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#2052870 - 03/23/13 09:39 AM What temperament?
fgtrg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 11
Loc: England
Hello all

I am currently learning the Potter F-A temperament but as a beginner am finding it hard to identify accuratly the faster beating 3rds and 6ths. I came across this video of ET using the slow beating 4ths and 5ths which i could identify much easier:

http://youtu.be/lSO80brsazM

Could anyone be so kind as to identify what temperament he was using?

It seems (for me) when listening that it creates a more accurate flow/feel of things when using the more 'pleasing' 4ths & 5ths as the primary measure.. When tuning the octives I noticed instead of using the 3rd/10th test he used 4th/5th. Does this help in setting the proper stretch?

Any help much apprieciated..

Jim

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#2052876 - 03/23/13 09:49 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
you need both to tune. 4th and 5th are quieter, by evidence. They are preferred for tuning but one must listen and identify correctly the fast beats as well

The piano is low to begin with so the A dropped 1Hz+- due to the rest of the strings pulled.


Edited by Olek (03/23/13 10:06 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2052883 - 03/23/13 10:13 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
"You can't get there from here". The fourths and fifths are too slow to accurately judge . Used by themselves, there will be enough error accumulated as you go around the circle that your thirds will be evidently uneven. Rather than trying to count beats, I think it is more useful to be able to compare them. It is a sensual activity, but listening to the m3/M3 beat rates in comparison to each other, within a fifth, trains the ear in a way few other things can. Once the actual tuning sequence is internalized so that it isn't competing for attention, you can expend your energy on simply making decisions. Gradually, your perception and judgement will focus on differences of speed, and instinct will place the pin. The speed of the faster intervals provides a vernier measurement, and without that fine a scale, any circulating temperament will be rough.

In ET, I move the hammer as I listen to the fourth or fifth, but I certainly measure where it lands with thirds and sixths.
Regards,

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#2052897 - 03/23/13 10:48 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Europe
Set the temperament between E3 - E4. Then it will be much more easy for you to hear the beats of thirds and sixs. You should listen to the fourths and fifths but it is with thirds and sixs you you get the exact temperament.

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#2052907 - 03/23/13 11:11 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21293
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: fgtrg
... I came across this video of ET using the slow beating 4ths and 5ths which i could identify much easier:

http://youtu.be/lSO80brsazM

Could anyone be so kind as to identify what temperament he was using?
Jim


(Emphasis added!)
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2053000 - 03/23/13 03:31 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: Ed Foote]
fgtrg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 11
Loc: England
Thank you very much for sharing your experience. This makes more sense now. using the 4ths and 5ths as a rough guide and looking for the fast beating progressions to set. The differance in beat rates are much clearer to hear in a progression. With the potter F-A I find the hardest to set is the first 3rd on F. This F is a wound string and comparing it to the steel triad string is hard to hear changes in beat rate ( inharmonicity Maybe?) It gets clearer to change once other 3rds are set to compare it with. But it would be nice to start off the temperament on a good footing, practice, practice I guess..

Thanks,
Jim

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#2053057 - 03/23/13 05:36 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Use what you can hear easily first. Then as your ear becomes more acute move to the more difficult processes. It is a learning/training process.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2053068 - 03/23/13 05:56 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: fgtrg
... This F is a wound string and comparing it to the steel triad string is hard to hear changes in beat rate ...
If the F is wound, we are probably talking about a short scale piano. This will be the first difficulty as temperaments fall into place much nicer on longer pianos. In situations like this, it may be easier to use a temperament which does [not] use the wound F. I use an A3 to A4 temperaments which works great.


Edited by Supply (03/23/13 10:47 PM)
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
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Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2053085 - 03/23/13 06:21 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Personally, I like setting A3 to A4, then the temperament from D3 to D4 because it will incorporate wound strings as well as strings from the bass bridge when setting the temperament on small pianos.

However, there is one more advantage...
The 3rds and 6ths beat slower down there, so it's easier to get a good progression of beat speeds there before expanding the temperament outward.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2053103 - 03/23/13 07:06 PM A-A temperament [Re: Supply]
fgtrg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 11
Loc: England

Thanks for the suggestion, can anyone point where i can get more details on tuning this temperament...

