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#2050818 - 03/19/13 12:57 PM Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Had reason to have a Tech come out and attempt a minor repair. The "G" above "Middle C" has a twang to it the other keys do not. If earphones, or recordings, it is clear as the others. When using the keyboard, it is there.

So, here is what is inside these beasties. My sincerest apologies to assumptions I made earlier about how these are made inside.




After the back board is removed.



After the top board is removed. Pretty uniform - for sure.



After the panel by your knees is removed.



The transducer is anchored to the back board. The other end of the transducer, is attached to the soundboard.



What I call the HandiPanel.



The board for the Sound Engine.





The Sound Engine Board with and without flash.



The panel by your knees.



The panel above your feet.



The top panel with the midrange speakers - four of them.





Amplifiers

One for the Tweeters, one for the MidRange and one for the Transducer.





Power Supply stuff



An adapter panel. Located beneath the Sound Engine. The black cord veers right to the amps. It is quite long and is coiled up and tied to the bottom.

+++

Hope you folks enjoyed this.

_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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Kawai Superb Stage Piano and Controller

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#2050863 - 03/19/13 02:07 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Very nice Jon, thanks for sharing your pix!

Added to the Nekid Pichures thread.

Wow, that soundboard looks real! So many boards and wiring harnesses, I'm kind of surprised at how "bits and pieces" the CA95 construction is. Looks like lots of plastic in the key action? And the obligatory aluminized chipboard key base even in a home model.

Were you able to find what was causing the buzzing / rattle / whatever? Unwanted resonance can be a bear to track down.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2050979 - 03/19/13 04:51 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Clayman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 300
Loc: Prague, Czech Rep.
Now I feel dirty. :X
_________________________
-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown

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#2051024 - 03/19/13 06:38 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: dewster]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
<<Wow, that soundboard looks real! >>

It is ... The Transducer does wiggle this sucker, and it does make the lower sounds in the room more voluminous.

<<So many boards and wiring harnesses, I'm kind of surprised
at how "bits and pieces" the CA95 construction is.>>

Not really. It is no different than other digital contraptions. Each cable/assembly has a purpose.

<<Looks like lots of plastic in the key action?>>

Each individual key is solid wood and the Keybed Frame and individual Hammers are indeed a plastic. Kawai has used plastics and composites for many years now and these components are absolutely stable.


<<And the obligatory aluminized chipboard key base even in a home model.>>

The entire cabinet is made of a high density chipboard. Very hard, very heavy, I might add. This protects from warpage. The aluminum shields protect the circuits from stray RF things eminating from outside the box.

<<Were you able to find what was causing the buzzing / rattle / whatever? Unwanted resonance can be a bear to track down.>>

Sadly, no. The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And G is still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

Thanks!
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051028 - 03/19/13 06:54 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Here is the Kawai Grand Feel. Note the wood and the plastic.

_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051090 - 03/19/13 10:56 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: McBuster
The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And F and F# are still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

I wonder if the midrange speakers have a natural resonance? Or does it seem to be coming from the soundboard? If you can't tell where it's coming from you might try unplugging one speaker at a time to see if it goes away.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#2051119 - 03/20/13 12:14 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
The Tech did the combinations to see if it could be tracked to a speaker or amplifier. We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it. This is not a serious problem - just an annoyance.

We decided on a couple of things. One, wait a few months and take the pulse then. Two, I will go to a local music store and try 1-2 other 95's to see what they sound like.

Thanks
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051141 - 03/20/13 01:49 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Clayman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 300
Loc: Prague, Czech Rep.
I wonder if I will be able to spot these issues when I do get my CA-95 (seeing as I'm a total beginner). Is this something only a trained ear/finger can spot?
_________________________
-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown

Top
#2051144 - 03/20/13 01:59 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The CA 65 and 95 are wonderful pianos. Play them and do not get too nit picky of key spacing nor whatever until you are familiar with it. In my case, that specific note was a bit sour compared to the others. That was aggravating. Hence, a call was placed.

But, do not search for things that may or may not be there ... Enjoy it ...
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051168 - 03/20/13 03:43 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Paolo70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 85
Loc: Italy
Hi McBuster,

Originally Posted By: McBuster
The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And F and F# are still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

The Tech did the combinations to see if it could be tracked to a speaker or amplifier. We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

Thanks



Is the above mentioned 'shifting of the keyboard' that you tried a mechanical or electronic change? In the latter case, I think the issue cannot be a mechanical one, right?

Ciao,
Paolo
_________________________
Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080

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#2051176 - 03/20/13 04:17 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Clayman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 300
Loc: Prague, Czech Rep.
Originally Posted By: McBuster
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The CA 65 and 95 are wonderful pianos. Play them and do not get too nit picky of key spacing nor whatever until you are familiar with it. In my case, that specific note was a bit sour compared to the others. That was aggravating. Hence, a call was placed.

But, do not search for things that may or may not be there ... Enjoy it ...


Not sure if you were referring to me, but anyway -- I'm not out to search for tiny details, I have heard enough here about how the keyboard of the piano is constructed. I'm just wondering if I will be able to find real but not so obvious problems.
_________________________
-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown

Top
#2051191 - 03/20/13 05:06 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
LarryShone Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 1003
Loc: Darlington, UK
Im surprised to see no toroidal transformers, more expensive than regular square transformers but they produce a cleaner signal with virtually no hum or feed-thru
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

My Soundcloud
Casio Celviano AP-450

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#2051229 - 03/20/13 08:43 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Paolo70]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Paolo70
Hi McBuster,

Originally Posted By: McBuster
The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And F and F# are still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

The Tech did the combinations to see if it could be tracked to a speaker or amplifier. We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

Thanks



Is the above mentioned 'shifting of the keyboard' that you tried a mechanical or electronic change? In the latter case, I think the issue cannot be a mechanical one, right?

Ciao,
Paolo


Electronic using the Virtual Technician. Mechanical would appear to be very difficult to do.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051232 - 03/20/13 08:46 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Clayman]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Clayman
Originally Posted By: McBuster
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The CA 65 and 95 are wonderful pianos. Play them and do not get too nit picky of key spacing nor whatever until you are familiar with it. In my case, that specific note was a bit sour compared to the others. That was aggravating. Hence, a call was placed.

But, do not search for things that may or may not be there ... Enjoy it ...


Not sure if you were referring to me, but anyway -- I'm not out to search for tiny details, I have heard enough here about how the keyboard of the piano is constructed. I'm just wondering if I will be able to find real but not so obvious problems.


Real vs Not So Obvious

Hmmmm ... Imho, these are fantastic instruments and of the CA63 and CA93 and now the CA95 I have owned, this Twang in a couple of keys was all I have ever found. Is it "Serious"? Not at all. A "Show Stopper"? No. On a One to Ten - "Irritating"? I find it a Three.

My whole goal here was to find one speaker with the screws needing one more twist. And done. We will see what six months brings.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051235 - 03/20/13 08:50 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: McBuster
But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

[...]

Electronic using the Virtual Technician.


If the tonal characteristic of the note in question moves up/down when transposed, it's almost certainly a component of the original sample, and therefore not a mechanical issue.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2051241 - 03/20/13 09:10 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Kawai James]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: McBuster
But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

[...]

Electronic using the Virtual Technician.


If the tonal characteristic of the note in question moves up/down when transposed, it's almost certainly a component of the original sample, and therefore not a mechanical issue.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hmmmm ...

I thought the opposite. If one key plays the note that sets the mechanical side abuzz, moving that note to another key would do the same thing. Right?

Assuming the key mechanism is not at fault, but some other mechanical component that lights up at a certain frequency from sound produced by the speakers, which key was used would have no bearing.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051243 - 03/20/13 09:13 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Do you hear the 'twang' in headphones as well as speakers?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2051246 - 03/20/13 09:18 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
@KawaiJames
It could still be a mechanical issue in the sense that something mechanical is resonating -- excited by a very specific partial in one particular note. I'm always amazed how a particular note on my acoustic can excite buzzes outside the piano -- e.g., a window blind, a light fixture, or a part of the piano's cabinetry. We've all probably seen this, so I suppose this is an obvious point.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#2051248 - 03/20/13 09:23 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, I know what you mean guys.

Hmmm...well, the headphone test is probably the best way to find out.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2051253 - 03/20/13 09:29 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Kawai James]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
As I stated at the top, using headphones, or a recording, the Twang dissappears.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2051258 - 03/20/13 09:39 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Ah, my apologies...I missed that.

Time to call it a night!

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2051263 - 03/20/13 09:51 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Here is the original Link to the Sounds I hear. On my headphones and with my ears, I do hear a difference.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1983577/Kawai%20CA95%20-%20(G)%20Above%20Middle%20.html#Post1983577
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2053511 - 03/24/13 02:10 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Hookxs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 251
Loc: Czech Republic
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.

Top
#2053566 - 03/24/13 04:27 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Hookxs]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Hookxs
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.


Give me a day or two ... Thanks ...
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2056374 - 03/29/13 05:26 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Hookxs]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Hookxs
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.


Tried this. On my version, whether a recording or headphones, Left or Right Channel, all is normal. I hear it only, when using the soundboard/speakers etc.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2250261 - 03/22/14 12:53 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
midenok Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/24/14
Posts: 5
So what are the markings on a 2 large chips? It is impossible to read anything from the photos. I'm pretty sure there is one of Renesas CPUs SH-1, SH-2, SH2-DSP, SH-2A, SH2A-FPU. But which one??

HI7000/4 Real-time OS for SuperH Family

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#2250321 - 03/22/14 04:52 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
Try temporarily moving the CA95 to another room.

Top
#2250376 - 03/22/14 08:53 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
Yasu Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/14/14
Posts: 10
Nothing wrong with using plastic in the keybed - short of CNC machining nothing can compare with the dimensional precision of injection molding, and due to high tooling cost it makes sense you would see it in a keybed which can be amortized across several models.

I am surprised at the sound system. I expected to see some speaker box bracing, porting, placement similar to a higher end studio monitor. It seems there would be huge room for improvement in this area utilizing the same amps and drivers. I do like the soundboard/transducer concept, don't stop there Kawai!


Edited by Yasu (03/22/14 08:54 AM)

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#2250403 - 03/22/14 09:52 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
R_B Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 541
Curious that the power supply pics show such LARGE heat sinks.
The need to dump heat == inefficiency {IMO}
Power supplies are SUPPOSED TO HAVE low internal resistance, etc.

Top
#2250407 - 03/22/14 09:57 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster]
R_B Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 541
re the twang; Any chance off hooking up a signal generator and "injecting" that frequency directly to the speaker board ?
It could be something as simple as a loop of speaker wire that is just the 'wrong' length for that note.
Things like that can HANG differently when the assembly is in/out of the cabinet or held vertically/horizontally.

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