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It's all good KS. I've listened to all the posts. The two of the Cantata 147(final movement) are far better then any I had come across.

When we started looking at this, I thought Hess was perhaps one of his 20 kids. As it turns out though, they were approximately 200 years age difference, so that just didn't work.

I feel I know a fair bit about the background of this piece now. Thanks for the posts and additional info.

Well this is for all of us since we have a kind of study group going here. I learned a few things myself doing the research, and welcomed the opportunity. I found it especially interesting to listen to the other versions, and what had been done to that simple melody.

Greener, listen to this - Myra Hess herself playing it - and it's superb!

Myra Hess

Yes, I like this one. I find it easier to follow the score with than Alon's performance, but it could be I'm just getting better at it. I've noticed Myra is using much more of the rolling chords in LH vs. how Alon does it and how it is in the score posted. This is a good one to reference thus, and decide which/if any of these I will use.

Both of them -- Myra and Alon -- do a fabulous job of making the chorus line melody sing out from the accompaniment (prelude). I'm finding this to be the hardest part of the whole thing as it not a typical melody line, highest on the treble staff. Rather right in the middle of everything. It will definitely take a lot of practice to do it well.

I read an interesting thing in the first music history book that I read. Namely that formal music became available to non-professionals at some point - the nobility and high class first - and at that point the melody switched places. With a less deep understanding, the new performers needed to have the melody on top so they could recognize it, and apparently it was not necessarily on top before.

I found the "other" versions that I posted, the ones by both Bach and Pachelbel, interesting - especially trying to hear the melody poke out from flurry of notes. It's like looking at an abstract painting - like cubism.
like this - cubism

Nice collection.
I was first time play before a month ago and now learn many things. I am looking some video tutorials about it. can you recommend any good place?

When I first saw this I wanted to make sure I got in something about the "Joy of ..." as I don't like leaving things half finished -- Judy would absolutely clock me over this statement if you saw how I live .

I think we can move past Haydn though. Mozart or something completely different sounds good. Debussy clair de lune is a lovely piece. Is this one worth looking at? Or, any other is fine with me.

There are some good (and some not so good I think) tutorials that I have come across for a particular piece I was interested in. Even there though, you need to sort through the arrangement you want and skill level it is geared towards.

You're in the right place now, by being on PW. Perhaps others have ideas of good tutorial sites. I liked 7notemode for this particular arrangement of Tenderly I was interested in. But, it is NOT entry material. There are others you will find I am sure, with a bit of digging.

Stick around, as there is a lot to learn in this thread.

I looked up Dvorak. The wikki article puts it into the plural, and says they are a cycle. So you're thinking of one of them. I'm a bit lost. I think this thread started with the idea of sonata form, which gets more complicated over time (?) and expands in its form (?). So Humoresque and Clair de lune - do they fit into that? Or what are we doing?

Richard was asking for voices, so I was just offering mine. I was throwing out the Debussy as an idea of something completely different.

I agree that we should likely try to stay close to the theme of the thread title. But, counting on you and the Captain to keep us on track if my suggestions don't fit, and they often don't.

Richard mentioned Haydn (final movement but not much more for us here) Mozart, an easy piece or something new. I'm game for any of this as well.

Jeff and I addressed this on March 6 but we had visitors wiping their feet here since so let me go over it again.

When we started this thing back in August we were unable to make much headway on our prime purpose, ostensibly understanding major works with a view to composition, because of a lack of theory. The theory has taken time to sink in - it's a big subject in its own right and we've covered in around seven months what might normally fill a year in college or university and we're still not done.

This latest thread was created with a view to looking at sonata form as the most complex of all the forms in that it is defined not by the usual visual landmarks but its tonality, which requires harmonic analysis. But it was never my intention to stick only to what the Americans call sonata-allegro form. Sonatas use a variety of forms and a variety of forms is what we're studying here, still trying to fill our musical understanding and complete a basic knowledge of harmony.

When we finished Clementi's sonatinas we arrived, by consensus, at a softer approach of including with each major sonata an easier piece, playable by most of us, and a more adventurous piece that might offer greater musical or technical challenges or rewards. Shortly after this time the thread was reduced to mostly Jeff and myself, and our jumping around suited our purposes.

