Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
118 registered (Anita Potter, arod7, ando, anamnesis, AndyJoe, 31 invisible), 1392 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2051713 - 03/21/13 02:10 AM Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats?
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4892
Loc: USA
In 'The Last Romantic' documentary Horowitz doesn't play any repeats of the K. 330 Mozart sonata, leaving about an 8 minute shorter sonata. I was just wondering, is this 'not correct'? Was he only doing it for the sake of the time or is there actually some sort of acceptability towards this? It's like Horowitz is saying "Screw the repeats, you've already heard it. On to the next!". It's not like I have anything against what he's doing (I actually think it sounds better without the repeats). But anyhow, is this acceptable in formal situations?

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2051719 - 03/21/13 02:22 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
While the general correctness of this is beyond my league, I'd say the fact that he is Horowitz and he was over 80 makes it completely fine.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#2051720 - 03/21/13 02:31 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19845
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
....is this acceptable in formal situations?

(Or in any situations): Depends on who you ask.
(Sorry, whom you ask.) ha

Most 'pedagogues' would probably say no.
I say, whatever. smile IMO the performer should make whatever choice he feels is best, and we'll appreciate and judge it on its own terms. IMO the worst is when someone takes repeats but doesn't show any reason for having taken the repeats. I certainly don't want to hear it just "repeated." Nor do I want to hear it again just LOUDER. ha

BTW I think most audience members are usually thinking, "Please God, no repeats." grin
Anywhere, any time, except with select performers.

I'm talking about pieces like sonatas, but not about something like (for example) the Brahms-Handel Variations. There are some pieces that would sound ridiculous to almost any knowledgeable listener without the repeats. That's one of them. And in sonatas there are some repeats which IMO must be played or else the music sounds woefully incomplete -- e.g. the two little repeats on the next-to-last page of the Appassionata.

BTW in competitions I think the judges pray that the contestants won't take repeats. ha
Again, with exceptions. Someone once played the Brahms-Handel at the Cliburn amateur competition, without any repeats (because of the time limit), and it was ridiculous.

As to what Horowitz usually did or why he didn't take the repeats there....I don't know, but I'd guess he just didn't believe that much in taking those repeats. I said otherwise about a Rachmaninoff recording of Chopin's 2nd Sonata, because in those days, there were stricter time limits on how long any recording could be so I guessed there was a high chance that Rach was just trying to fit into a time limit.

Top
#2051723 - 03/21/13 02:49 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4892
Loc: USA
Nice post! Thanks Mark.

And I think I would have to agree with Horowitz's choice of not playing the repeats. I don't know, maybe it's because that recording is the one I heard first. I've tried listening to the repeats. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Top
#2051729 - 03/21/13 03:45 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Well, it makes sense to me considering he would take steps two at a time when going up and down staircases. smile
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

Top
#2051742 - 03/21/13 04:47 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: Philadelphia
Mark's post was excellent. I'll only add that, typically when a performer chooses to take one repeat over another, it's the first. So, you'll hear many performers take the first repeat, but skip the second (especially in Mozart, where the second repeat occurs at the "end" of the movement). To me, it sounds awkward to repeat the last section, though I'll sometimes take the first repeat. Just depends on how I'm feeling.

There are other performances of Horowitz playing through with the repeats; I just don't have any full performances handy at the moment. I believe, in this clip, he takes the first repeat, but not the second: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd7Q7vhNB-I.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2051806 - 03/21/13 08:40 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12146
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Too often I hear repeats performed when the performer has nothing new to say with them at all. Then it's just boring. If you are going to do repeats, IMO, be sure you've got something different to do with it. Perhaps Horowitz omitted the repeats for this very reason? Who is to say, but personally I'm glad.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2051816 - 03/21/13 09:11 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19592
Loc: New York City
Horowitz was always concerned about "boring" his listeners. I think this is one reason his programs, at least after intermission, usually included many short pieces. Perhaps this is the reason he omitted the repeat.

It would be interesting to listen to some of his sonata recordings to see if he did this regularly.

Top
#2051822 - 03/21/13 09:34 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3667
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Any time Mozart has fewer repeats, I'm a happy camper.

