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Starr Keys,

Yes it's true, I have pretty high expectations so what I call "really low" may be perfectly adequate for many.

>Also, I find his attitude in this post and previous ones to vie dangerously close to the mindset critiqued in this article in the Oxford Press

I don't quite follow you here. Which previous posts? And what's the mindset of that article?

Wouter, I hardly believe that even you could have had adequate time to read and reflect on the content of the article since I posted it. When show me evidence you have, I'll take the time to go back over your posts based on the general sense that the emotion I had reading your new one evoked of memories of similar reactions I had to reading your posts in the past.

I've been watching this thread with great interest as I've long been a fan of autodidacticism and am always in favour of encouraging other students whom are perhaps not in a position to have a teacher. I see both sides of the argument and feel in my own life there are some very strong - abet specific - reasons I'd love to have a teacher. I'm mature enough to know I bring more self-motivation and work ethic than average, but that said, as a general rule of thumb, sans the "low target" quip, I agree with wouter79 and would be confident making predictions on others' chances of success on similar grounds.



As for Starr Key's persistence in reading the article, I did read it and unfortunately could find little connection to the subject at hand. The whole economic angel completely lost me. Reflecting on the article at hand - with such memorable quotes as above - gave me the impression this distinguished Oxford lecturer was desirous of letting the world know how awesome he was for liking classical music. And while I do agree with one of the articles' premises, that classical music is objectively more complex (and I do like classical music), the threshold of me caring what on earth people whom I've never met before think of me liking classical is so so much lower.

That said, hopefully the OP has found the thread useful. I will try to bullet point my personal pros and cons of teachers later. Good luck.

I am only persistent in having Wouter read the article, as he has a habit of firing questions at you that demand time and persistence to answer, and I wanted him to know how it felt. I will explain the connection.

Leaving the economic and political angles aside, the latter which, in addition to religion, I'm told we should avoid speaking about around here, the connection is between the "perfectionist" agenda of the author in insisting that the value of certain kinds of music and its academy pedagogy has a higher value to all of us than other kinds of music and the people who think this is elitist crap. Not entirely unlike Wouter's, is that his expectations for acquiring the skill to play that music very well should represent an absolute value for the highest achievement in the relationship between music and the individual.

While the precision skills that Wouter must acquire for playing Hyden and Mozart to his expectations may not be worthless to someone to whose soul Indie Rock speaks or who wants to learn to shape a melodic line in their accompaniment so that their vocal can be different from the original or other covers of a song, or even someone who wants to lose themselves in the time and place evoked by a Renaissance ronde, they may be superfluous or even useless if they don't discover how to translate something one can't get from a teacher in the process, which I would call "the expectation of joy". Combine this with the sense of achievement for having done it all on one's own and finding people who can appreciate what one has done, I call that valuable.

There is another mode of learning the piano as an adult: primarily self-directed playing companioned with the occasional weeklong residential course to guide and spur one along.

There has been plenty of favorable PW discussion about the effectiveness of such retreats. Here are 3 I am aware of: each program is located in a lovely rural New England setting, each program is small, and each welcomes the adult beginner or early-intermediate player wholeheartedly and without audition. Their durations are 5-10 days, and their costs are similar.

www.summerkeys.com in Maine
www.sonatina.com in Vermont
www.pianoretreat.wordpress.com in Massachusetts

I have good vibes about the first two programs, and they each offer several retreats per year. By contrast, the last-listed workshop is confined to one week only. As many of you know, I am a teacher and codirector of this one, the Midsummer Adult Piano Retreat on the campus of Williams College in Willimastown, MA. My fellow teachers/directors are Alison Barr and Debi Fishbein Adams, each a well-regarded independent teacher in the Boston area.

This July will be our 8th annual workshop, and PW has had a hand in our success.

Hello, Wouter,
You are very lucky indeed to have a good teacher;
unfortunately I have not had such luck
and I have to do the best I can do by learning on my own.
Of course I am aware that that it might take me much longer
but I do hope I have a chance and succeed.
I wish you all the best from Kristina.

Thank you again, Starr Keys for your kind encouragement
and for the details of the course “Learn and Master Piano”
and the slim booklet, it is very much appreciated.
Best wishes from Kristina.

Thank you, Peter K. Mose for the information
on the programs you mention, unfortunately I am not aware
of such Programs here in the UK
and it is not possible for me to travel.

Thanks for letting me know, kind regards from Kristina.

Kristina, forgive me for not knowing about similar programs in Britain, but they do exist. You could have a blast attending one, and they might even offer scholarships.

You are correct that it is difficult to find a teacher who works well with adult learners. They tend to be less well known than successful piano teachers of kids. Don't give up looking, but also don't settle for someone who is not right for you.

Kind regards,
Peter

Ah. And therein lies your first mistake. The topics of other threads don't always interest me and thus I rarely enter as it's only fair to let those who do wish to participate their freedom to enjoy the topic. This topic piqued my interest, therefore my exposure to Wouter is restricted to this narrow slice, which, in this case, I happen to agree with, putting you, I'm afraid, on the other side of this argument.


Uh? Hello? That was like +75% of a long article. Why did you post it then? If you have a point to make, please make it clearly and concisely. I'm busy practicing piano.



