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#2053233 - 03/24/13 12:23 AM Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B
Dwscamel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 478
Dear fellow piano thugs,

I'm pretty stuck on the last two of the following measures of Rach's prelude op. 32 no. 10 in B minor:



1. In the third measure pictured, right before the beginning of the scale, there's a straight line connecting the F in the treble to the E in the bass. What does this mean and how might I interpret it?

2. In that same measure, what is the timing of the quintuplet in the right hand relative to the last sextuplet in the left hand? I don't understand this part of the rhythm.

Finally,

3. In the fourth measure, what kind of practice can I do so that my left hand isn't so weak when playing with the right? The LH notes get completely drowned out by the RH every time; I can't seem to keep my hands 'strongly independent'.

Thanks everyone.

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#2053240 - 03/24/13 12:35 AM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
1 - the line tells the reader that the melodic line with the E - F# motif continues from the top staff to the lower staff. (Use the left hand still though).

2 - Match the first note of the right hand with the D in the left, so you play a 5/3 rhythm (the bar's rhythm will make sense - eigthh - quarter - quarter - 5 notes in 1 eighth note).

3 - once you start getting good with the right hand, you can start to pay more attention to your left. Once you find the right balance, its not hard to interpret, since there aren't really any voicing issues. And IMO, the left hand should just provide the harmonic "shading" underneath the flying cadenza figurations so it doesn't have to be loud. Slow practice always helps.


Edit: Ahahahaaaa, so we're all thugs now?? :P


Edited by Kuanpiano (03/24/13 12:36 AM)
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2053243 - 03/24/13 12:51 AM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Kuanpiano]
Dwscamel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 478
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
1 - the line tells the reader that the melodic line with the E - F# motif continues from the top staff to the lower staff. (Use the left hand still though).

2 - Match the first note of the right hand with the D in the left, so you play a 5/3 rhythm (the bar's rhythm will make sense - eigthh - quarter - quarter - 5 notes in 1 eighth note).

3 - once you start getting good with the right hand, you can start to pay more attention to your left. Once you find the right balance, its not hard to interpret, since there aren't really any voicing issues. And IMO, the left hand should just provide the harmonic "shading" underneath the flying cadenza figurations so it doesn't have to be loud. Slow practice always helps.


Edit: Ahahahaaaa, so we're all thugs now?? :P



Yes. I've lurked these forums for years before finally registering for an account, and I was certain the first reply would be something along the lines of:

'you don't even know [what the line means] and you think you can play this?'

'ask your teacher'

'stop playing the piano altogether'

'[random comment about how great this sounds on the new Steinway]'

I'm pleasantly disappointed. Rock on, K-thug.

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#2053412 - 03/24/13 11:20 AM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2358
Loc: San Jose, CA
Play the accented note with a lot of pressure. It might even feel like an excessive amount, but that's sometimes what it takes to force clarity in a section like this where there's a lot going on.

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#2053469 - 03/24/13 12:58 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1145
You could also practice both hands together, but with the RH silently playing the notes while the LH actually plays them. This might take a bit to get used to in terms of coordination, but it is worth the time spent.

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#2053570 - 03/24/13 04:32 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
I'm just gonna tag into this post because I have a question about the two measures right before this [hope you don't mind Dwscamel!]

So in the Tempo L'istesso, I'm having the hardest time with the measures with all the 32nd notes. I recognize that the rhythm is essentially speeding up to be moving twice as fast as at the start of the page, and when I'm going very slow and counting out loud I can get it, but I'm having trouble getting this part to speed. From my understanding, the legiere marking means play softly, close to the keys, sort of floating over them almost and perhaps "flat fingered" somewhat. Even thinking like this I'm having issues being fluid, :[.

Any particular technical advice to those who have played the piece and have this part fluid? These are the only two measures I still can't quite lock down on and it's frustrating! I have my lesson on Wednesday and I'll speak with my teacher about it, but I was hoping to be able to play the whole piece for him at my lesson rather than focus on these two measures.

Linked below are the two measure I'm talking about

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B660i4BoAORxLTdkTVZqYkhJaUU/edit?usp=sharing

Just let me know what you did on these measure to make it "click".
_________________________
Piano/Composition major.

Proud owner of a beautiful Yamaha C7.

Polish:
Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 104
Bach WTC book 1 no. 6.
Dello Joio Sonata no. 3

New:
Chopin op. 23
Bach WTC book 2 no. 20

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#2053576 - 03/24/13 04:42 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Notice that all of the octaves are marked staccato (same with many of the chords in the piece - it's important to recognize which chords are supposed to be played staccato and tenuto throughout, because once you look, it's actually opposite to what you expect), so move your hands over the octaves and "bounce" off of them. Do this as opposed to "falling" onto the octaves to get the lightness and to get you back to playing the double notes.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2053896 - 03/25/13 09:56 AM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 211
Originally Posted By: Dwscamel
Dear fellow piano thugs,

I'm pretty stuck on the last two of the following measures of Rach's prelude op. 32 no. 10 in B minor:



1. In the third measure pictured, right before the beginning of the scale, there's a straight line connecting the F in the treble to the E in the bass. What does this mean and how might I interpret it?

2. In that same measure, what is the timing of the quintuplet in the right hand relative to the last sextuplet in the left hand? I don't understand this part of the rhythm.

Finally,

3. In the fourth measure, what kind of practice can I do so that my left hand isn't so weak when playing with the right? The LH notes get completely drowned out by the RH every time; I can't seem to keep my hands 'strongly independent'.

Thanks everyone.


This passage has one of my favorite notational mysteries (or errors): in the fourth measure, left hand, what are you supposed to do with the horizontal accent over the second independent g in the first sextuplet?

Jeff Kallberg

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#2053953 - 03/25/13 11:32 AM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2358
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
This passage has one of my favorite notational mysteries (or errors): in the fourth measure, left hand, what are you supposed to do with the horizontal accent over the second independent g in the first sextuplet?

Jeff Kallberg


It is a tenuto marking, so it's an indication of length rather than accenting.

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#2053957 - 03/25/13 11:35 AM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: jeffreyjones]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18129
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
This passage has one of my favorite notational mysteries (or errors): in the fourth measure, left hand, what are you supposed to do with the horizontal accent over the second independent g in the first sextuplet?

Jeff Kallberg


It is a tenuto marking, so it's an indication of length rather than accenting.


Rachmaninoff uses more 'tenuto' markings in his scores than any composer that I know of.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2054000 - 03/25/13 12:53 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: BruceD]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2358
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Rachmaninoff uses more 'tenuto' markings in his scores than any composer that I know of.


Yes, agreed. It's fortunate that we have his recordings to understand that he didn't intend the pianist to play heavily.

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#2054012 - 03/25/13 01:19 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: jeffreyjones]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18129
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Rachmaninoff uses more 'tenuto' markings in his scores than any composer that I know of.


Yes, agreed. It's fortunate that we have his recordings to understand that he didn't intend the pianist to play heavily.


In the few Rachmaninoff works that I have played (six of the Preludes, one of the Etudes and one Moment Musical), I have often considered that Rachmaninoff's 'tenuto' markings are his way of indicating the use of 'rubato' more than stress or emphasis.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2054256 - 03/25/13 09:22 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: jeffreyjones]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7891
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
This passage has one of my favorite notational mysteries (or errors): in the fourth measure, left hand, what are you supposed to do with the horizontal accent over the second independent g in the first sextuplet?

Jeff Kallberg


It is a tenuto marking, so it's an indication of length rather than accenting.


Maybe, but then it is an extremely unusual instance (possibly unique) of a tenuto mark over the second note of a pair of tied notes. Unless they are not tied, as the upper slur marks might be indicating. Except, they are tied. Unless they are not... Etc., etc.

I wonder what the critical edition has regarding this, if anything.

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#2054258 - 03/25/13 09:35 PM Re: Tricky measures in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10 in B [Re: Dwscamel]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Don't forget that this edition has tons of errors in it as well...
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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