Top
#2051841 - 03/21/13 10:03 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
And in sonatas there are some repeats which IMO must be played or else the music sounds woefully incomplete -- e.g. the two little repeats on the next-to-last page of the Appassionata.



I've heard a couple of concert pianists justify omitting that Appassionata repeat: that the sense of the inexorable trajectory towards the abyss of the furious coda is lost if the repeat is taken. Sometimes I think they have a point, if the pianist is unable to maintain the momentum and jack up the tension when he plays the repeat.....

But one repeat I feel should never be omitted is that in the first movement of Schubert's D960 - if a composer writes extra music for the repeat, a pianist who doesn't play it hasn't played the complete work. (And let's not protect the guilty: Alfred Brendel and his pupils Paul Lewis, Till Fellner and Imogen Cooper..... grin).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2051861 - 03/21/13 10:49 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19845
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I've heard a couple of concert pianists justify omitting that Appassionata repeat: that the sense of the inexorable trajectory towards the abyss of the furious coda is lost if the repeat is taken.....

I'm pretty sure that's about a different repeat -- i.e. the one just before the ones I'm talking about.

Von Bulow has a particularly silly footnote 'explaining' why that repeat shouldn't be taken. grin

Top
#2051864 - 03/21/13 10:59 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: bennevis]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8926
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

I've heard a couple of concert pianists justify omitting that Appassionata repeat: that the sense of the inexorable trajectory towards the abyss of the furious coda is lost if the repeat is taken. Sometimes I think they have a point, if the pianist is unable to maintain the momentum and jack up the tension when he plays the repeat.....

Tovey -as you probably know- was dead-set against it, and wrote brilliantly (when does he not write brilliantly?) concerning the omission. He talks about not being able to go through the death of a hero twice... (sorry don't have the edition handy). My attitude is more of a meh, the movement IMO is too short without it.
Quote:
But one repeat I feel should never be omitted is that in the first movement of Schubert's D960 - if a composer writes extra music for the repeat, a pianist who doesn't play it hasn't played the complete work.

I totally agree. OTH, if one is going to adopt a glacial tempo a la Richter, then I'd just as soon give it a miss.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2051866 - 03/21/13 11:07 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: bennevis

I've heard a couple of concert pianists justify omitting that Appassionata repeat: that the sense of the inexorable trajectory towards the abyss of the furious coda is lost if the repeat is taken. Sometimes I think they have a point, if the pianist is unable to maintain the momentum and jack up the tension when he plays the repeat.....

Tovey -as you probably know- was dead-set against it, and wrote brilliantly (when does he not write brilliantly?) concerning the omission. He talks about not being about to go through the death of a hero twice... (sorry don't have the edition handy). My attitude is more of a meh, the movement IMO is too short without it.


Yep, my edition is Tovey's (not that I always agree with him....) grin .

But about that movement's shortness - you can't get much shorter than Chopin's Op.35 finale (1:10 to 1:35, depending how how fast the wind blows over the graves......). And it too is a moto perpetuo, which gives the impression of a time warp (like Einstein predicted, when velocity increases..... wink ).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2051867 - 03/21/13 11:08 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
OTH, if one is going to adopt a glacial tempo a la Richter, then I'd just as soon give it a miss.


Whatever happened to "heavenly length"? wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2051868 - 03/21/13 11:10 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Let me preface this by quoting what Dvorak wrote in a copy of his 8th Symphony: Once and for all, without the repeat!

Of course, when talking about composers of the Classical and Early Romantic era, it's important to remember that they expected performers to introduce some variety into repeated sections, such as embellishments or different tone colors.

As for Horowitz: sometimes he included repeats, sometimes not. This is especially the case with Scarlatti sonatas, where he seemed to leave his decision to the spur of the moment. When Horowitz played Mozart's K. 330 Sonata in Moscow - he included the repeats for the first half of the movement, but not the last half. For his studio recording of Mozart's K. 333, he included all the repeats - but he omitted the repeat for the last section of the 1st movement when he played it in public - both in 1951 and in 1987.

Horowitz omitted the repeat in Schubert's D. 960 Sonata when he performed it live in 1953 - but included it in his 1986 studio recording.