Ah, the argument to the transcendental: There is something about music that is so special, so inexpressible, that it defies to be taught. Perhaps it's my hard-nosed pragmatism but here I think your point unravels. The obligation is on yourself to prove this quality exists, not myself to prove its non-existence. However, my main question, is that if this quality is so special it can't be taught, doesn't this make it a poor candidate to be learnt in the first place? In fact, extending the argument further, doesn't its mere intangibility limit the idea's very communication?

I find myself surprised at taking this position as normally I'm rather sacrilegious when it comes to the need of one having a teacher because the fact remains the piano is a physical object. And things about the piano can be communicated, and thus learnt, and thus even taught. I'm unsure what brought Starry Keys to such a low opinion of teachers but I think the statement "the things that can't be taught about music" is false. I think the history of music - and even this forum - are filled with amazing teachers ready to guide willing students to musical nirvana. It can be taught.

[A note on why it's important to accept everything about music can be taught (except perhaps a love of practicing): Beyond the physical nature of the instrument, I find it difficult to believe one could ever ask the correct questions to improve one's playing while reasoning there is something supernatural and intangible involved.]



The above quote is as good a point as any to introduce a fundamental idea I use in learning the piano: One doesn't do it alone. Not in the slightest. Best to accept that all ideas come from somewhere. I am at peace with myself when I accept that while I do not have a weekly teacher - I actually have many teachers! I think of all the musical history books I've read, posts of teachers on PW, masterclasses watched, piano camps attended, have all contributed to a respectable piano education in my opinion. The real trick is seeing the value in utilizing many teachers, not just one. One should never love their theories and if I didn't feel this path was working - was no longer bringing results - I would be the first to toss it. On a final note, I do agree in a sense of achievement, but it's not from doing it alone. I am my own worse enemy. I'm happy to have simply beat the odds by drawing upon my own well of hard work and effort.

I think you and I have interpreted the article differently, but I don't think the reason is that 75% of it is about economics and politics. These were not the main thrust of the the editorial thesis but part of a set of examples of how imposing values based on Utopian idealism associated with an art form can lead to the imposition of those values on others in every institution, artistic, academic, religious, economic and political. This is not a new argument (nor haven't examples been drawn from culture and classical music before, Nazi Germany and its use of Wagner is one good example.), so I don't think it's necessary to understand the analysis applied in detail to every example in the article to get its point.




I was not talking about anything transcendental or mystical when I referred to the thing that can't be learned. I was talking about an enthusiasm, an deep instinctual response to certain types of music that can obsess or possess one enough to develop the thing that both you and I agree can't be guaranteed one will develop with a teacher, the love of practice. I know because I haven't gotten it from any private teacher, and there have been several attempts, both imposed on me by others and self-imposed at doing so. So, I'm not arguing that music can't be taught, but stating that it doesn't matter if the way it's taught and the content of what is taught doesn't develop this love of practice.

I did get it from my attempt to translate ideas I gathered and applied and compared and extrapolated from online discussions "on my own" in attempt to play the kind of music I wanted to play the way I wanted to play it. Sure, of course no one does it all on their own, we'd be wild animals without exposure to language and culture, but that doesn't mean that there aren't differences in our relationship to language and culture that can't render us free agents (freedom of course being a relative term allowing us autonomy to choose between more than one course of action that suits us better as individuals) or slaves.

One can respond more profoundly to one art form than another, for other reasons than it being god-inspired--nurture, nature, you name it. It was the author of the book who made this argument for his art form's superiority and devotion to it being based in its spiritual and transcendental potential, not mine. And sure one can be educated to respond more appreciatively to an art form than one necessarily would by temperament or background, but that doesn't negate the value of a deep response to something over something else nor take away from the beauty or power that one experiences or the impulse to possess it in the form of what is responded to. Nor do all the music appreciation lessons and good intentioned teachers guarantee that that person will value it enough to do what is involved in mastering it. There are plenty of students of piano teachers who after years of lessons can't play as well as self taught students, or worse, don't play well at all.

In my experience, the early enthusiasm of my response carried me much further and provided a lot more focus and attention than lessons did, the kind of focus and attention that enabled me to develop a process which if I didn't do anything but read these boards I know is very different from the way many people go about pursuing their musical goals, but one that's kept me practicing and motivated and brought not only me joy, but some of those around me. Like you, I feel I've beat the odds by drawing on my own hard work and effort.

StarrKeys hit it right. Can't teach enthusiasm, passion, or joy. A teacher can show a student certain things, hoping to ignite passion, or bring joy, or motivate a student more, but it may or may not happen.

As for the original topic, the 2012 survey has about half currently taking lessons, and about half never ever having lessons.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1926827/1.html

I'd say that dooming half the forum is quite the broad stroke. Some of the half without teachers play very well, at a high amateur level. While that half may not reach the goals set by some, many will achieve and surpass their own lofty goals.

Ok. Looks promising. I like complicated things but can't read this all this tonight. As a way of a rebuttal please see my orignal post which I think some simple ideas were missed. And I, on the other hand, promise to read an equivalent amount of text in this great book I'm reading.