Thanks again,
Jim

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#2053111 - 03/23/13 07:19 PM Re: A-A temperament [Re: fgtrg]
Chris Leslie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 558
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
fgtrg, temperament, per se, has to do with the relative intonation between different notes of the scale. Temperament tuning method is what I think you are concerned with. Bill Bremmer provides one of the few explicit descriptons of a method for tuning ET here
Edit: But it does go down to F3


Edited by Chris Leslie (03/23/13 07:24 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2053212 - 03/23/13 11:17 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: BDB]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2039
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: fgtrg
... I came across this video of ET using the slow beating 4ths and 5ths which i could identify much easier:

http://youtu.be/lSO80brsazM

Could anyone be so kind as to identify what temperament he was using?
Jim


(Emphasis added!)
I noticed that too, but I think he meant temperament sequence.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2053284 - 03/24/13 05:16 AM Re: A-A temperament [Re: Chris Leslie]
fgtrg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 11
Loc: England
perfect, just the information I was looking for,

thanks,
Jim

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#2053285 - 03/24/13 05:32 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
MakeANote Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 6
Loc: NSW Australia
Hi there Jim. To sequence is known, at least I know it, as a variant of the 'Yamaha sequence' taught at the Sydney Con when there was a course there. It involves the use of tuning by 4ths and 5ths, but structures the sequence in such a way so you are always tuning down. 4ths are wide, and 5ths are narrow, so the sequence follows- A4 (fork), then A3, check with F2/3 for beat speeds. Then A3-D4 (tuning the D wide and bringing it down), then D4 to G3 tuning the G narrow and bringing it down. Following this sequence, you begin checking with the thirds at F3A3 and sixths at F3D4. The next interval follows as F3A#3 (which allows the check of A#3D4 to compare the 3 main intervals that the Potter method seems to begin with, as well as setting up contiguous thirds.)

Knowledge of the thirds and sixths is a vital check for evenness, particularly in discerning the speed of the rising chromatics. As I said earlier, this method was taught in the formal Australian course at the Sydney Conservatorium. You can learn more about the method here: pianoservices.com.au/tuning/SydCon.pdf

I began with learning the Potter method, but some good friends and colleagues spent time demonstrating this alternative method to me. Having a working knowledge of both seemed to really benefit my accuracy and speed.

All the best,
Ian


Edited by MakeANote (03/24/13 06:17 AM)
_________________________
A.Mus, B.Mus, Dip.Mus.Ed
Pianist - Teacher - Tuner

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#2053329 - 03/24/13 08:13 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
Yes working all intervals (or 2 series of intervals) in the same direction is a good aid tactility wise.

When making a temperament on a piano a bit too low, as tge one of the demo, the slip due to bridge motion have to be taken in account. So the intervals can be tuned compromised, and the pitch must be higher than intended.

I do so from a3 to a4 . Obligation to recognise very fast beating for 6th and 3ds. It is not as difficult, then lower intervals are easier to tune.

Ih slope is rarely perfect at the bottom of the long bridge, so the 3ds ladder is not an absolute there. If your bridge look "straight" you can use low notes for temperament.

Anyway all mistakes left in temperament are find and corrected when you expand it.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2053512 - 03/24/13 02:10 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: MakeANote]
fgtrg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 11
Loc: England
Thanks Ian, interesting the article mentions the very point regarding some pianos having the wound F string in the temperament sequence. So useful to have these referance works in speeding up the learning process..

Excellant!
Jim

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#2053663 - 03/24/13 07:34 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: BDB]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: fgtrg
... I came across this video of ET using the slow beating 4ths and 5ths which i could identify much easier:

http://youtu.be/lSO80brsazM

Could anyone be so kind as to identify what temperament he was using?
Jim


(Emphasis added!)


Sadly BDB, the data you provided fgtrg was meaningless.

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#2053690 - 03/24/13 08:28 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21293
Loc: Oakland
Sadly, yes, fgtrg is still not using proper terminology.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2055382 - 03/27/13 10:43 PM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: fgtrg
Hello all

I am currently learning the Potter F-A temperament but as a beginner am finding it hard to identify accuratly the faster beating 3rds and 6ths. I came across this video of ET using the slow beating 4ths and 5ths which i could identify much easier:

http://youtu.be/lSO80brsazM

Could anyone be so kind as to identify what temperament he was using?