He generally included repeats when performing Beethoven Sonatas - which indicates to me that he felt they served a structural need.

Some repeats simply do not work, imo. For example, there's a repeat in Chopin's B minor Scherzo, Op. 20 which is not often taken - the piece is repetitive enough as it is.

I am not one of those who believes that repeats should always be taken - nor do I believe they should never be taken. It's up to the discretion of the performer. One of the most unpleasant concert experiences I ever endured was hearing Alfred Brendel plod his way through Schumann's Symphonic Etudes including every last repeat - played exactly the same way as the first time through.

_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

Top
#2051870 - 03/21/13 11:14 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: Derulux]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Derulux
I'll only add that, typically when a performer chooses to take one repeat over another, it's the first. So, you'll hear many performers take the first repeat, but skip the second (especially in Mozart, where the second repeat occurs at the "end" of the movement). To me, it sounds awkward to repeat the last section [...]


For me it's the same as described by Derulux above: often the end of a movement feels like a real conclusion and so it feels very awkward (to me) to repeat from there.

One recent example where I had that issue is the 3rd movement of Haydn's b minor sonata: it ends with a short coda-like statement of the theme in octaves -- impossible to go back from there! Yet, Haydn still wrote a repetition mark.

It seems as though something in how we (or at least many people) perceive this music must have changed quite drastically from the classical age to today (?), otherwise I can't understand why composers whose music I can relate to so much would put repetition marks where I feel no repeat is possible.
_________________________
youtube.com/user/pianovirus

Top
#2051911 - 03/21/13 12:19 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
One of my favorite quotes comes from Brahms, who was asked why he skipped the repeat when conducting one of his symphonies. He said that when nobody had heard the piece, you had to take the repeat, but now that everyone knows it, it is not necessary.

On the other hand, I heard Yvonne Loriod play Mozart's Rondo alla Turca sonata without a single repeat, and felt like she should have played the other half of the sonata as an encore.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2051947 - 03/21/13 01:09 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
pianovirus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 956
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
As a short aside to the topic of repeats - even if one chooses to repeat, it's sometimes controversial from where (e.g. the Grave introductions of Beethoven's Pathétique and Chopin's b flat minor sonata).
_________________________
youtube.com/user/pianovirus

Top
#2052044 - 03/21/13 04:25 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: Derulux]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2385
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Mark's post was excellent. I'll only add that, typically when a performer chooses to take one repeat over another, it's the first. So, you'll hear many performers take the first repeat, but skip the second (especially in Mozart, where the second repeat occurs at the "end" of the movement). To me, it sounds awkward to repeat the last section, though I'll sometimes take the first repeat. Just depends on how I'm feeling.

There are other performances of Horowitz playing through with the repeats; I just don't have any full performances handy at the moment. I believe, in this clip, he takes the first repeat, but not the second: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd7Q7vhNB-I.


In Mozart's day, he used repeats because 1) he was writing the music to spec for each performance he did, so it was only natural to want to get more mileage per note written, and 2) most of the audience would never hear the same piece twice anyway, if the repeats were not taken. In fact, Mozart would often be called to play entire movements over. (Encore, after all, means again!) Which is understandable - you couldn't record it, and you would probably never see him again!

Generally, then, it was a convention that was used as a crowd-pleaser more than as a formal standard, and it's open to opinion whether modern audiences would prefer to hear more Mozart, or less. Starting with Beethoven, the repeats started to become less 'optional,' as he structured his works to be played with precisely the repeats he specified, regardless of the audience's proclivities. I would never skip the second repeat of the Presto from Op. 10/2. But there are still plenty of examples throughout the 19th century of composers who used repeats in the same way to familiarize the audience with the music, even if it wasn't completely justified musically.

Top
#2052050 - 03/21/13 04:51 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: jeffreyjones]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5352
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Mark's post was excellent. I'll only add that, typically when a performer chooses to take one repeat over another, it's the first. So, you'll hear many performers take the first repeat, but skip the second (especially in Mozart, where the second repeat occurs at the "end" of the movement). To me, it sounds awkward to repeat the last section, though I'll sometimes take the first repeat. Just depends on how I'm feeling.

