Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Chances to study without any teacher ?

I was going to learn myself. In doing so. I read a book titled: The Art of Practicing by Madeline Bruser. She had so much to say. I was impressed. I had to find a good teacher.

What I have is a very talented, accomplished performer. I am probably his only beginner. He understands much. He is invaluable to me. Even though we are rather running it like I'm going for whatever I can learn. We go over problems and my misunderstandings in the teaching. He is more like letting me teach myself. But making sure I don't goof up. At this low level, he doesn't need to control me much. We do lessons over Skype.

I do think you can do it. You at least need to read good books like I mentioned above. To give you understanding. Won't be as fast as a teacher. I think you can do it. Keep looking for really good books. Ones that give you understanding. You don't have to buy them. I'm sure the libraries in the UK are like here now. They can get you any book you want. From anywhere.

Thank you all very much for your extremely interesting and invaluable replies and the very important links, it is very much appreciated.

For a while now I have been alone, teaching myself and I feel I have reached a barrier beyond which I am unable to go without returning to the basics so that I can check whether or not I have missed something out which eventually was leading me to hit this barrier.

I have to be honest and strict and not kid myself.

I shall keep playing the pieces I have already studied, and I shall see whether I can improve.

But I have also bought myself the “Adult-All-In-One-Course”, "Alfred’s Basic Adult Beginner Piano Course", and I shall start today at page one to re-trace slowly and carefully
where I have gone wrong to hit this barrier which seems to “have cramped me up”.

I thank you all very much for your kind encouragement, your help and your very constructive suggestions,

kind regards from Kristina.

I believe this is the most discussed topic on the ABF... teacher/no teacher.

We all seek advice, encouragement, direction, ideas, etc...

We all learn from others, without a doubt.

With that being said, I do not take lessons directly, one on one, and pay money for it, but I do have many teachers here and there, some here on PW.

I will say that not having direct, one on one lessons from a teacher, I probably have it all wrong. However, I do have my own unique style of playing, likely different from anyone elses. Don't know if others who hear me play like it, but I like it. :-)

Also, learning to play the piano is a never ending process... always learning and polishing what we already know.

All the best!

Rick

I got in here a little late but I want to add one more thing to this discussion.

I have found that the single most important factor in making real progress is staying with something until you can do it very well. I tend to get discouraged and move on to something else and that I find easier. Well, when you do that it takes you longer to break through to that next level.

That is what a teacher can do for you. A teacher can assure you that you can do it and help get you through it.

You can do that on your own also. It just seems harder to keep at it with no-one to push you through it.

I'm sure the right person can do that but I also know from personal experience that, as Edtek has suggested, the wrong teacher can do just the opposite; or as I have also experienced and those students I mentioned in my performance class show, a teacher can provide encouragement and help while creating bad habits or not providing the the skill set you need to achieve your goals. As Rick has said, you can get plenty of encouragement and help from many teachers offering help and advice online for free. Why rigidly accept a single type and risk that it be the wrong kind, while paying for the privilege?

BTW, Don, did you ever get that new keyboard? What did you finally decide on, the Roland 700nx or FP7F?

Hmm just out of curiosity, I wonder what the going rate for piano tuition is in England...?

The going rate is about £4-7 for 15 minutes. (South Manchester and Liverpool)

Which gets cheaper as you block book longer.

With varying experience levels and quality.

As with all industries you will get pish takers.

Sometimes super newly qualified teachers who just got their grade 8s or graduate degrees.

Some kite fliers who play piano as a hobby and decide to make a few extra quid. I know a couple of these people. Helen only teaches piano as a side job, she is only a grade 5. Another Helen who lives nearby is a grade 1, and tries to charge £25 an hour. These kite fliers often own seriously battered or out of tune pianos.

While Andy S, who's been teaching for 15 years and owns a Steinway and a couple of Chang pianos charges £21 for an hour IF you block book 15 lessons and pay in advance.


For a while I was taught by an old geezer, he was charging me about £10 for an hour, he was retired and had 10 students and had been teaching all his life. He retired though as he was starting to get past his prime (see my thread teachers bad day).

Before that I had an old woman who had a LOT of cats, I would give her £15 and get about 2 hours. There were cats EVERYWHERE which meant those 2 hours were more like a 80-85 minutes.

boy do I wish I had access to those rates here in California. Certainly not the place to live if you're broke!

I couldnt even afford those low rates! Not as high as I was expecting mind!

I used to have an awesome professional sax teacher for several years for 45.00 for 45 minutes in about the 1989.

Leaving aside the fingering because it was a sax not the piano.

I learned to count the notes inside a measure because they have to add up.

I learned to count measures because I played in a band and I had to know when to play and not to play.

I learn to read the music and play slowly and without mistakes else you have to slow down to play it correctly - no exception.

I learned to listen to what I play because if you listen to yourself - as opposed to your ego - you will sadly hear your mistakes.

