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Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by pianoloverus


IMO parents should encourage their children to stick with for some reasonable amount of time anything they try. What a reasonable amount of time should be determined by ongoing discussion between the parent and child. If the child is not enjoying studying the piano, the parents try to find out why and consider getting a different teacher if they want their child to continue. I see nothing wrong with dabbling in many activities.


Children tend to not enjoy anything in which they don't immediately succeed. If I child shows interest long enough to warrant the purchase of a piano, then I think the parent should insist on a reasonable time thereafter, not negotiate. It's a good lesson for the child to be careful what they wish for, and they may find that the extra year or so will influence their decision.
What if the piano was only a few hundred dollars or was not a financial burden? Should a child be forced to play with an expensive toy for a required period of time also? Should parents understand that they should not buy an expensive piano until they know their child has a genuine interest?

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by pianoloverus


IMO parents should encourage their children to stick with for some reasonable amount of time anything they try. What a reasonable amount of time should be determined by ongoing discussion between the parent and child. If the child is not enjoying studying the piano, the parents try to find out why and consider getting a different teacher if they want their child to continue. I see nothing wrong with dabbling in many activities.


Children tend to not enjoy anything in which they don't immediately succeed. If I child shows interest long enough to warrant the purchase of a piano, then I think the parent should insist on a reasonable time thereafter, not negotiate. It's a good lesson for the child to be careful what they wish for, and they may find that the extra year or so will influence their decision.
What if the piano was only a few hundred dollars or was not a financial burden? Should a child be forced to play with an expensive toy for a required period of time also? Should parents understand that they should not buy an expensive piano until they know their child has a genuine interest?


I wasn't fixated on the parental investment, just that children tend to not follow through on anything that is difficult, unless pushed.

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The issue centres on the torture of sight-reading .

When the student is very youthful, the lording parents
(with earplugs at the ready), can insist on the daily piano exercises by their woeful offspring ...
fatuously thought to be a dim replica of Wolfgang Amadeus.

Later children tend to duck the menace and head for Hawaii ... hoping that parents might have forgotten about the piano lessons lark ... even dreaming that the family house might have burnt down ...
including the ghastly shiny piano.

And yet ... to call a spade a spade (and all that rot) ... if only the sight-reading had proved a scalable Everest ... instead of a term in Purgatory.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think good parents have ongoing discussions with their children about many things starting from a young age. You can replace "discussion" by "talk" if it suits you.

If the parents are reasonably certain the teacher is not suitable, changing teachers after discussion with their child is the right thing. This should be obvious.


If you'd taken the trouble to read my post properly, I did say that a parent should sit in on the first few lessons, and then the odd subsequent lesson to make sure things are as they should be. If the parent can't tell when a child isn't getting on with his teacher - except when the child says he doesn't want to play piano anymore, then more fool the parent.

That is pretty obvious to everyone - except you.

So, if the child pesters his parents to get him a dog, then lose interest in caring for the dog after two months, and wants the parents to get rid of it - that's also up for discussion, is it?

As I said before, a piano is NOT a toy. And a child is NOT an adult.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Do you actually expect those that feel the opposite(that they wish they had been allowed to quit earlier and clearly some people feel that way)to come up and mention it?


Actually, oddly enough, no grin.

Nobody has to come to hear me massacre the classics in my usual inept manner on the piano. They come because they want to hear classical music. That means they are interested in it, and the piano. Therefore, they are a self-selecting audience.

I have sympathy for those who were made to learn the piano by pushy parents, but who never wanted to learn to play in the first place. But if they were the ones who asked their parents to get them the piano, then the parents have the right to make them practice and learn properly - at least until their teens -, having invested the money into the instrument and lessons.


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The issue centres on the torture of sight-reading .

When the student is very youthful, the lording parents
(with earplugs at the ready), can insist on the daily piano exercises by their woeful offspring ...
fatuously thought to be a dim replica of Wolfgang Amadeus.

Later children tend to duck the menace and head for Hawaii ... hoping that parents might have forgotten about the piano lessons lark ... even dreaming that the family house might have burnt down ...
including the ghastly piano.

And yet ... to call a spade a digging thing (and all that rot) ... if only the sight-reading had proved a scalable Everest ... instead of a term in Purgatory.

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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think good parents have ongoing discussions with their children about many things starting from a young age. You can replace "discussion" by "talk" if it suits you.

If the parents are reasonably certain the teacher is not suitable, changing teachers after discussion with their child is the right thing. This should be obvious.


If you'd taken the trouble to read my post properly, I did say that a parent should sit in on the first few lessons, and then the odd subsequent lesson to make sure things are as they should be.
I read your post and your latest reply has exactly nothing to do with what I quoted from your post and my reply. You said that "ongoing discussions" implied some equality between the parent and child which is not the meaning of those words.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/25/13 06:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Do you actually expect those that feel the opposite(that they wish they had been allowed to quit earlier and clearly some people feel that way)to come up and mention it?


Actually, oddly enough, no grin.

Nobody has to come to hear me massacre the classics in my usual inept manner on the piano. They come because they want to hear classical music. That means they are interested in it, and the piano. Therefore, they are a self-selecting audience.
There could certainly be audience members who disliked being forced to take lessons as a child but who like classical music now. Have they ever come up to tell you how much they disliked being forced to take lessons? Of course not.

Mentioning audience comments about how much they wished they had been forced to take lessons as an argument for forcing children to take lessons automatically leaves out the group of adults who wish they hadn't been forced to take lessons.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/25/13 06:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
There could certainly e audience members who disliked being forced to take lessons as a child but who like classical music now. Have they ever come up to tell you how much they disliked being forced to take lessons? Of course not.

Using audience comments about how much they wished they had been forced to take lessons as an argument for forcing children to take lessons clearly leaves out adults who wish they hadn't been forced to take lessons. Unless, of course, you don't think people like that exist.


Odd, I was about to say that I totally agree with you (because I said exactly that), only for a message to flash up saying you'd deleted your post, which used different words to say what I said wink . Presumably you then re-read my post and switched tack (perhaps realizing you'd misunderstood what I wrote?), and changed to the present post.....

Never mind, life is too short. But I'll try to use proper English next time, as she should be spoke. A bit difficult, because English is my 4th language.

I've got Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji's Opus clavicembalisticum and Ferrucio Busoni's Piano Concerto to learn. Maybe, when I've given a five-hour performance of the Sorabji, people will come up to tell me they were bored to death by the piano, and remembered how much they disliked having piano lessons...... grin


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Originally Posted by woodog
Excellent post WR.

Forrest


Thanks.

I'm thinking I should have put something in there to say that, even if there is no "undo" in life, there is always the possibility of changing your perspective about your own history. There are many ways to shape the narrative you tell yourself about your life, and they can have powerful effects on your current state of mind, IMO.



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Originally Posted by bennevis
Presumably you then re-read my post and switched tack (perhaps realizing you'd misunderstood what I wrote?), and changed to the present post.....
No that's not what happened. I didn't MISunderstand your post and didn't agree with it.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/25/13 10:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by wr
I took lessons for quite a while as a child, but not with a very good teacher. Eventually, in my early teens, I switched to a somewhat better, but not great teacher (that lasted for a year or so, IIRC). Due to various reasons, I decided to quit lessons. But I never really quit playing.

Later, in college, piano was a requirement for the first degree program I tried, and those lessons led to more involvement with the piano once again, for a few years.

What was the question, again? Oh, yes...you want people to talk about the effect of quitting lessons. Actually, I think quitting in my teens was the right thing for me at the time. However, that's largely because the environment was not very supportive for progress, not because of a lack of desire on my part.

Your "building a good work ethic" comment, in a funny way, doesn't apply in my case. Although I loved to play the piano for hours on end when I was young, I never learned how to practice very well. In other words, I didn't work at it much - nobody taught me how, or explained why I should. Because of that, I'd say that much depends on the quality of the guidance one receives and absorbs, rather than on simply continuing with lessons.

But I'm not really a big fan of these kinds of speculations. Life only goes in one direction on the timeline, and the "if only I had done this or that, what would have happened?" questions are not answerable. I can only act in the present, and, as it happens, I am enjoying learning how to practice more effectively now. It may be decades later than when it "should" have happened, but it's not like I can hit an "Undo" button for how my life has unfolded.




This could have been written by me, wr. wink I too studied piano for a while then quit (after 10 years of lessons), but I kept playing and challenging myself. I returned to lessons when I was in my early twenties, then stopped several years ago as I felt they weren't really helping me much and I wanted to devote more time to my singing.

I'll probably study again at some point, perhaps when my chances of having a singing career is over. But I never regret my decisions, just move forward and adjust as needed.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by bennevis
Presumably you then re-read my post and switched tack (perhaps realizing you'd misunderstood what I wrote?), and changed to the present post.....
No that's not what happened. I didn't understand your post and didn't agree with it,


I'm clearly lacking in the intellectual faculties and the innate gift for comprehension which you obviously have in abundance, but, pray, how does one disagree with a post which is unintelligible?

Hmmm, maybe I'd be understood better if I wrote in Esperanto, in our frequent correspondences via this august forum. grin

But it will be my 5th language, and I'd have to learn it first...... cry


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Gatsbee,

My mother played the piano and my father played the clarinet.

My older sister took 2 years of piano and didn't like it. She never went on to other instruments.

I did 2 years of piano (age 9 or so) with a different teacher, quit, and dabbled with two wind instruments.

Our parents never made us practice, or even discussed it with us. They felt the lessons exposed us to music concepts and playing habits, but they didn't have any goals for us. They thought lessons were good background for us, if nothing more. My sister and I could do as much or little as we wanted with it.

I used to do my weekly piano practicing the hour before the lesson. So I didn't make much progress.

I never liked the music I was playing. I think I would have put in more effort if the teacher and I had had an adult conversation about the music I wanted to play (classical) and what it would take to get there. I remember being jealous of my friend Louise who was playing entry-level Bach. But I was too young/timid to speak up.

But no, I don't regret how it went. If my parents had tried to force me to continue I would have hated it and done even less.

But taking up piano again in middle age, I'm thrilled that my long-suffering teacher drilled so many basics into me.

I could have taken it up again in my 20s or 30s, but didn't. There's a right time for everything, and I feel comfortable that age 9 wasn't the right time for me and the piano.

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Originally Posted by BrainCramp
Gatsbee,

I never liked the music I was playing. I think I would have put in more effort if the teacher and I had had an adult conversation about the music I wanted to play (classical) and what it would take to get there. I remember being jealous of my friend Louise who was playing entry-level Bach. But I was too young/timid to speak up.



What kind of music did your teacher make you play?

In my day, anyone learning to play will automatically start on classical music, once the preliminaries have been done.

I think that if my childhood teacher had got me to play jazz or pop tunes, I'd have been totally turned off piano.


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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by BrainCramp
Gatsbee,

I never liked the music I was playing. I think I would have put in more effort if the teacher and I had had an adult conversation about the music I wanted to play (classical) and what it would take to get there. I remember being jealous of my friend Louise who was playing entry-level Bach. But I was too young/timid to speak up.



What kind of music did your teacher make you play?

In my day, anyone learning to play will automatically start on classical music, once the preliminaries have been done.

I think that if my childhood teacher had got me to play jazz or pop tunes, I'd have been totally turned off piano.


Ben,

It had no genre. Or not any genre that I could discern. That was the problem with it.

She didn't use a method book or books of repertoire. Each piece she gave me was a separate piece of sheet music.

She was a classically-trained pianist with a gorgeous Steinway grand. Lessons were in her home.

I have no idea what her strategy with me was. More communication would have helped. Certainly I was old enough to have the conversation, and she had a daughter my age so she would have been able to judge that, but I never said, "Ugh, that's such a dull piece." Fault on both sides, for sure.

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Originally Posted by BrainCramp
Ben,

It had no genre. Or not any genre that I could discern. That was the problem with it.

She didn't use a method book or books of repertoire. Each piece she gave me was a separate piece of sheet music.

.... but I never said, "Ugh, that's such a dull piece." Fault on both sides, for sure.


A teacher - especially the first teacher - can have such an impact on a child learning the piano.

My first teacher was still in her late teens, and in college, when she took me on as her first piano student. I was inordinately proud when she brandished a red volume of real piano music about a month after starting, and put it in front of me. It said: 'Original and Unabridged Classics'. And the first piece I learnt from it was by one 'W.A. Mozart', his Minuet, K1.

Never mind the fact that he was several years younger than me, and barely out of diapers wink when he wrote it with the help of his father. I was playing original music by a great composer, and no longer would I touch very simplified arrangements of classical tunes ever again..... grin


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Originally Posted by bennevis


A teacher - especially the first teacher - can have such an impact on a child learning the piano.

My first teacher was still in her late teens, and in college, when she took me on as her first piano student. I was inordinately proud when she brandished a red volume of real piano music about a month after starting, and put it in front of me. It said: 'Original and Unabridged Classics'. And the first piece I learnt from it was by 'W.A. Mozart', his Minuet, K1.

Never mind the fact that he was several years younger than me, and barely out of nappies wink when he wrote it with the help of his father. I was playing original music by a great composer, and no longer would I touch very simplified arrangements of classical tunes ever again..... grin


Ben,

I would have liked that. But I may not have been at the point where I was ready for "real" pieces. In that case a method book might have helped. I could have flipped through to the end of the book to see where we were going (or trying to go).

She was relentless on posture, hand, and arm position. We spent endless time on that every week (in hindsight, possibly because I hadn't done any practicing). I'm grateful for that, because that was all there for me naturally when I took up piano again 50 years later.

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As a piano teacher and piano player I hear from parents and adults all the time that they wished they had carried on as a child, but that is always easier said than done. There are so many different factors involved, the right teachers, the right student, time to practice, encouragement yet not force from parents, performance nerves, exam fear the list is endless.... So don't be too hard on yourself! Remember it's never too late!

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