We are still intending to follow sonata form through to Liszt's B minor sonata. I neither have the ability nor inclination to investigate the works of Berg, Schoenberg or Webern - I'm overstretched as it is, however it might look to outsiders and am trying to learn this stuff myself as I go along - this is not the sort of analysis I normally do. On the way I have to put up with pot shots being taken at me by those who know more or better, some of whom offer extra edification and some of whom just leave a lingering smell of cordite.

Having dispensed with Haydn our next tranche of pieces is Mozart's K.331 (of which none of it's movements are in sonata form), Chopin's Nocturne in Eb, which I presume after silence from any other analysts is now done, again, and an easy piece, nominally Dvorak's Humoresque. No-one seems interested in the Humoreske so I'm quite happy to whistle past it and, with a lack of other voices or suggestions, dispense with an easy piece.

In light of what it has become the thread may have been mis-labelled (Charles Cooke's classic little work, Playing the Piano for Pleasure, includes a chapter called 'A Discussion of Certain Fine Compositions' and that might suit the thread better) but there was no intent to deceive and I can't rename it now. There are people out there who are able to analyse music more academically than I can and we might have hoped for more input from them but that's not where we are. We are restricted largely to being led down paths I'm familiar with. I bypass areas beyond my knowledge, some because they are too daunting and others because I don't know they exist. I'm a happy amateur, blissful in my ignorance.

Again, this thread is not a course. It is covering ground slowly and surely towards being able to analyse music from simple fare to more daunting compositions in sonata form (the most challenging of all the forms). I've no objection to including symphonies either but concertos are simpler fare being largely ritornello form and the analysis is better suited to those more likely to play them. If you want to join in, join in. If you're not interested in the fare there's no knowledge being missed. You don't have to catch up at any time. We have never objected to simple questions that have been covered before. Nobody is expected to read the previous pages any more here than in the Alfred's Book 1 thread. Just join in and ask what you'd like to know, relevant or otherwise.

Next up then is Mozart's A major sonata. You can enter with a full harmonic analysis, a treatise on its history or popularity (and it isn't short in that area) or just an overview of what you like about it or how you'd go about learning it. It is intended to fill a hole in our skill set, namely that of identifying or recognising themes from mere snippets of them.

It would not be pointless, on a public forum, to restrict our discussion to this piece or to one aspect of it or to those that actively participate. Anyone can join in with whatever they want and we'll continue to accommodate them as best we can while still progressing on our regular path. I'm happy to repeat anything that's been missed or not fully understood. If you spend a few weeks away and want to know where we are, stop us and ask - it's no hassle. Worthwhile analysis isn't done overnight and there is still much before us so digressions offer pleasant interruptions like getting out and stretching one's legs at an interesting piece of scenery on a long coach trip.

Is that OK with everyone (and do we know who everyone is here or might we know who's following)?

For strictly sonatas, I would like to look at some of the easier Beethoven Sonatas sometime. Op. 42, I think. There are two in that Opus to choose from.

I'm open to other things; I don't mind that the thread title says "Sonata" but that we're doing lots of other things.

[ETA: crossposted. I'm very happy to look at the Mozart sonata. Off to look it up. I suspect it will make me very happy doing harmonic analysis (or is it tonal analysis? Harmonic analysis is a field in mathematics, and I always get it mixed up with whether it's the proper name for the field in music as well.)]

Mozart - A Major Sonata; Score Download

In England, harmonic analysis is what we call it when looking at the keys and chords in music.

Waveforms of mathematical functions do not constitute our quotidian vocabulary.

Mozart - A Major Sonata

OK. I am totally confused already. The performance posted takes us as far as the end of Var VI. Then this next one is the Menuetto and Trio. But, then he goes somewhere else and I have no idea where.

Try this, Jeff.

Mozart - Sonata 11 - K331 in A major
Are we looking at all thre movements - variations, menuetto, and the alla turco (rondo form?).?

They're all up for inspection but no-one need participate in areas beyond their interest.

The embolding is my emphasis.

ETA: Ooh... where'd the other one go? I responded to a missing post!

Mozart - Sonata 11 - K331 in A major

Yes, I believe all sorted out now and I see where I was going wrong with following just the Menuetto (i was missing the da capo again). I believe in the score I posted for download there is an extra page at the end that does not belong. I'm not sure where it came from, but is not part of the Coda. Or maybe I have just mixed up my printed pages somehow. At any rate it will be at least a couple of days before we need to worry about it