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#2050878 - 03/19/13 02:27 PM Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Comments/criticism welcome! One more Impromptu to go smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j8KGUFx3rw
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#2050902 - 03/19/13 03:01 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianovirus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Beautiful!

As I listened through it, I only had one 'criticism,' but what I found really interesting about it was that the thing I was going to criticize stopped happening in the recap smile which I thought was just about perfect (y'know, to the extent anything can be perfect).

Through the first part of the piece, I thought you were giving the accompaniment a little too much of a life of its own, as though you were thinking in terms of it more than you should rather than thinking more of the melody and letting the accompaniment just 'happen.' It was just a subtle thing. It's not like you were playing it too loud, but that sometimes it kept the melody from flowing as it should because (it seemed) you were giving too much attention to the accompaniment. Actually its basis may have been something else, like maybe trying to do a kind of rubato, since it tended to happen at melodic peaks; you would pause a bit after the 6-note accompaniment figure and before the next melody note. Whatever it was, I thought it interrupted the flow and made it seem like you weren't thinking enough in terms of the melody -- and as I said, the issue disappeared for the recap. Maybe you were sort of "trying too hard" at the beginning, but then relaxed more and let the music happen? I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this, especially what you think was going on and whether the difference in the recap was conscious. To the extent that it may have been intentional, I'd say that if anything it would be better to do it the other way around: play it more straight initially, then maybe futz more with it in the recap, but really I wouldn't futz like that anywhere. grin

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#2050966 - 03/19/13 04:21 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianovirus]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19642
Loc: New York City
I felt there was some difficulty with the RH non melody notes. Sometimes uneven rhythmically or uneven dynamically(with some notes sticking out as too loud or too soft). In general, I think the RH melody could be shaped better. I'm not saying that any of the above is at all easy to do.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/19/13 04:43 PM)

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#2051923 - 03/21/13 12:35 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: Mark_C]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Thanks a lot for listening and commenting, Mark and PV. Btw (I saw there was a discussion on this in the Pianist Corner), as far as your feedback goes, to me it's always constructive and helpful (so far... laugh )

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this, especially what you think was going on and whether the difference in the recap was conscious.


Both of you address (I think) the same issue, and in this case PV nails it down exactly: the RH accompaniment is often slightly uneven rhythmically and also dynamically, and it's also a bit too obtrusive. So, Mark, none of this is intentional of course! smile Maybe in the recap I was a bit more relaxed and the issue was less pronounced than at the beginning.

Then, as PV also mentions, the RH should sing freely, not influenced by the accompaniment. The accompaniment has just to "fit in" evenly, also when the melody needs rubato.

So, all of this doesn't come naturally to me (yet) and requires more work.
In this Zimerman video, we can hear and see a perfect (IMO) balance of the accompaniment with melody and bass...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkqDEh-fXVI
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#2052086 - 03/21/13 06:05 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianovirus]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19642
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianovirus
In this Zimerman video, we can hear and see a perfect (IMO) balance of the accompaniment with melody and bass...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkqDEh-fXVI
That is my favorite performance of this piece. I would have mentioned that performance but there was so much criticism(not valid IMO)of doing this on a recent thread that I decided not to.

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#2052088 - 03/21/13 06:16 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianoloverus]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
That is my favorite performance of this piece. I would have mentioned that performance but there was so much criticism(not valid IMO)of doing this on a recent thread that I decided not to.


Yes I read also this part of the discussion. Thanks for being so considerate.

In my opinion, if a video or recording like this is shared to underline a specific point of discussion (e.g. here, the evenness and unobtrusiveness of accompaniment) within a constructive and helpful context, it can add to the usefulness of feedback.
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#2052094 - 03/21/13 06:25 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianovirus]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19642
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianovirus
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
That is my favorite performance of this piece. I would have mentioned that performance but there was so much criticism(not valid IMO)of doing this on a recent thread that I decided not to.


Yes I read also this part of the discussion. Thanks for being so considerate.

In my opinion, if a video or recording like this is shared to underline a specific point of discussion (e.g. here, the evenness and unobtrusiveness of accompaniment) within a constructive and helpful context, it can add to the usefulness of feedback.
Nice to hear someone agrees with what I said on the other thread.

I really don't see how anyone but a world class pianist could be insulted if someone implied that someone like Zimerman played the piece better than they did along with some specific comments about what to listen for in terms of the difference. IMO that's kind of like someone telling me Federer has a better forehand than me, and I could learn something from watching him.

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#2052154 - 03/21/13 09:38 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianoloverus]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5377
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: pianovirus
In this Zimerman video, we can hear and see a perfect (IMO) balance of the accompaniment with melody and bass...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkqDEh-fXVI
That is my favorite performance of this piece.

It's certainly a good one. I don't like the rhythmic elements he uses around the 3:00 mark, but it's still a good one. Unfortunately, I can't share the best performance of this piece that I ever heard, because it was live and there was no recording..


