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#2052930 - 03/23/13 12:09 PM Glory and No Glory pieces
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4785
Loc: South Florida
That's what I call them for my young students.

"Glory Pieces" are things that work well with an audience and sound much more difficult than they really are.

"No Glory Pieces" are the things that people assume are simple. Players know that they are not.

On a rather advanced level, a typical no glory piece would be the first of the Chopin Trois nouvelles etudes, F minor. It sounds like a dream when it is really well played. Only players know that it is 3 against 4.

Für Elise would be a good example of a "Glory Piece", something that is WAY easier to play than most beginners think.
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#2053404 - 03/24/13 11:11 AM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Gary D.]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7349
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Gary, I generally think of Glory pieces (I like to call them razzle dazzle) as a lot of sound and fury, signifying little. Many/most toccatas fall into this category. As of course, do many others. They make great show-off pieces for students, especially those needing extrinsic motivation. And not-so-well-musically-educated parents eat them up as well.

As for Fur Elise, I classify that as a "shoot me now" piece for teachers, at least. Most students, in my experience begin it way too early. They're incapable of voicing it properly, distinguishing the melody from the accompaniment in the A section, unable to play the B section and triplets in the C section well or up to tempo, and on and on.
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#2053662 - 03/24/13 07:29 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Gary D.]
Brinestone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 352
I always thought sonatinas were no-glory pieces when I was a kid, though I should point out that keeping a steady beat and using correct fingering were my weaknesses then.

Debussy's Dr. Gradus is a great glory piece.
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#2053674 - 03/24/13 08:01 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4785
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Gary, I generally think of Glory pieces (I like to call them razzle dazzle) as a lot of sound and fury, signifying little. Many/most toccatas fall into this category. As of course, do many others. They make great show-off pieces for students, especially those needing extrinsic motivation. And not-so-well-musically-educated parents eat them up as well.

I like razzle-dazzle better, but now I wonder how many of my young students would know that term. I think immediately of “hot-dog”. I will probably be shot but I would say at least some of the Chopin etudes fall into the same category, for instance the “Ocean Etude”. Compare that with the A minor, which doesn't even sound particularly difficult and is a WITCH to play. smile
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook

As for Fur Elise, I classify that as a "shoot me now" piece for teachers, at least. Most students, in my experience begin it way too early.

SMN pieces. “Shoot Me Now”.

Oh man, I LAUGHED when I read that. Well, there are a lot of SMN pieces. I look at them as things that sort of go with the job. In other words, if you get the average student to wind up and have a go at some of these cliches and they manage to play them, often it can pump them up. I see them as double-edged swords.

I teach Für Elise in three stages, and only when students are especially quick will I try to finish all three at one time. For the rest I teach the theme, the ending, plus the pickups at the beginning as its own piece. It is a way of simplifying by LENGTH rather than changing notes.

Phase two involves the C section, and I do not much mind teaching that because it allows me to introduce or stress a dim7 chord (E G Bb C#), which also forms an A7b9 chord with the bass note, the concept of a pedal tone and perhaps the meaning of a bass ostinato. I also get to make fun of the horrible sound if a student pounds those repeated As.

“Why are you making this into a Beethoven Indian Dance?” And that usually prompts a discussion of whether or not I can SAY “Indian”, since for awhile it was totally non-PC but has since been defended by many Native Americans who themselves prefer “Indian”.

Finally the B section. That is the part that usually tends to drive me around the bend because it is about three times as difficult as the rest of the piece. But one good thing about this part is the opportunity to show that often a tempo change is necessary, logical and superior, since playing the B theme at the exact same tempo as the A theme results in either a plodding A theme or a racing, totally unmusical B theme.
Quote:

They're incapable of voicing it properly, distinguishing the melody from the accompaniment in the A section, unable to play the B section and triplets in the C section well or up to tempo, and on and on.

All true, but I think perhaps that the proper us of the sustain pedal may be the biggest issue. I have come to that conclusion through the way transfer students play it – to say nothing of incredibly wrong notes. smile
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#2053740 - 03/24/13 11:14 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Brinestone]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5461
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Brinestone
Debussy's Dr. Gradus is a great glory piece.
Really?