There are other performances of Horowitz playing through with the repeats; I just don't have any full performances handy at the moment. I believe, in this clip, he takes the first repeat, but not the second: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd7Q7vhNB-I.


In Mozart's day, he used repeats because 1) he was writing the music to spec for each performance he did, so it was only natural to want to get more mileage per note written, and 2) most of the audience would never hear the same piece twice anyway, if the repeats were not taken. In fact, Mozart would often be called to play entire movements over. (Encore, after all, means again!) Which is understandable - you couldn't record it, and you would probably never see him again!

Generally, then, it was a convention that was used as a crowd-pleaser more than as a formal standard, and it's open to opinion whether modern audiences would prefer to hear more Mozart, or less. Starting with Beethoven, the repeats started to become less 'optional,' as he structured his works to be played with precisely the repeats he specified, regardless of the audience's proclivities. I would never skip the second repeat of the Presto from Op. 10/2. But there are still plenty of examples throughout the 19th century of composers who used repeats in the same way to familiarize the audience with the music, even if it wasn't completely justified musically.

Sorry, maybe I should have clarified. I understand why they did it.. I just don't like it. laugh
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2052082 - 03/21/13 05:54 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: jeffreyjones]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19592
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Starting with Beethoven, the repeats started to become less 'optional,' as he structured his works to be played with precisely the repeats he specified, regardless of the audience's proclivities.
Can you explain a little more about this? Is this your personal opinion or generally accepted by those knowledgable in this area?

Top
#2052243 - 03/22/13 02:37 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: pianoloverus]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2385
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Starting with Beethoven, the repeats started to become less 'optional,' as he structured his works to be played with precisely the repeats he specified, regardless of the audience's proclivities.
Can you explain a little more about this? Is this your personal opinion or generally accepted by those knowledgable in this area?


There's mountains of scholarship about the structural importance of the repeats in Beethoven's works, yes. There's very little in Beethoven that isn't finely calculated. Even the absence of a repeat in the Op. 57 first movement is planned in such a way that it is complete without it.

Top
#2052246 - 03/22/13 02:44 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Lingyis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 832
yeah i think mark's post is excellent!

while we're on this topic... what do you guys think of schubert's repeats in his sonatas?

i listen to richter and he just insists on playing the repeats and it actually annoys me to no end...

Top
#2052309 - 03/22/13 07:24 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: Hank Drake]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12146
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Hank Drake
One of the most unpleasant concert experiences I ever endured was hearing Alfred Brendel plod his way through Schumann's Symphonic Etudes including every last repeat - played exactly the same way as the first time through.



I have to say this is one of my criticisms of Brendel in particular. I love how he plays Beethoven (I'm thinking mainly of Tempest and Waldstein), but his repeats are identical to the first time through and I find myself wanting fo fast forward through them to get to the development!
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2052319 - 03/22/13 07:49 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12146
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I have an interesting quote from "Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music" by Sandra Rosenblum, copied below in part:

Quote:
In the main, writers of the early Classic and Classic periods offer no options in following notated repeat signs. According to Quantz, "If there are two dots on each side of a double bar..., they signify that the piece consists of two parts, and that each part must be played twice." Turk, Koch, and Hummel all agreed with Quantz. Clementi departed, with this observation: The dotted bars denote the repeat of the foregoing, and the following strain. N.B. The second part of a piece, if very long, is seldom repeated; notwithstanding the dots."

...Nicolas Joseph Hullmandel and Antonio Sacchini were among the early composers who omitted the internal repeat signs in a few such movements. Nevertheless, Haydn and Mozart used the double repeat signs in all their opening sonata-allegro movements for the keyboard except Hob. 52 and K. 576 respectively; in these two late works only the expositions are repeated. Clementi omitted the second repeat in Op. 9/3/iii, which he published in London ca. 1790-1795?. In his autograph revision of Op. 13/6/iii, he put a repeat sign at the beginning of the development section (perhaps out of habit?) but none at the end of the movement, which is marked Fine. The length and power of the second part of this movement convince me that Clementi's N.B. applies here. Of course, in reaching such a decision, a performer needs to consider its effect on the listener's perception of the entire form and of the relationships of the parts to each other.