I learned to record myself because hearing what you play lets you hear how you really sound.

I am on a disability pension so I don't have the money for a teacher now, but playing the piano I have had over the life time had a few piano lessons so I know how important it is to have your hand and fingers operating properly. You can see a million videos for free on the internet of the best players doing their thing.

Critical - and I mean critical is to follow to the letter of the law a method book for good reason.

When you are learning something new, you know nothing and will fall in the dark. I am bias, as I have looked at every music method book in a large music store and without a doubt I find that the method piano book for me for the piano is John Thompson Modern course for the piano is safe, has nice pieces and a challenge with every piece.

All I have to do is open my piano book and crawl though a piece measure by measure over about three days and then I can usually in those 3 days get through the piece with few or no mistakes, else I slow down to no mistakes and then play it everyday several times a day for 20 minute periods and play my other pieces I know which I review day after day. It takes me many months of playing the pieces many times everyday playing it to the best of my ability without mistakes. It is a long slow process that is why you have to love the journey.

That is all there is to it. It is critical that you review your pieces because each piece teaches you something so it is critical that you play all your pieces all the time. That is why I can read the music because that I all I do is read music at the piano and play it. You don't look at your hands because there is no reason to. You know where your fingers are on the piano and you say the notes as you play them.


As I have said before, I my dyslexic, I memory problems and have had a stroke, so anyone can learn to play the piano if they follow the method book and play and practice without mistakes slowly.

I found this in a book called Smallwood's piano tutor:

Slow and even counting is essential.
Endeavour to maintain strict time in all exercises.
Correct fingering as shown must be used to ensure smooth playing.
Begin these exercises slowly and gradually increase speed. --------> DON'T memorise the sound, but
READ every note and play it as written with its correct time value.

So you can learn to play the piano without a teacher
if you don't try to cut corners because it will not work.

Remember, once you can play the 5 volumes of any method piano books taking several years, you can play anything else you want, but until then you must do everything well in the book as instructed and practice and review everyday without exception.

That is what a teacher would tell you, if you could afford one.

Michael_99:

BRAVO !!!!

I don't think I have ever heard a more convincing description of how to learn to play the piano. I do believe it is absolutely the truth.

Sadly, almost no-one does that. LOL ...

Everyone, including myself, tries to move too fast. They think they are going to speed up the learning process but soon find that it can't be done. Even, then, they continue to try ... until, in the end, some just give up. Hopefully, your words of wisdom will save a few.

Thanks, Don, for your comments.

Thank you very much again for all your further replies.

I must say I can identify with Michael’s comments
and it echoes very much the way I approach my own playing now.

I tried to cut corners in the past because beginning as an adult from scratch
I had the feeling that I had lost so much time already
and therefore I was speeding along too fast - and then I came unstuck.

Now I can appreciate what Michael means and whether I like it or not
I have got to take my time and not cut corners.

This is especially important when one is learning without any teacher.

Thanks again to you all for your kind support and valuable comments

from Kristina.

I cut corners all time. I owe developing my own eclectic style to it (as does I believe do Count Basie and others). That is, I rarely play a scale or practice a chord sequence or arpeggio in all keys (until two and half months ago that is when I started my jazz theory class, and even there I don't practice much outside of class).

The only book I've followed systematically was the very thin one that came with "Mastering Piano" which I completed in my first few months of self-learning almost four years ago. Since then, I've spent most of my self tutelage listening deeply to songs I want to play or sing and then cobbling together my own arrangements for them. If I can't play some sounds or changes the way I want, I experiment with coming up with other ways I can play them - this process has taught me and helped me to improve in ways that are satisfying to me.

If I never play like Horowitz or Tatum, I play like me, which is more gratifying for me than passing a "grade 5" where all I can do is transcribe someone else's style of playing. It also got me to the point where I could pass an audition for a college advanced piano class where half the students have been taking private lessons since they were four and everyone in the class has been playing much longer than I have. And I don't believe I would have gotten this far if I followed the precepts of the last two posts before yours.



Well, maybe your right. People have different learning styles (something some people repeatedly forget or refuse to acknowledge), but I have found for myself that sometimes the circuitous route is best and things you thought were a waste of time because you weren't ready for them proved to be invaluable to your process later or forced you to be creative in coming up with a facsimile or caricature of what you could later do in more detail.

Just my two cents. I wish you the best in find a way of working that works best for you.

Hello, Starr Keys,

Thanks for your input, it is very much appreciated and I shall think about it.

My aim is to play some Renaissance and Baroque keyboard music
because the music from these eras speaks very much to me
and I appreciate these compositions much more now
than I have in former years.

I love the ability of Renaissance and Baroque composers
to “get the mind away” and “give the mind a holiday”
from the rudiments of all-day-life.

Renaissance/Baroque music is unfortunately not much recorded
and I therefore aspire to read the scores as I do when I read a book -
and that takes a little longer as an adult beginner.