I think Debussy was being difficult on purpose. The opening R.H. passage is not intuitive at all. Of course, that's just my opinion based on having taught it a total of two times (to two of my most talented students of all time).
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#2053742 - 03/24/13 11:15 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5461
Loc: Orange County, CA
Another SMN piece: Rondo alla turca. It is play SO poorly by SO many students.
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#2053743 - 03/24/13 11:16 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Gary D.]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Hmm. I think Dr. Gradus is particularly intuitive! Different strokes for different folks.
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#2053768 - 03/25/13 01:20 AM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5461
Loc: Orange County, CA
Glory pieces:

Heller, Avalanche

Burgmuller, Tarantella from Op. 100

Chopin, "Minute" Waltz

Khatchaturian, Toccata (this one is very, very pianistic), Sonatina
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#2054003 - 03/25/13 12:57 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: AZNpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7576
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Glory pieces:

Chopin, "Minute" Waltz


I wouldn't say that. I'd classify it more as an SMN. Students tend to play it at ridiculously slow tempos and bang the LH as hard as possible. Then they can't even begin to figure out the 3 against 4 in the middle section, and there's no telling what key the ending scale will be in.
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#2054098 - 03/25/13 04:00 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: AZNpiano]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Glory pieces:

Heller, Avalanche

Burgmuller, Tarantella from Op. 100


Nice jokes shocked

The Glory pieces are:
- Gradus ( I agree)
- Valse Triste by Gyorgi Cziffra - sound immense, not so difficult to pianist
- Finale of Moonlight - hard because of duration, but easy patterns with some base structures. Also convinient to play with a lot of black keys.
- Chopin Butterfly Etude and op25 nr 5
- Fantaisie - Impromptu - where the main problem is 3/4 rhytm, while the right hand is always straight under your fingers


Non glory - A lot of Schubert, Liszt, Brahms and many more

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#2054130 - 03/25/13 05:07 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: kapelli]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5461
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: kapelli
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Glory pieces:

Heller, Avalanche

Burgmuller, Tarantella from Op. 100


Nice jokes shocked

The Glory pieces are:
- Gradus ( I agree)
- Valse Triste by Gyorgi Cziffra - sound immense, not so difficult to pianist
- Finale of Moonlight - hard because of duration, but easy patterns with some base structures. Also convinient to play with a lot of black keys.
- Chopin Butterfly Etude and op25 nr 5
- Fantaisie - Impromptu - where the main problem is 3/4 rhytm, while the right hand is always straight under your fingers


Non glory - A lot of Schubert, Liszt, Brahms and many more


Except that I wasn't joking. This is a teachers' forum, so most of the time people here are talking about kids.

Most kids don't play Schubert, Liszt, or Brahms, unless you're talking about conservatory kids.
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#2054133 - 03/25/13 05:12 PM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: AZNpiano]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: kapelli
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Glory pieces:

Heller, Avalanche

Burgmuller, Tarantella from Op. 100


Nice jokes shocked

The Glory pieces are:
- Gradus ( I agree)
- Valse Triste by Gyorgi Cziffra - sound immense, not so difficult to pianist
- Finale of Moonlight - hard because of duration, but easy patterns with some base structures. Also convinient to play with a lot of black keys.
- Chopin Butterfly Etude and op25 nr 5
- Fantaisie - Impromptu - where the main problem is 3/4 rhytm, while the right hand is always straight under your fingers


Non glory - A lot of Schubert, Liszt, Brahms and many more


Except that I wasn't joking. This is a teachers' forum, so most of the time people here are talking about kids.

Most kids don't play Schubert, Liszt, or Brahms, unless you're talking about conservatory kids.


OK misunderstanding now it's clear and I can agree with you.
All depends from level.

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#2055444 - 03/28/13 01:48 AM Re: Glory and No Glory pieces [Re: Gary D.]
Whizbang Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 759
Solfegietto is a Glory piece but also a SMN piece.
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