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... M1 - M17 A (miscount in the score (M18 sb M17) ... oops) M18 - M24 B M25 - M34 C M34 - M52 A M53 - M58 B reprise M59 - M63 coda
Check your measure numbers. I have 63 measures.
Yes, 63. I renumbered everything from 17 forward but had a typo in my previous post for the coda. I've relabeled everything in my sub-quote above.
I've gone through and verified everything you have mentioned here and it all makes sense to me now ... almost. I'm not clear on what I am looking for here ...
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Note the fall from A to G in M25 (and the move to Gminor). ... Note the fall from E to D in M25-26 (and the move to D minor), from C to B in M28 and the move to B minor.
When I was looking at M25 for example, I get the Gminor, but not the A at all. Should I be looking at the chords here?
Congratulations BTW, Richard on the new keys. When I was feeling wealthier I had done a bit of research myself for digital. Kawai was what I was zoning in on, as they seemed (to me at least) to be head and shoulders above the rest. Good for you. I look forward to hearing you on the new machine in the upcoming recitals and monthly Bar.
Question: when you record on a digital, does this mean you can go straight from your digital (midi file) to your PC software, without the need for MICS (hanging from the chandeliers), wires, pre-amp etc.?
I had looked at this movement and found where it "started over" at measure 35, and was able to match up the measures, and identify the transition measures which in the beginning move from F to C, but in the end stay at F to F. But I couldn't identify anything as an actual theme, and especially not an A and a B. It just all seems like tweedly deedly to me, a bit more elaborate the second time through.
Also in these ultra-slow movements I can never hear the meter. I tend to hear the 32nd notes as 16th notes as I mentally count it while listening, and can't hear a downbeat anywhere. It always makes me wonder what is the point of writing something at such a slow tempo marking, when you're just going to fill it up with fast notes anyway by using lots of 32nd notes.
When I was looking at M25 for example, I get the Gminor, but not the A at all. Should I be looking at the chords here?
Yes, I re-read what I wrote and it's not clear. I'm looking just two notes each time and it's actually the the G to F# im M25 and D to C# that are more pertinent when I'm listening.
What I hear, and what I'm trying to convey is that Pappa Haydn has taken a four line song, in section A, where the third line is a little different from its brothers but it is this one that he's used as inspiration for the transition from B back to A. It is the two notes I pointed out that are most recognisable but I see the whole shape as coming from this third line heavily disguised in the minor chords and the suggestion of part playing not present in lines 1, 2 and 4.
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Thanks for the congrats.
I was surprised how familiar the Steinway D felt when I first tried it as it's so long since I played an acoustic, let alone a grand. I used to play a Blüthner concert grand quite regularly and is the reason I moved from upright acoustics to a Clavinova. It just felt so much closer and gave me a wider dynamic palette and greater control than the uprights.
But I got on throughout the models and really the CA-95, with its extra volume and soundboard was much better than the lesser acoustics. With a different life, house and bank account I might have been tempted by a six foot Shigeru Kawai or Yamaha grand or even a Yamaha U3 but for my playing (and I'm no Pogorelich or Zimmerman) the CA-95 didn't even feel like a compromise. My Beethoven, Schubert and Liszt all felt and sounded as good on it as on the Bechstein or Steinway grands.
My old Clavinova is 30+30 watts and I can't hear any nuances in what I'm playing below full whack and some of the lesser digitals don't even have that. This new one has 45+45 and another 45w soundboard transducer. __________________
Recording on my Clavinova is two 1/4" jacks from the line out onto a 1/8" stereo minijack into the PC and into Windows Sound Recorder or Audacity. I downloaded and tried a free MIDI recorder but the delay between what I played and what I heard suggested the signal bounces off the moon.
I have an old/ancient Fostex A8 8-track recorder and the foldback is audibly immediate.
I learnt a Scarlatti sonata once (when a drink had been spilled into my digital by a young visitor) without hearing it until after I'd memorised it and brought it up close to recital speed so I'm familiar with playing without hearing (handy practise for my old age) but digital MIDI recording is not for me.
The new Kawai records straight onto a flash drive in mp3 format. I play the piano in one room onto the stick, carefully carry the stick into the studio, being sure not to drop it, "stick" it into the PC, copy it onto the hard drive and voila! Robert's your mother's brother! Ready to send to Monica.
I had looked at this movement and found where it "started over" at measure 35, and was able to match up the measures, and identify the transition measures which in the beginning move from F to C, but in the end stay at F to F. But I couldn't identify anything as an actual theme, and especially not an A and a B. It just all seems like tweedly deedly to me, a bit more elaborate the second time through.
Progress Report: No major problems to this point (up to M24) at 70% of desired tempo. Phrasing, expression, pedal etc. has not been much of the equation yet. Although some work has been done on this.
So, I'm anxious to move along and here are more chords up to M31 (where I started to get lost in frustration.)
Speaking of tempo though ... this is common time, correct? 4 beats to a bar. Well then, desired recital tempo for me, will be 50-55 beats per minute. This is crazy slow for a metronome setting. And so, I need to double it up and count 8 clicks to a Bar. At least, that has been my strategy to date.
M25 is Am and Em, the same as M26 and M27 (it's twin, notewise).
The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.
I don't foresee a problem with the rest. Glad it's all going well.
Yes, this is common time, 4/4.
When you're trying to get the rhythm it's fine to to use one click per quaver (4/8) but once you have the rhythm revert to 4/4 so that the first beat takes the strong accent and the third the medium accent. Don't set yourself a target speed for the recital (do set yourself a target speed but not a deadline to achieve it).
Record at whatever tempo you're up to when the time comes. My score suggests 72 bpm but I've been working it up to 84 bpm at the climax. ___________________
Just as a heads up, Andy Platt has been given the green light for the Chopin Nocturne in E flat and I'm planning to record it, along with some other familiar pieces, as a celebration of my new DP, so whenever you're ready for that we're all up for it.
M25 is Am and Em, the same as M26 and M27 (it's twin, notewise).
Ooops. Yes, of course. I'm not sure how I was getting anything else, but all fixed now.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.
I was thinking Bm, but F is natural here ...
Originally Posted by zrtf90
When you're trying to get the rhythm it's fine to to use one click per quaver (4/8) but once you have the rhythm revert to 4/4 so that the first beat takes the strong accent and the third the medium accent. Don't set yourself a target speed for the recital (do set yourself a target speed but not a deadline to achieve it).
OK, good to know and glad I asked about. I'll be careful of this.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Just as a heads up, Andy Platt has been given the green light for the Chopin Nocturne in E flat and I'm planning to record it, along with some other familiar pieces, as a celebration of my new DP, so whenever you're ready for that we're all up for it.
How cool is that. Are we going to be having sort of like a Soiree once you have all your pieces recorded?
I'm ready and I'd say lets get going then.
I put the Waltzes ahead of the Nocturne. OP 64, No2 is progressing slowly, albeit nicely. My priority currently resides with Schubert and Mendelssohn in preparation for the recitals.
Nonetheless, I do still have the Nocturne on my radar and will be in much better shape for learning it after we have analyzed it. So, I will just do my best to keep up, and good to go now.
I was interested to understand his background better, so here is some briefing and full article is here
Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin, was born on 1 March 1810, according to the statements of the artist himself and his family, but according to his baptismal certificate, which was written several weeks after his birth, the date was 22 February. ... Chopin's father, Mikolaj (Nicolas) Chopin, a Polonized Frenchman ... He had been born in 1771 in Marainville in the province of Lorraine in France, but already as a child he had established contacts with the Polish families of Count Michal Pac and the manager of his estate, Jan Adam Weydlich. At the age of 16, Mikolaj accompanied them to Poland where he settled down permanently. He never returned to France and did not retain contacts with his French family but brought up his children as Poles. They had four children: three daughters Ludwika, Izabela and Emilia, and a son Fryderyk, the second child. Several months after his birth, the whole family moved to Warsaw...
The musical talent of Fryderyk became apparent extremely early on, and it was compared with the childhood genius of Mozart...The prodigy was featured in the Warsaw newspapers, and "little Chopin" became the attraction and ornament of receptions given in the aristocratic salons of the capital.
The young composer listened to and noted down the texts of folk songs, took part in peasant weddings and harvest festivities, danced, and played a folk instrument resembling a double bass with the village musicians; all of which he described in his letters. Chopin became well acquainted with the folk music of the Polish plains in its authentic form, with its distinct tonality, richness of rhythms and dance vigour. When composing his first mazurkas in 1825, as well as the later ones, he resorted to this source of inspiration which he kept in mind until the very end of his life.
Chopin, endowed by nature with magnificent melodic invention, ease of free improvisation and an inclination towards brilliant effects and perfect harmony, gained in Elsner's school a solid grounding, discipline, and precision of construction, as well as an understanding of the meaning and logic of each note...Chopin ended his education at the High School in 1829, and after the third year of his studies Elsner wrote in a report: "Chopin, Fryderyk, third year student, amazing talent, musical genius".
After completing his studies, Chopin planned a longer stay abroad to become acquainted with the musical life of Europe and to win fame. Up to then, he had never left Poland...Upon his return to Warsaw, Chopin, already free from student duties, devoted himself to composition and wrote, among other pieces, two Concertos for piano and orchestra: in F minor and E minor...This was also the period of the first nocturne, etudes, waltzes, mazurkas, and songs to words by Stefan Witwicki. During the last months prior to his planned longer stay abroad, Chopin gave a number of public performances, mainly in the National Theatre in Warsaw where the première of both concertos took place... Chopin left for Austria, with the intention of going on to Italy.
Several days after their arrival in Vienna, the two friends learnt about the outbreak of the uprising in Warsaw, against the subservience of the Kingdom of Poland to Russia and the presence of the Russian Tsar on the Polish throne. This was the beginning of a months-long Russo-Polish war...In low spirits and anxious about the fate of his country and family, he ceased planning the further course of his career.
Having given up his plans for a journey to Italy, due to the hostilities there against Austria, Chopin resolved to go to Paris...In the autumn of 1831 Chopin arrived in Paris where he met many fellow countrymen...In Paris, his reputation as an artist grew rapidly. Letters of recommendation which the composer brought from Vienna allowed him immediately to join the local musical milieu, which welcomed him cordially. Chopin became the friend of Liszt, Mendelssohn, Ferdinand Hiller, Berlioz and Auguste Franchomme...The ensuing success was enormous, and he quickly became a famous musician, renowned throughout Paris.
The most important source of Chopin's income in Paris was, however, from giving lessons. He became a popular teacher among the Polish and French aristocracy and Parisian salons were his favourite place for performances. As a pianist, Chopin was ranked among the greatest artists of his epoch, such as Kalkbrenner, Liszt, Thalberg and Herz, but, in contrast to them, he disliked public performances and appeared rarely and rather unwillingly.
On his return from Majorca in the spring of 1839, and following a convalescence in Marseilles, Chopin, still greatly weakened, moved to George Sand's manor house in Nohant, in central France. Here, he was to spend long vacations up to 1846, with the exception of 1840, returning to Paris only for the winters. This was the happiest, and the most productive, period in his life after he left his family home. The majority of his most outstanding and profound works were composed in Nohant.
On 17 October 1849, Chopin died of pulmonary tuberculosis in his Parisian flat in the Place Vendôme...He was buried in the Père-Lachaise cemetery in Paris. In accordance with his will, however, his heart, taken from his body after death, was brought by his sister to Warsaw where it was placed in an urn installed in a pillar of the Holy Cross church in Krakowskie Przedmiscie.
The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.
I was thinking Bm, but F is natural here ...
Forgive me, Bm7-5. My thinking is that I'm adding B, the dominant of E, for the change to E. I'm enjoying having you correct me!
If I thought of it as Dm6 I would probably hit D in the bass by mistake. __________________________
The idea of the recordings is twofold.
Firstly, folks on RST have expressed an interest in seeing pictures - seems strange to me for a production musical instrument as opposed to a unique hand made one but there we are. I thought a recording was more appropriate for an instrument.
Secondly, I've been on the forum almost a year now with nothing more to show for it than one recital, and it was a disappointing effort at that, so I figured a few recordings of pieces that I was more familiar with would make me feel better and a new piano is as good an excuse as any. ___________________________
The rest I agree with although I'd have used Bm7 rather Dm6.
I was thinking Bm, but F is natural here ...
Forgive me, Bm7-5. My thinking is that I'm adding B, the dominant of E, for the change to E. I'm enjoying having you correct me!
If I thought of it as Dm6 I would probably hit D in the bass by mistake.
Yes, I am enjoying it too . OK Bm7-5 works for me now and all fixed. I am still nervous about using -note notations when there are other alternatives without them. But, I had not been thinking of the progression to E, so this makes perfect sense now. As far as hitting the correct bass note ... I threw this logic out the window during the Moonlight Sonata. Perhaps I will resurrect it though. __________________________
Originally Posted by zrtf90
The idea of the recordings is twofold.
Firstly, folks on RST have expressed an interest in seeing pictures - seems strange to me for a production musical instrument as opposed to a unique hand made one but there we are. I thought a recording was more appropriate for an instrument.
Secondly, I've been on the forum almost a year now with nothing more to show for it than one recital, and it was a disappointing effort at that, so I figured a few recordings of pieces that I was more familiar with would make me feel better and a new piano is as good an excuse as any.
Splendid idea. I look forward to hearing and will watch for it. So, you better get busy.
Fryderyk Chopin - Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2
I will try not to jump too far ahead until everyone is ready to proceed. But, just to get things started with this Nocturne;
I see this as being in binary format:
A - M1 - M4
A - M5 - M8 (with lead note from M4)
B - M9 - M12 (with lead notes from M8)
A - M13 - M16
B - M17 - M20 (with lead notes from M16)
A - M21 - M24
C - M25 - M33 (coda)
So, three themes of which the coda is one and AABABAC format.
Also, here is another interpretation/performance. Personally, I prefer this understated expression of Artur, better. Although, I never mind watching Valentina
Fryderyk Chopin - Nocturne in E Flat Major, Op.9 No.2
The coda figure in the first measure, and then repeated -- Eb, three notes, G -- is like an inversion of the opening of the A section (ignoring the pickup note) -- G, three notes, Eb.
Chopin varies the melody in the A and B figures each time around, sometimes with slight changes of rhythm, sometimes with different fioritura-like passages.
Harmonically, there are places with V7-I sequences in various keys (but never so final as to be a cadence, except when in Eb), and an entire V7-vi-ii-V7-I progression that is repeated at the end of the B section, e.g. mm.12-13, first in Bb and then in Eb, but I wouldn't say the piece ever really changes key.
The first time I looked at a Chopin nocturne I couldn't find any pattern in it at all. Analysing this one, the AABABAC pattern jumped out pretty quickly. I wonder if I went back to whatever that first nocturne was, I would find a pattern. Oh, wait, I don't think it was a nocturne. I think it was the Prelude in C# minor, the famous one that's used in the movie The Pianist. Still, I'm wondering if I would find the patterns this time.
A prelude is nominally a harmonic progression and doesn't usually have a pattern.
I prefer to think of this nocturne as ABB form.
You have all the four bar phrases to M32 plus the last two measures but I see A as M1-8 and B as M9-16 and M17-25 with the coda at M25.
I don't see any section as being more difficult than the rest except the stretto in octaves in M30-32 and the timeless trill. I have the climax at the start of M24. The fioriture, trills and other ornaments will need careful practise so as not to dominate their surroundings by being uneven, struck too hard or losing clarity by being smudged.
There are four markings of Tempo primo so rubato is at work here but it's important to practise this with a metronome and make sure the speeding up and slowing down doesn't bring the basic rhythm into a distortion of itself.
There are some off beat accents to be observed (some not easy to spot, e.g. M16) and some very careful phrasing marks. We have clearly left the Baroque and entered a world where playing from the score needs acute awareness of the instructions and will benefit from detailed observation prior to the first visit to the bench.
Ha ha! So the harmonic analysis of a prelude would be of prime importance?
It wasn't when we did the Bach or the Chopin Preludes.
Unless I'm working out the chords in a rock song, and sometimes not even then, a harmonic analysis is always of lesser importance for me than a structural, thematic, melodic or rhythmic analysis. Unless the song is by The Beatles, Bob Dylan or similar it might be more important than a lyrical analysis.
I look for the key changes more than the chord changes. Only if it looks or sounds interesting do I investigate further.
Ha ha! So the harmonic analysis of a prelude would be of prime importance?
It wasn't when we did the Bach or the Chopin Preludes.
It was to me!
Quote
I look for the key changes more than the chord changes. Only if it looks or sounds interesting do I investigate further.
I can't tell if it looks interesting until after I've done the analysis. I can tell some very dramatic effects that sound interesting, but I can't hear much of other things that seems interesting unless I do the full analysis: for example I can't hear many key changes, and in any case for the effects I do hear and want to analyze, I then find I also want to analyze surrounding material, up to the whole thing, to see how this interesting sounding part is different from the other parts.
If I had not exhaustively analyzed all six of the Clementi sonatinas, with roman numerals and secondary dominants and multiple slash notation and everything, I would not be aware of the way that how Chopin deploys his chords is different from how Clementi deploys them.
Quote
structural, thematic, melodic or rhythmic analysis
All things that I could improve at! Think how different I would be if "harmonic analysis" had not been the first and only music theory course I've taken.
Just one more post on this one (well, as far as chords go at least.) May as well finish up though, as just a few remaining.
M32 - Am I just want to call this entire measure Am. It passes through Am6 Am7 and ends on Am6 ... so I'm happy with just Am . This is a tricky little area.
We have clearly left the Baroque and entered a world where playing from the score needs acute awareness of the instructions and will benefit from detailed observation prior to the first visit to the bench.
Exactly what we have this analysis thread for!
No idea what many of the terms are indicating:
Andante; Moderately Slow Tempo
espr. dolce; Expressive in a gentle, sweet manner
dolciss: ?
f; loud
p,pp,ppp; soft to very soft
Not sure of all the combinations: Ie: sfp (for this little phrase it is loud to soft?) mf: moderate forte?
simile: ?
sempre pp; ?
poco rit., poco rall., poco rubato; ?
a tempo; (speed up, slow down or does it just mean we can change tempo here?)
stretto; ?
con forza; ?
senza; ?
smorz.; ?
I'm sure there is much more, but this would cover this piece, I think.
Andante; Moderately Slow Tempo. Â Andante means "walking".
espr. dolce; Expressive in a gentle, sweet manner
dolciss: short for dolcissimo: very gentle and sweet
sfp: sforzando piano: sforzando stands for "subito forzando" which means "suddenly with force", that is, "make a sudden accent" Â "sfp" stands for "sforzando piano" which means "suddenly with force (or accented) and then soft immediately after."
mf: mezzo-forte: medium loud, between forte and piano
simile: in the same way, likewise. Â Â Continue the pattern established, for example in pedaling, or in staccato, etc.
sempre pp; sempre means "always" so sempre pianissimo means "always very soft" "continue very soft"
poco rit., poco rall., poco rubato; "poco" means "a little" so: poco ritardando: slow down a little poco rallentando: slow down a little poco rubato: with a little bit of rubato
a tempo; literally "at tempo". Â It means "return to the original tempo"
stretto; literally "narrow". Â Musical meaning as an expression mark is to go faster. Â (It's also a term for a section of a fugue where the statements overlap, but that's not its meaning here.)
con forza; with force
senza; without. Â In my score that seems to be part of the phrase "senza tempo" meaning "without time", that is play this passage freely rather than counted.
smorz.; smorzando: gradually slow down and get softer
slow for a metronome setting. And so, I need to double it up and count 8 clicks to a Bar. At least, that has been my strategy to date. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.ourchopin.com/images/b88.jpg)
The musical talent of Fryderyk became apparent extremely early on, and it was compared with the childhood genius of Mozart...The prodigy was featured in the Warsaw newspapers, and "little Chopin" became the attraction and ornament of receptions given in the aristocratic salons of the capital. 