I feel that I cannot cut corners and I cannot yet allow my own free style
to intervene at this point when I am only just beginning
to learn this music.

Thanks again from Kristina.

Kristina,
The enemy to peak performance (for any athletic endeavor, including playing the piano) is tension. This is the most important thing a teacher can help you with, imo. Tension can rear its ugly head in a myriad of ways both subtle and not so subtle. A good teacher can watch you and see signs of this unwanted enemy. My advice is to frequently play through a piece not only slowly but without even worrying about tempo or dynamics or anything but relaxation. Play the notes, and during/after each motion examine your body. How's my posture? Is my pinky finger rising when I strike a key with my other fingers? Is my thumb wandering off the keys? Are my elbows lifting up and flaying out to the sides? Is there tension in my neck? In my shoulder? Is my jaw tightened? Am I breathing? Am I relaxed?

The ultimate goal should be to use only the muscles required for a particular movement and no other muscles. If you can film yourself (even with your cell phone) that can be useful for spotting some of these clues.

People say that practice makes perfect. Unfortunately (or fortunately) that's not really true. It's better to say, "practice makes permanent." If you practice with habits of tension in your body, you possibly set a ceiling of how far you can reach on your piano journey. Train your body to tense only the needed muscles, and only for the instant that the tension is needed to play the notes (then relax). Otherwise your body should be relaxed through and through (relaxed, not collapsed). If you can play in a relaxed fashion, you can play (and practice) for longer periods of time. If you can't, tension will stop you from reaching your goals, or at least make them much harder to reach. In severe cases, this kind of unnecessary tension can even lead to serious injury (lots of pianists need surgery to correct carpal tunnel syndrome, for example).

Really try to pay attention to your body and cultivate an awareness of tension. Only then can you begin to release it (and even that isn't always easy).

Hopefully some good food for thought there.

Warm Regards

Hi Kristina,

Thank you for your kind and courteous reply. Your initial post said nothing about your interest in a particular style. I understand your feeling about it though. I feel the same way about the cocktail piano style. I find it relaxing and transportive to a slower more romantic world. And I definitely believe the key to success with playing any style is relaxation.

I think, given your goals, Michael's advice is very good for you. I had piano lessons as child and hated John Thompson and some of the techniques for learning those pieces that Michael described, so it wouldn't be good for me.

Just keep in mind that people did improvise a lot during the Baroque period and based on my recent experience with a Jazz improvisation class, it's a great way to learn your music thoroughly so that you never lose your harmonic frame of reference while your playing. Even the classical pianist who teaches my performance class has students change time signatures or improvise on melodies to accomplish this goal with their classical pieces, which is why I think its a good idea to experiment with it and not to be afraid to create your own exercises to challenge yourself outside whatever method book you are using.

Thank you very much, fizikisto, for your input about tension.

After reading your explanation about tension
I played on my piano and realized that my little finger
on my right hand stood “out in the air”
and that might have had a very bad effect
to first stiffen my shoulders
and then getting me eventually unstuck.

I am now in the process to “unlearn” this bad habit
and I thank you very much again for pointing out
these very important matters.

Thanks again for your thoughts, Starr Keys.
It is true that keyboard performers improvised a lot
in Baroque and Renaissance times when the composer left it
“according to the taste “ of the performer as how to
embellish the compositions whilst performing them.

I have to learn a lot before I get to that stage,
and I shall keep it in mind
to make sure that I am not getting “too stiff”
and be afraid of any little improvisation.

Could you please give me some details about the author
and publisher of the book and pamphlet of “Master in Piano” ?

Thanks again for your assistance and kind regards from Kristina.

I have a good (I think ) teacher and I think it helps me both in the quality of the end result (think like 3 times better in the details), it helps me keeping on it and hearing the places to work on and the right order (you can't work on all at once IMHO), and it helps me getting there faster (200% ? 300% ?). And it saves a lot of frustration by learning as many things as possible correctly right away.

So I think you can gain a lot by taking a good teacher.

And I believe I'm a pretty fast learner.

Or stated differently, I think for most people, chances without teacher are very slim, unless they set the target really low.

Correction, the name of the self-learning course is Learn and Master Piano and the slim booklet I referred to is the one that comes with it. Though it includes some classical pieces, it is more geared to learning more modern styles and accompaniment patterns.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-LEGACY-..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1d360193



Please do not let yourself be discouraged or disheartened by what wouter says about the inefficacy of self-teaching. His expectations are so high that what he calls "really low" expectations would probably be above average ones for most people. Also, I find his attitude in this post and previous ones to vie dangerously close to the mindset critiqued in this article in the Oxford Press, which most people seem to reject, since almost no one bought the next book by the author on the subject discussed, nor even bothered to review it.

http://www.oxonianreview.org/issues/2-3/2-3-6.htm