Beethoven indicated repeats judiciously from the start. In his piano sonatas from Op. 2 on, only nine movements in sonata-allegro form contain repeat signs for the second part. The first movement without one is Op. 2/3/i. Here, presumably, Beethoven must have felt that the extensive cosa, which is only about 20 percent shorter than the development section, would have made a repeat anticlimactic. From Op. 57 on, many of the movements have no repeats, although, interestingly, in Op. 57/iii only the development and recapitulation repeat (before the coda). Beethoven returned to repeats for the expositions of Opp. 106/i and 111/i.

...In the face of this evidence, casual disregard of Beethoven's repeats would seem an affront to his formal designs.


I'd also like to add that in the aforementioned Op. 57/iii, Beethoven writes "la seconda parte due volte" (the second part twice) at the repeat sign of the development section to make sure this is observed.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2053563 - 03/24/13 04:23 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3605
>Too often I hear repeats performed when the performer has nothing new to say with them at all. Then it's just boring.

This seems a common argument. But isn't this a bit strange? If we really like a piece, I'm sure most of us listen to the same CD/MP3 many times. Yet if it's played two times, it's boring?
_________________________

Top
#2053666 - 03/24/13 07:40 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
1RC Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 502
Loc: Alberta
Unless I'm familiar with a sonata, hearing the exposition repeated helps give a sense of the dimensions of the structure and familiarity with the themes. That's how I like to introduce music to friends who haven't heard too much ~200 year old music. "Listen for when the beginning returns, after that whole section has played again the composer will mess around with the ideas a while before wrapping it up similar to the first part".

I figure a few cues can help the listener focus and orient themselves within the structure. When I first started listening to classical music it was a beautiful and intriguing but somewhat baffling series of ideas (coming from a background of verse/chorus/bridge rock music).

Top
#2053693 - 03/24/13 08:40 PM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: wouter79]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19592
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: wouter79
>Too often I hear repeats performed when the performer has nothing new to say with them at all. Then it's just boring.

This seems a common argument. But isn't this a bit strange? If we really like a piece, I'm sure most of us listen to the same CD/MP3 many times. Yet if it's played two times, it's boring?
Or perhaps some pianists believe that changes, if any, should be very minor.

I think if a pianist on the level of Brendel decides to play a repeat exactly the same as the first time through, he clearly has decided to do so for a reason. One many prefer repeats played differently, but it's not as though Brendel is unaware of the idea of changing things on repeats or that he couldn't do so if he wanted to.

Top
#2053772 - 03/25/13 01:42 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: JoelW]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1501
Actually, in Moscow, he did repeat. For that Last Romantic recording session, I think he just did not want to play too long, knowing that he needed to play many pieces.

Top
#2053851 - 03/25/13 08:13 AM Re: Horowitz not playing Mozart repeats? [Re: pianoloverus]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12146
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: wouter79
>Too often I hear repeats performed when the performer has nothing new to say with them at all. Then it's just boring.

This seems a common argument. But isn't this a bit strange? If we really like a piece, I'm sure most of us listen to the same CD/MP3 many times. Yet if it's played two times, it's boring?
Or perhaps some pianists believe that changes, if any, should be very minor.

I think if a pianist on the level of Brendel decides to play a repeat exactly the same as the first time through, he clearly has decided to do so for a reason. One many prefer repeats played differently, but it's not as though Brendel is unaware of the idea of changing things on repeats or that he couldn't do so if he wanted to.


Of course he chose to and could have done otherwise. Nothing I said implied that I thought he was incapable. Clearly I was stating my preference.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!

Trade Regrets:
Barry "Bear" Arnaut

(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Free collection of intermediate to very advanced Xmas music
by pianoloverus
11/27/14 09:39 AM
Some observations about digital piano
by TonyB
11/27/14 09:36 AM
One man show!
by Nikolas
11/27/14 09:00 AM
Just to say "Hello"
by JennyS
11/27/14 05:33 AM
Dyslexia and reading the rhythm
by Nahum
11/27/14 04:18 AM
Forum Stats
77065 Members
42 Forums
159391 Topics
2341412 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission