 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
70 members (36251, bcalvanese, brdwyguy, amc252, akse0435, 20/20 Vision, benkeys, apianostudent, 17 invisible),
2,123
guests, and
336
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90 |
That's my question in a nutshell  Do you have a certain way that you do it that you find effective? I just can't seem to find a way to really get it done. I don't know why I find it so difficult other than as a child taking lessons my teacher stressed keeping my eyes on the music and not watching my fingers or the keys. Although she taught me a lot, I didn't ever learn to memorize - it was never stressed. Actually, I don't remember ever even being asked to memorize music. I don't know if that hindered my ability to memorize or not - I just have no idea how to go about it and the times I have tried are haphazard at best and have resulted in, well, nothing really. I am a good sight reader and I am very dependent on seeing the music for playing. Any suggestions?
Last edited by heathermphotog; 03/22/13 07:40 AM.
~ Heather Knabe WMV247 “When you play, never mind who listens to you.†― Robert Schumann “The piano ain't got no wrong notes.†― Thelonious Monk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 75
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 75 |
I don't think reading music hinders memorizing , so long as you still actually memorize. So I play a measure or two, looking at the music notation, then look slightly above the paper ( so still not looking at keys or closing eyes as for me this means finger memory races ahead of the brain) and play while visualising the notation. The advantage of this is if you forget you can find your place in the music quickly.
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90 |
Thank you! That look to be extremely helpful! I read through the sections you suggested and they made a lot of sense.
~ Heather Knabe WMV247 “When you play, never mind who listens to you.†― Robert Schumann “The piano ain't got no wrong notes.†― Thelonious Monk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90 |
I just read this in Fundamentals of Piano Practice: Many good sight readers are poor memorizers and vice versa. This problem arises because good sight readers initially find little need to memorize and enjoy sight reading, so they end up practicing sight reading at the expense of memorizing. The more they sight read, the less memory they need, and the less they memorize, the worse memorizers they become, with the result that one day they wake up and conclude that they are unable to memorize. Of course, there are naturally "talented" readers who have genuine memory problems, but these comprise a negligibly small minority. Therefore, the difficulty of memorizing arises principally because of a psychological mental block built up over long periods of time. Good memorizers can experience the reverse problem; they can't sight read because they automatically memorize everything and rarely have a chance to practice reading. However, this is not a symmetric problem because practically all advanced pianists know how to memorize; therefore, poor memorizers also had the misfortune of never having acquired advanced technique; that is, the technical level of poor memorizers is generally lower than that of good memorizers.
The most difficult problem encountered by sight readers is the psychological problem of motivation. For these good readers, memorizing seems like a waste of time because they can quickly learn to play many pieces reasonably well by reading. They might even be able to play difficult pieces by using hand memory, and if they have a blackout, they can always refer back to the music in front of them. Therefore, they can manage without memorizing. After years of practicing piano this way, it becomes very difficult to learn how to memorize because the mind has become dependent on the score. Difficult pieces are impossible under this system, so they are avoided in favor of a large number of easier compositions. With this awareness of potential difficulties, let's try to work through a typical program for learning how to memorize. This is so me. This is what I must get beyond! Thanks, again, Lost Woods, for pointing me to this. Now ... to learn the best way to memorize for me. That is the question ...
~ Heather Knabe WMV247 “When you play, never mind who listens to you.†― Robert Schumann “The piano ain't got no wrong notes.†― Thelonious Monk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058 |
Hi, heathermphotog. There are some threads about this subject in PW. Check this: Memorization vs Sight reading
![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/full/8517.jpg) SoundCloud | Youtube
Self-taught since Dec2009
"Don't play what's there, play what's not there."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90
Full Member
|
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 90 |
Thanks - interesting reading. But I'm not really concerned with the merits of reading vs memorizing. I know the values of both. My daughter's teacher is already emphasizing both reading and memorizing for her (she's 7 and can do both already quite well). I see how much more she owns the music that she has memorized. And she'll just play it at any time she'd like, any place she's like. I just know that I can read well and what I'd like to be able to do is play when I do not have music in front of me (memorize). At this point I simply don't/can't do both - I don't know how, but I'd like to learn
~ Heather Knabe WMV247 “When you play, never mind who listens to you.†― Robert Schumann “The piano ain't got no wrong notes.†― Thelonious Monk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058 |
Thanks - interesting reading. (...) And she'll just play it at any time she'd like, any place she's like. (...) Me too! 
SoundCloud | Youtube
Self-taught since Dec2009
"Don't play what's there, play what's not there."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,377
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,377 |
There are tons of tips, here is one with some that I use: http://colorinmypiano.com/2010/03/02/12-tips-for-memorizing-piano-music/To summarize, try it on pieces you already can hum, or sing, or la-la-la through without the music in front of you. It might be something really simple, but if a person has never memorized anything, starting small and simple is a good thing. Perhaps find the first note and the key from the sheet music, then put the paper away and see how much you can play. Sounding out the notes is fine if you make a mistake. This is a memory exercise, not a playing exercise. If you absolutely can not find the notes after several tries, go ahead and look at the paper. Now perhaps visualize the sheet, sight readers are often strong at visual. Others might sing the note names, or chord progressions, or try and figure out some kind of pattern. Muscle memory is important, though for some it might be the least dependable. Still, keep the fingering consistent. Work at it. Most of us memorize bar by bar. Do it for a few minutes each day. Learn some more bars the next day. Don't always start the beginning. Mark off a few starting points on the sheet music and work from there the next day. For short pieces, a few short segments are the entire piece. If each segment takes a few days, a person will have it memorized in two or three weeks. After memorizing, keep playing it once per day at the end of practice for a while and then less often after that. That way you will keep it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048 |
There are loads of ways of doing this. As chance would have it I have just posted this in a PM. I hope the recipient will excuse my duplication. This is my (current) way. I analyse first and memorise the piece as music in my head. I know the piece from listening to professional performances and/or audiation before attempting it at the piano. At the piano I audiate from the score every day I practise a piece, the whole page of the passage I'm working on. I play through each section every day, hands separately or hands together (where I can do so without introducing errors), using the score. I take a fragment, small enough to hold in short term memory, work it every day until it's memorised hands separately. Then I put the score away and practise playing it hands together. (There's no need to put the score away but I find I'm better able to build the neural pathways if I force myself to recall the passage and have to go to lengths to refer back to the score. It helps hightlight what I've not truly memorised.) That's when my practice starts, that's when I start the timer. I stop when I've done it seven times correctly successively or fewer as my ability increases over the following days. (I don't use a timer, I reach objectives.) I go back to the score every day until I can play it hands separately at tempo or hands together at the tempo I intend to play it, with all the musical expression I can give it, three times successively each time I sit at the piano. Not three times on Tuesday, but three times every day for the rest of that week, before looking at the score. I then play it as part of a small section two or three times each day while I'm working on other parts of the piece or at weekends if I'm not. I still continue to audiate it and play it from the score at least once a week while I'm still working on that piece/page. _____________________ Here are some other sources. A compendium of practise methodsTips for memorisingETA: with apologies for duplicating Sand Tiger's link.
Last edited by zrtf90; 03/22/13 12:53 PM.
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,238 |
I analyse first and memorise the piece as music in my head. I know the piece from listening to professional performances and/or audiation before attempting it at the piano.
You've often mentioned that you audiate. Could you explain how far this takes you in 'knowing' how a piece you've not seen or heard before sounds.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,139
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,139 |
All this is great, as long as you know the piece before you start to memorize. I have many students who try to memorize from the beginning, and if you happen to make a mistake, and memorize the mistake, it's VERY hard to undo it.
I often use the term remember instead of memorize, because I think that's really what you're doing. You play it so many times, and as Richard says, try to really understand a piece, and you will start to remember chunks. It'll usually be a few sections where you pause and can't remember what the next part is. Knowing what key you're in and having a good grasp of what that means will help too.
When I have to memorize something quickly for a show, it's first grasping the material, understand it the best I can and then, repetition, repetition, repetition. The more I repeat something, the more I can remember it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678 |
I think that understanding the music and its structure plays a role. Say for the sake of simplicity that you have a simple piece in ABA form. You have a roadmap for A, B and A. Then within each section you have sub-structures. You can also take it apart and back together again. How are the chords progressing and why? What is the bass line doing? Is there a broad melodic outline that the other notes are weaving around? The more you have a road map and the more you understand facets of music, the more you can relate to and draw on. I think that is part of memorizing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,712
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,712 |
Hmm I just find that if I listen to a piece long enough I can remember enough of it to transfer to the keyboard.
I play by ear.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 207
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 207 |
Good memorizers can experience the reverse problem; they can't sight read because they automatically memorize everything and rarely have a chance to practice reading. However, this is not a symmetric problem because practically all advanced pianists know how to memorize; therefore, poor memorizers also had the misfortune of never having acquired advanced technique; that is, the technical level of poor memorizers is generally lower than that of good memorizers. This is so me. This is what I must get beyond! Thanks, again, Lost Woods, for pointing me to this. Now ... to learn the best way to memorize for me. That is the question ... I'm a memorizer. Obviously I can read music, but I read it, work out a measure or two, then I just know how to play it once I have done that. I don't really have a method, other than memorizing a few measures at a time and stacking them on top of each other. I can sight read very low level stuff, but I can memorize much more complicated pieces. I could sit down right now and play the first half of that Aladdin song (which is all I ever learned of it, and I guess it isn't all that complicated), and I haven't seen the music for it since Nov 2010. Or I could sit down and play the Raindrop Prelude in full (albeit poorly  point being I remember the notes) and it has been nearly a year and a half since I have seen the music. Perhaps this came about as a result of not having a teacher forcing me to sight read. I know how it should sound and I associate that to my hand movements. My theory is that because I played super nintendo alot when I was little, starting about age 4 or 5, I think my brain made solid neuronal connections with my fingers/hands while my brain was still developing, making for good tactile memory. But, who the heck really knows haha.
Nick
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048
4000 Post Club Member
|
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,048 |
You've often mentioned that you audiate. Could you explain how far this takes you in 'knowing' how a piece you've not seen or heard before sounds. It's sight-singing without the restriction on compass or number of voices or like sight-reading without the restriction of technical ability or speed. When the accidentals pile up and I'm outside my comfort zone I resort to picking out bits on a piano or guitar, whichever's handiest and suitable. I'm never surprised when I first actually hear a piece after this process even though there will often be richer orchestration but in Mendelssohn's SWW's, for instance, I audiated most of those from the score. I had a CD of them and I'd heard them before but never knew any well enough to recognise or have chosen one to learn, except Op. 30/3. I was targetting his Op. 72 first and knew those. If you do it often enough it's better than sight-reading at the piano though it frequently reduces the 'sound picture' to a simpler level but it's enough to recognise themes, melodies and chord movement and you can build the picture deeper over time. In full score I know what the trumpets and violas are doing but I'd have to go to the piano to know how they'd work against the violins. But I miss less when audiating because I look more closely at the score than when listening to a piece and I can catch smaller details or make better sense of what I see.
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 244
Full Member
|
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 244 |
My plan for attack is fundamentally only 2 steps but a considerable amount of detail could be added to each:
1) Learn the piece. 2) Memorize.
The reason I find this division helpful is having learned the piece and all of its patterns - sometimes described as the rhythmic line from beginning to end - produces a structure unto which hang all the smallest details and articulations of a performance. Otherwise it becomes a struggle to memorize many many tiny details in sequence out of thin air.
It sounds like the OP is a competent sight reader so unpacking step 2 further I draw heavily on the literature of human memory from other fields, including the important fact memory is something that can be practiced. For larger pieces I try to chunk it up into spatial memory (architecture being long a hobby of mine). Others' results may vary but there are lots of techniques to try and I have little doubt some will fit better than others. For tricker individual phrases, where fingering becomes an issue for one reason or another, I try to associate it with a lyric or other auditory mnemonic device matching the rhythmic drive of the phrase. (Radiohead lyrics being a favorite of mine.) Then it just becomes a matter of memorizing where the lyric lies in the larger structure.
Another oft overlooked aspect of human memory is that, much like the recording industry, garbage in, garbage out; and if one is distracted or feeling anxiety it tends to blur memory (see the literature for details). The trick, in my humble opinion, is to bring as much attention and focus to bare on the subject as possible in a relaxed calm environment, thus bringing the object into sharpest relief for the human brain to memorize.
Bad spellers of the world untie!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,588
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,588 |
For me it came natural after numerous hours of hard work slaving away at that bench. You feel me??
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 13
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 13 |
I memorize by shear repetition. I am not a very good sight reader at all. I learn a piece one bar at a time and I wont proceed to the next bar until the previous bar is perfect. You can probably imagine how long it takes me to learn a new piece. By the time I make it to the end of a piece, it is burned into my memory.
If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12 |
I think that understanding the music and its structure plays a role. Say for the sake of simplicity that you have a simple piece in ABA form. You have a roadmap for A, B and A. Then within each section you have sub-structures. You can also take it apart and back together again. How are the chords progressing and why? What is the bass line doing? Is there a broad melodic outline that the other notes are weaving around? The more you have a road map and the more you understand facets of music, the more you can relate to and draw on. I think that is part of memorizing. This. Look for repeating passages and those with similar structure.
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,391
Posts3,349,273
Members111,634
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
