way it worked for me is to put more than 30 minutes. I used (still sometimes do) to spend hours on end just sight reading. I would take scores everywhere I went and I would sight read them mentally. I think it's about persistence and constant practice until it fully sinks in and it becomes second nature. Maybe you don't have more than a half hour, so in that case I really recommend you take scores around wherever you go and try to mentally sight read them (or out loud is great, too.). Keep at it and don't give up. Also, start small. Sight read easy children's pieces until it becomes natural and easy. Then move on to harder stuff.
Good luck!
Of all the comments on this thread, this one makes the most sense. I call the ability to sight read a knack, but the reality is, it is a skill that is learned by repetition, the same way you learned to talk, and you learned to read. You acomplished both these skills without any knowledge of the underlying theory or structure of the words. You don't hear nouns and verbs or say to yourself, as you are reading, oops, there's a noun coming up, better get ready for it. If you want to be able (not learn) to sight read, then sight read everything in sight - get your iPad out, go on- line, and download as many of the hundreds of thousands of piano pieces available free, in the public domain, as you want from many sites around the world. If you can write to PW and ask ithe question about sight reading, you will be able to sight read music. Don't think about it, just do it.
I'll say I'm very good at sight reading. The way it worked for me is to put more than 30 minutes. I used (still sometimes do) to spend hours on end just sight reading. I would take scores everywhere I went and I would sight read them mentally. I think it's about persistence and constant practice until it fully sinks in and it becomes second nature. Maybe you don't have more than a half hour, so in that case I really recommend you take scores around wherever you go and try to mentally sight read them (or out loud is great, too.). Keep at it and don't give up. Also, start small. Sight read easy children's pieces until it becomes natural and easy. Then move on to harder stuff.
Good luck!
Of all the comments on this thread, this one makes the most sense. I call the ability to sight read a knack, but the reality is, it is a skill that is learned by repetition, the same way you learned to talk, and you learned to read. You acomplished both these skills without any knowledge of the underlying theory or structure of the words. You don't hear nouns and verbs or say to yourself, as you are reading, oops, there's a noun coming up, better get ready for it. If you want to be able (not learn) to sight read, then sight read everything in sight - get your iPad out, go on- line, and download as many of the hundreds of thousands of piano pieces available free, in the public domain, as you want from many sites around the world. If you can write to PW and ask ithe question about sight reading, you will be able to sight read music. Don't think about it, just do it.
Definitely! Read as much music as you can. Eventually you'll begin to recognize patterns and chords in an instant. Sometimes it also takes a bit of sacrifice. If you know you won't have much time all day... Get up an hour before your usual wake up time and practice!
Watch this video. She hits the nail on the head about sight reading.
I love that video! It speaks to me anew each time I see it.
I put together the following post over in the ABF a while back, and hopefully it might contain some helpful suggestions of easy sight reading "fodder" for the OP (or others) to try. Easy Sight Reading Fodder
Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
The mention of 'random keys' concerns me. Learning is about routine, practising a set routine over and over.
Except we're talking about sight-reading!<g> And for that, only the "first time through" is pure sight-reading. You never get a chance to experience that again.
"bennevis" has expressed my feelings better than I could. Somehow, you need to develop a "map" from the notes on the page, to the notes (and finger movements) on the piano.
So, along with others, I'd say:
. . . Sight-read pieces that are _easier_ than what you . . . can learn to play.
If that means "big note" books, so be it. Maybe hymn books -- just the melody line? Or just the bass line? Folk-song books? The Bach 2-part inventions (in keys you know) -- just one part? Opera vocal scores (some public domain, many in libraries) -- just the vocal parts?
If you haven't learned to play a scale and chords in (say) E major, it'll be really tough to sight-read something in that key. The mental connections you need (note-on-page to finger-on-key), haven't been developed yet.
Sight-reading is a "real-time" skill, like tennis, or driving a car. You can't just master it intellectually, by following one method or another. It has to happen faster than you can _think_ the process. I understand that you want to understand what to do to improve. But the best advice might be:
. . . Find something simple that you _can_ sight-read, and go from there.
I sympathize with your frustration, and wish I had a simple fix.
. charles
PS -- Many years ago, I had a copy of "Guided Sight-Reading", by Leonard Deutsch. It's still in print, and the Kindle edition (which I think you can read on any computer) is around $9. It may be too advanced, but might have useful hints.
My sight-reading background: 30 minutes every day for almost a year, still very terrible at it. Working with simple pieces for two hands with position changes and random keys, and I often struggle at 30 bpm.
you say: "30 minutes every day for almost a year, still very terrible at it"
good morning, good afternoon, good evening,
If it is note recognition, or sight reading, it is simple: Sit at the piano looking at any scale. As you read and play the scale up or down, say the notes as you play them. Do the treble clef and the bass clef.
Remember what it said in the first piano book:
First, play and say the letter names of the notes. Slow and even counting is essential. Endeavour to maintain strict time in all exercises. Correct finger as shown must be used to ensure smooth playing. Begin these exercises slowly and gradually increase speed. DON'T memorize the sound, but READ every note and play it as written with its correct time value.
"I have tried both the "intervallic" and "note recognition methods" of sight reading, but have encountered some major problems with both and so I can't figure out which one to use. I know that some advocate a mixture of both, but I can't seem to combine the two. The reason is, if I get into a part in which I am using only intervals, I cannot go back to note recognition because even though I can start reading the notes again for pitch at any time, I don't know which keys are under which fingers anymore. I'll also address the fact that it wouldn't really make sense to try to use both methods simultaneouly for every note because that would defeat the purpose of intervallic reading which is supposed to facilitate faster speed than note recognition would allow (I'm not at a level at which I would know if that's true, but that is always the reasoning I see for intervallic reading).
So now I'll explain the issues I'm running into.
Intervallic: Because of its relative nature, when you play one wrong note, all subsequent notes thrown off. First of all, how would you notice when the notes get thrown off? Second, how would you correct it once you notice it? To clarify, (assuming some position changes as well) I would at that point have no idea where my hand is (i.e. what notes it's covering). I could either look down or feel the black keys, but both would take enough time to interrupt the rhythm considerably.
Note Recognition: I am somewhat concerned about the fact that for more complex pieces this method would not work anymore (as opposed to intervallic reading), but I don't know if this is true because I'm not at that level right now. Still, thoughts on this would be appreciated. In any case, I have experienced a problem with this method already. If I were to play with hands in a fixed position, I wouldn't really have any issues with this so far. However, in playing pieces pieces that require shifting, I cannot keep track of the new keys that my fingers are covering, especially after a few shifts.
This applies to both methods: How do you account for accidentals when changing positions? I'm very familiar with playing scales, but it doesn't really help in this regard because scales place the hand in very specific points within the key that often are not helpful for songs (e.g. when the most appropriate fingering involves the thumb on something like the 2nd or 6th degree, which doesn't happen in scale fingering (most scales anyway))
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to be very specific. Also, I'm not saying that these are faults with the methods, I'm just saying that these are issues I'm having with them. I don't believe both can be used well for the reasons stated above (please enlighten me if my arguments were not valid), and would just like to use one. I'm hoping someone can provide effective solutions to the problems I'm having with one of the methods so I can go forward with that one. For those who read and respond, I really appreciate your time.
Thanks."
what you post is very complex.
When you sit at the piano and look a piece of music note by note, you either know what the note is or you do not. Next you must know on what keys of the piano your fingers are on. It is that simple. You have to say and play the notes, note by note when you are learning a piece and gradually build up speed over many days and weeks or months. From your description I get the impression you are trying to go way, way, way way, to fast to be able to read and say the notes on the sheet of music Of course when you switch keys or hand position you have to know what has happened, what fingers are on what the piano keys are. What would be helpful is not what you can't do or wasn't work, but take a moment and tell us what you do so we can understand you. So you would say: I sit at the piano and look at mary had a litlle lamb music. I recognize the first note and play that note on the piano. The second note I don't know what it is. It is on the middle line and I am lost, and we would tell you it is a B.
... What you are trying to do is build a certain kind of physical response to what you see on the page, and it's really just about rapid recognition of what you see, and translation into physical motion, without much thinking. In other words, you need to be able to process the visual information in such a way that most of the process is automatic - you just know. It's a little like learning how to read verbal language - you first have to start out by becoming quite fluent in sounding out letters and syllables. Then whole words, then phrases, then sentences, and on to paragraphs. The only way to get there is by becoming fluent each step of the way.
Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted By: Kerry Jacobs Could you elaborate on how to use "absolute note placement"? It sounds interesting, but I don't quite understand how to apply it. (currawong) I just meant seeing the written note and knowing where it is on the piano (as opposed to relative note placement, as in reading by interval).
Originally Posted by Maechre
the trick is to see the note, know where it is and play it. That's how sight-reading becomes "automatic".
Kerry and Michael99, I'd really urge you to stop trying to get your present methods of note recognition to work and focus your thinking and practical efforts instead towards acquiring the sort of ability that wr, currawong and Maechre are describing. Partly because it's what you need to achieve - being able to land your fingers on key-targets entirely without reference to any other position on the keyboard is a fundamental prerequisite for achieving fluent performance in sight-reading; partly because your current, stated concerns and frettings are diverting your attention ever further away from acquiring that ability, and worse, from the actual purpose of recognizing notes - which is to recognize what they are intended to symbolize and mean, i.e., sounds, and the particular piano-keys needed to produce them; and partly because the methods you're struggling with simply aren't working - if they had worked for you, you would long ago have derived the limited benefit they offer and by now outgrown them. I'm saying this in the light of 40 years of specializing in coaching sight-reading and musicianship skills, during which time by far the commonest difficulty I've had to deal with is the inappropriate mindset that these seemingly straightforward but beside-the-point recognition techniques appear to foster.
If either of you would be interested in my help, please send me a PM and I'll be happy to send back details of the procedure I teach and use myself for quickly acquiring ability to recognize printed notes in terms of sound and key-target location. It's equally effective for all levels of reading ability, and given the difficulties and frustrations you've run up against to date,I think you'll be quite surprised at how quickly and straightforwardly note-recognition issues can be resolved, on a basis of little more than understanding what it is in actuality one is aiming to recognize on seeing a note.
Hoping to hear from you!
Richard
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein
