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In my final post on the earlier Nocturne thread I thanked everyone for their constructive comments and indicated that I planned to re-record the Nocturne to, hopefully, take it up a notch.

Here's the new version.
http://youtu.be/Ydvmcsl4ePg

Although not perfect by any means, the newer version is, in my opinion, more satisfying and cohesive from a musical standpoint. Some here may feel that the middle section is taken a tad too fast.....but I think it still works.

Bottom line: There's always room for improvement - and it can sometimes take awhile for a piece to settle in.

Hi, Carey! I listened to this recording, then immediately went back to your original submission. Briefly put, I agree with your assessment that this performance is more "satisfying and cohesive". The entire narrative is presented with more conviction, and I got an improved sense of "listening to the resonances", which I think is especially important in this Nocturne. It just feels -- well, more centered, and sure of what it wants to say (or sing).

Personally, I agree with you on the speed of the middle section, and also the changeless dynamics. Though this may seem obvious, I do think that Chopin meant to evoke a hymn played on an organ, without register or volume changes. Jast as a matter of taste, I prefer this entire section softer, but only because I think that evokes in addition an element of the "remembrance of things past", and I can't honestly say that Chopin intended to project this poetic effect.

Thanks for sharing this!

Phil:

A very nice second effort. However, in my first comment on this piece, I referred to the concepts of harmonic tension, and elasticity.

Instead of trying to further explain what that means, I suggest listening to one of the world's greatest pianists' recording of this work.

He had an innate sense of time, but nothing he ever played was metronomic. However, he always kept your ear interested in what was to come next, in essence taking you on a musical journey.

Hey, and remember, in the final analysis, we are all supposed to be here to learn and improve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlOR-VkYXqY

Tim and Louis -

Thank you for listening and sharing your perspectives.

At least we all agree that my most recent effort is better than my first. So, if nothing else, I'm making progress.

How far I ultimately will be able to take my interpretation to the next level is up for grabs at this point. I'm learning a tremendous amount from this dialog (and from analyzing my own recording in relation to others), and I truly appreciate your perspectives.

As "exhibit b" I'd like to share this recording by another of the world's greatest pianists......Pollini. Note that Pollini's performance clocks in at around 5:20 compared to Arrau's at 7:18. Both performances are effective. (Mine is around 5:45.)

http://youtu.be/6rWi9oDGaxo

My dilemma with Arrau's approach (and I've listened to this recording many times in the past) is that although the harmonic tension and elasticity are present, the slowness of the interpretation bothers me. (Although I like his rendition of the middle section.) I'm somewhat literal in my approach to music making - which, perhaps, is why I've always found playing much of Chopin's music to be so challenging. I have trouble feeling the score the way Arrau seems to feel it - and for me to attempt to play it in a similar manner might only come across as awkward and artificial. He could pull it off - because he truly was a great artist. (I had the pleasure of hearing him perform towards the end of his career one Sunday afternoon in Carnegie Hall in 1970).

I personally am more in sinc with Pollini's approach to the Nocturne - which still is infinitely more nuanced than my own - but at least seems to have some forward momentum. I guess my point is that here we have two great artists - approaching the same work differently - yet each performance (IMO) is valid.

As for me - yes, I will continue to work on this piece - and strive for a bit more nuance and elasticity throughout.

Thanks guys -

Still looking for more sighing, yearning, panting.

I see the melody as a series of, well, what I just said.
Do you not?

If not, then of course forget what I said.
But if you do, then maybe play around with trying to get the utterances to be more like utterances -- really shaping the phrases-within-phrases, sometimes severely shaping them, like the opening figure (perhaps not that very first time it comes in, although I would, but at least thereafter), to make them sound like the desperate pantings that they perhaps are. You do it more than in the other performance, but not nearly how I see it.

But let's not lose sight of the bigger picture. I said that the other performance was very good. This one is too.
I just can't help giving my ideas when it comes to Chopin....

Mark - Perhaps the disconnect here is that I tend to think of the melodic line of this Nocturne in terms of LONG multi-measure phrases - rather than exaggerated utterances within phrases. I'm trying to interpret the piece as if I were singing it. Within that context, of course, I realize there still is room for a bit more subtlety, flexibility, nuance, etc. I'll get there eventually.......Thanks !!

P.S. I'm fine with the sighing and yearning......but I'm not quite so sure about the panting !!

If I were singing it, I'd absolutely sing it the way I said I'd play it -- if anything, more so, because it's not possible to do it as much on a keyboard as with the voice! Your post makes it seem like you consider singing to be ONLY long lines....

A couple of show-tune examples:

Maria (West Side Story)
Hey There (Pajama Game)

And something from other than show tunes:

Jesum von Nazareth (Bach, St. John Passion)

One more:

"My Way" sung by Sinatra; in fact, maybe just about anything Sinatra

O maybe most of all, look at the marked phrasing of the piece! I think you're playing it as though the phrasing were totally different, and as though many of the rests didn't exist.

Even when Chopin notates rests in the RH, in the majority of instances the LH carries through.......

Just curious - what do you think about this performance???

http://youtu.be/mxNUrtFyosc

Much more like what I'm talking about. (Some of it seems to get a bit 'big' for my taste, but that could be a function of what youtube does to dynamics.) And notice, BTW, the l.h. does carry through 'despite' the sub-phrasing of the melody. (What you said about that doesn't at all counter what I said.)

Who is it?

Phil:

First, I would describe this melody as "haunting." It seems to call out to one in pain.

In my Henle score, it pretty much breaks the melody into two one measure phrases followed by a finishing two measure phrase. The left hand seems to me to be a multi-measure harmonic response, as in call and response.

Neverthess, when I play through this, my ear tells me to milk it for all it is worth.

There is an extremely bad You Tube version of this out there that does this, but what the pianist fails to do is to keep it moving through the response action of the left hand.

In short, I would play it phrase marking by phrase marking, and when in doubt, ham it up like a hungarian folk tune.

Pollini.

OK - so back to the "rests." Trying to understand. Are you saying that the RH melody line should temporarily be "silent" when a rest is indicated?. In reality, I lift my finger off the key for the rest - but sometimes the tone sustains because I'm using the pedal.

There are several bad youtube versions of this out there....

Appreciate your perspective on the phrasing. Thanks.

Not necessarily. Many would say "yes," and I would make sure there's at least an instant of silence, but no, not necessarily. The rests are indications that there is SOME kind of 'break,' whether it's a silence, or a falling away of the sound (which is further emphasized by the indicated phrasing), or a combination. To me, the main thing is, just what I said before: The subphrase is a "sigh." And, you know how to sigh, right?
I would do a 'combination': a dying away of the sound, and at least an instant of silence.

At least the sound needs to die down, as though you're out of breath. If you can do that without any silence, great. But IMO you've got to do something like that, or else you're missing the extraordinary thing about this piece and the extraordinary pains Chopin took to indicate the expressiveness. I know that you think you're doing something that corresponds to the score, but IMO if Chopin meant what you're doing, he wouldn't have indicated short phrases as he did, and he wouldn't have put in such pronounced rests.

BTW I'm hearing Pollini next month in NY, and looking forward to it greatly, especially since someone did a post last year announcing his supposed passing.

Phil:

Bingo! Listen to the man.

Thanks -- and I agreed with your post too.

Now that you put it THIS WAY - it makes sense. I'll give it a try...although I must admit I really really need to take a break from this Nocturne for awhile.

Enjoy Pollini !!

We do too.

Just kidding.
I can't get enough of it.


The main thing I'm looking forward to getting from it is satisfying an intense curiosity I've had for a long time. Y'know, he has this 'reputation' in many circles, a somewhat disdainful one, and I'm dying to know how accurate it is. What I suspect is that the popular criticisms are exaggerated but fairly true. And BTW I didn't love his recording of this nocturne that you posted; it sounded to me like someone who knows what are the right things to do and is doing them impressively well, but not completely consistently, and who doesn't put forth a great overall concept of the piece and its proportions. Don't get me wrong -- I'd kill (metaphorically speaking) to have an ounce of his fingers and musicianship.

carey, great playing! I enjoyed listening to it.
This is a better performance compared to your first recording.

Here are a few thoughts:

Would you give it a try playing the grace notes in the first bar and the few bars following, ON the beat ?

The choral part is a bit fast. Would you consider a slower, darker mood, like a hymn for that part?

IMO, since there are so many possibilities, this is a nocturne that is difficult to play in a way that could please all of the listeners.

That said, your version is as good as any other version in its own terms.

Hakki - I realize that's an option, and have heard it done in some recordings. I'm just wondering.......is there some specific 19th century performance practice that would justify doing this - or do you think it is a matter of personal preference ???



I've tried it so many different ways now. Yes - I do feel it really should be a bit slower and softer. It's all a matter of control.



Apparently so.......



I needed that. Thanks !!

In 2002, I started practicing again after having done very little playing for 25 years. I set a goal of trying to learn and record works of "medium" difficulty to the best of my ability....hoping that over time I might be able to work back up to more challenging repertoire. I've been enjoying the journey - but who would've guessed that this seemingly simple little Nocturne would be so challenging from an interpretive standpoint!!

No, it is not a personal preference.
In fact I used to play it like you, until I saw the clear remark on the recent Polish National Edition that says, in bars 1,5 and 6 (and analog) they should be played on the beat.

After giving it a try, I liked it much more and will definitely play it like that from now on.