It seems (for me) when listening that it creates a more accurate flow/feel of things when using the more 'pleasing' 4ths & 5ths as the primary measure.. When tuning the octives I noticed instead of using the 3rd/10th test he used 4th/5th. Does this help in setting the proper stretch?

Any help much apprieciated..

Jim


This is a very loaded question! Thanks to Chris Leslie for linking to my ET (Equal Temperament) via Marpurg article. I have actually taken that idea much further and will be presenting it at the next PTG convention.

To answer your very specific question about octaves, if you learn to tune the temperament the way it is presented in the article and the videos of me tuning it that PTG put on You Tube, you will be able to tune very beautiful octaves indeed and not by listening to jangling rapid beats but by finding the point where there is no beat at all!

In the video you referenced, the tuner says he is going to tune ET, so that is the "temperament" he is attempting. As others have suggested, what you are really asking is, "Which sequence for tuning ET is he using"?

The answer to that is that he is using a transposed sequence from the classic book by William Braide-White. That transposed sequence (or one very similar to it) can also be found in that book.

The problem is that most people who either use the original (from a C fork) or the transposed sequence (from an A fork) only depend upon the sequence alone and do not know or use the myriad of Rapidly Beating Interval (RBI) checks which are necessary to correct and guide the temperament through to completion.

The result will often be anything but ET! The man in the video displays that very well. He does manage to correct it somewhat but rather haphazardly.

The problem is that he has to literally guess at how much tempering each interval needs through several steps before he has a single RBI check to evaluate. If he guesses wrong on the first interval, he uses the result of that incorrect guess to guess again a second time and then a third and fourth time and so on. The only consequence of that can be a compounding of errors.

He may have followed the sequence dutifully. The fourths and 5ths may have been easily heard as opposed to those jangling RBI's but the problem is that those guesses were all just slightly inaccurate.

For an entire century or more, technicians have been claiming to tune ET just because they followed that particular sequence or some transposition of it but have deceived themselves and their clients in doing so.

To really and truly tune ET is far more complex than what you see in that video. However, if you really want to keep mostly to 4ths & 5ths, the ET via Marpurg idea will allow you to do so but I must say that nothing about piano tuning is easy. You still have to discern some RBI's in the very beginning.

PTG put these two videos on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmNtIjSVLiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVbyqoKoBk4

Then, the rest of the ET via Marpurg sequence which is all downhill from that (much easier) is documented here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DoA2gvBZ...wuxY2xY3g_y1Cv4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lifMmOQtNCw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

While the complete information about how to tune the octaves up and down from this temperament is still in the process of being written, it is really a very simple matter. When the octave and corresponding 4th & 5th all sound alike, the octave is correct. When all four notes are played together, NO BEAT IS HEARD! That is because the slight beats that there are in each of the intervals cancel each other.

When you progress to double and triple octaves, the same principal applies. Double octave and octave-fifth beats cancel each other. The result is a beatless sound! Doube octave-fifth and triple octaves also produce a pristine and beatless sound!

This actually means that you can use the principals (with just a bit of enlightened understanding) that a 17th or 18th Century tuner would have used to tune a modern piano to the very highest standards possible!

I must say again that nothing about piano tuning will be easy. If you intend to be a piano technician, you must embrace the profession whole heartedly. There is nothing wrong with exploring the subject to see if you like it or not and if it is for you or not. Sometimes, just learning enough about a subject to know when to leave it to professionals is enough.

Good luck with your exploration!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2055582 - 03/28/13 10:41 AM Re: What temperament? [Re: fgtrg]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 367
Hi Bill,
That's great news that you will be presenting a continuation of your wonderful ET via Marpurg sequence! I don't know what copyright issues are in place at the PTG conference, but please have someone record/video you (even short segments with their smartphone), as I and many others interested in this topic will be unable to attend the conference.

I use your Marpurg sequence every time I tune a piano, and it has never let me down. I can feel confident that I have tuned true ET (or as close as my ear can get it smile ) when I am finished with the piano. I point people online and in person to your website and articles.

If you cannot get a live video recording of you tuning your updated Marpurg, would you please eventually get a YouTube video up (like you have for original Marpurg and mindless octaves), or at least an updated article on your website?

Thanks so much! I hope a lot of technicians attend your class at the conference!

-Erich

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