EDIT: pianovirus, I apologize, I thought I had already commented on your performance. I did, indeed, enjoy it. Most of my thoughts fell in line with Mark, so I won't plagiarize his post. I will say that I typically prefer the piece a little faster than you played it, but you were consistent, which is always a good thing. smile


Edited by Derulux (03/21/13 09:40 PM)
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#2052156 - 03/21/13 09:45 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: Derulux]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Thanks, Derulux, also for the "Edit"! smile

Which pianist gave that live performance that you liked more than any other?

Btw, I listened to a lot of pianists for these Impromptus (besides Youtube, Spotify is wonderful for this). One I did not have one my bill originally and that I also liked a LOT was Perahia. In general I have grown very fond of his playing; it's never extreme in any sense, but always very well thought through without appearing too "constructed", elegant, lively and charming.
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#2052180 - 03/21/13 11:21 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianovirus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianovirus
....In this Zimerman video....

I almost was gonna kick your butt for posting a video!

(It would have been a joke.) grin

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Nice to hear someone agrees with what I said on the other thread.

I really don't see how anyone but a world class pianist could be insulted if someone implied that someone like Zimerman played the piece better than they did along with some specific comments about what to listen for in terms of the difference....

I continue to be surprised that you don't seem to grasp or recognize some distinctions.

First of all and mainly, there's a huge difference when the player himself posts a recording of someone else's playing. That seems so obvious that I won't elaborate at all. I figure that you just overlooked it for some reason.

And, the problem with people posting videos isn't just that there's an "insult"; it's that doing it is a distraction from the focus on the person who has posted the performance.

Finally, people who post such recordings usually don't give "some specific comments about what to listen for in terms of the difference." When someone does do that, those of us who disagree with you about this thing wouldn't disagree as much, and sometimes not at all, depending on the exact context and how it's done.

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#2052199 - 03/21/13 11:55 PM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19642
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianovirus
....In this Zimerman video....

I almost was gonna kick your butt for posting a video!

(It would have been a joke.) grin

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Nice to hear someone agrees with what I said on the other thread.

I really don't see how anyone but a world class pianist could be insulted if someone implied that someone like Zimerman played the piece better than they did along with some specific comments about what to listen for in terms of the difference....

I continue to be surprised that you don't seem to grasp or recognize some distinctions.

First of all and mainly, there's a huge difference when the player himself posts a recording of someone else's playing. That seems so obvious that I won't elaborate at all. I figure that you just overlooked it for some reason.

And, the problem with people posting videos isn't just that there's an "insult"; it's that doing it is a distraction from the focus on the person who has posted the performance.

Finally, people who post such recordings usually don't give "some specific comments about what to listen for in terms of the difference." When someone does do that, those of us who disagree with you about this thing wouldn't disagree as much, and sometimes not at all, depending on the exact context and how it's done.
I remind you again how incredibly arrogant and obnoxious comments like "you don't seem to grasp..." are. You never for a second consider the possibility that it's you who fail to grasp something. Even more so when preceded the sarcastic "I am continually surprised". How could you be surprised by my comment...it was the same as before?

Even if, for the sake of argument, you were 100% correct your comments would be arrogant because of your tone. Then you assume by writing a lot of nonsense after saying the above that this is some convincing argument to back up your claim.

The OP in this thread agrees with me about the value of posting a video by those commenting on a performance. He said:
"In my opinion, if a video or recording like this is shared to underline a specific point of discussion (e.g. here, the evenness and unobtrusiveness of accompaniment) within a constructive and helpful context, it can add to the usefulness of feedback."

Finally, in the thread about the Chopin nocturne the poster of the professional video made very specific comments about the performance before posting a video. You might disagree with what Louis said about the Nocturne performance but that is a separate issue. Despite your claim otherwise, I think it's obvious that your complaining in that thread had a lot more to do with your endless badgering of Louis from almost the first post he made here. There was barely a single post he made where you didn't go to great lengths to try and discredit him. This continued even after he revealed some personal problems.

None of this is or has ever been about the simplistic and rude approach like "You're terrible and you can listen to this video to see how it's supposed to go" that some people seem to think it is.

I have, on occasion, posted some recording(s) that I think would help someone to improve their playing and have never gotten a single complaint.


Edited by pianoloverus (03/22/13 12:48 AM)

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#2052232 - 03/22/13 01:32 AM Re: Schubert: Impromptu op. 90/3 [Re: pianovirus]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5377
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianovirus
Thanks, Derulux, also for the "Edit"! smile

Which pianist gave that live performance that you liked more than any other?

Btw, I listened to a lot of pianists for these Impromptus (besides Youtube, Spotify is wonderful for this). One I did not have one my bill originally and that I also liked a LOT was Perahia. In general I have grown very fond of his playing; it's never extreme in any sense, but always very well thought through without appearing too "constructed", elegant, lively and charming.

No problem, I felt bad for commenting in the thread without first commenting on your recording.. so I'm glad you saw the edit. smile

The performance I heard was in private, and I was the only "audience member". (As far as I know, we were the only two people in the building.) It happened late at night when I was still at Drexel, on a 9' Steinway grand that had just been fully restored. But it was just over a decade ago, and I can't remember the person's name.
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