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#2055195 - 03/27/13 04:28 PM Shorthand Note-tying
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
I've been putting some music into Finale (the music notation software), and have encountered a little hiccup. The piece is in 6/8, and starts in the bass clef with three eight notes. I want to tie each eight note as it is played to three dotted quarters starting on beat 4. Here's an example of what I put in:

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb383/didyougethathing/Example_zps33a8b1f7.jpg

(Finale won't let me tie them the way I want to)

What I want to avoid is doing in the proper way, meaning the first note is a dotted quarter tied, the second note is a quarter tied, and the third is an eight note tied. I just don't want to deal with all the rests and the messiness of it. Now obviously this is all my opinion on what I want it to look like.

So my question is, is it "allowed" to just tie the three eight notes like in the picture? I know I've seen this style of notation in pieces, and I consider it a more shorthand way of doing it. Or am I speaking blasphemy? confused


Edited by didyougethathing (03/27/13 04:29 PM)

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#2055199 - 03/27/13 04:29 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
You'll have to use the 'extra tools' or however they're called and extend the ties to connect with the notes of the chord. Bingo! You're done!
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2055203 - 03/27/13 04:32 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: Nikolas]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
Thanks! I was looking for something like that in the index but couldn't find it. I'll check it out! But how about my other question, is it proper to tie notes like that?

Edit: Found it! But it won't play them tied during playback. frown

But still, at least it's notated the way I want.


Edited by didyougethathing (03/27/13 04:36 PM)

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#2055226 - 03/27/13 05:22 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
Two more comments:

1. Finale, no matter how they want it, is still software for notation. As such you shouldn't care too much about playback and rely on your inner ear and your experience as a musician.

2. It is proper to tie them like that. It gives the right impression and it's very clear on what you want to do. Even if 'mathematically' it doesn't stand, the alternative would be much more complicated, as you said yourself! smile

Good luck.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2055297 - 03/27/13 07:34 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Here's how I notated something similar in Mozart the Music Processor:



I grabbed the image from the editing screen. The printed version loses the green arrow symbols and all the gray bits are black.

-Andy

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#2055338 - 03/27/13 09:02 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: Nikolas]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Two more comments:

1. Finale, no matter how they want it, is still software for notation. As such you shouldn't care too much about playback and rely on your inner ear and your experience as a musician.



Of course! I play the piece as I am writing it, and then play it again and again. For some strange reason though, I like listening to the midi playback after I put it all in Finale.

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#2055438 - 03/28/13 01:34 AM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
Andy, yes your version is the academically correct one, but it's so complicated to look, see? It's just difficult to read like that, I think...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2055489 - 03/28/13 05:49 AM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: Nikolas]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7896
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Andy, yes your version is the academically correct one, but it's so complicated to look, see? It's just difficult to read like that, I think...


It may be visually more complex, but if I were reading the piece, it would make more sense to me, and more quickly, than the other "shorthand" version.

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#2055537 - 03/28/13 09:13 AM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: wr]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Andy, yes your version is the academically correct one, but it's so complicated to look, see? It's just difficult to read like that, I think...


It may be visually more complex, but if I were reading the piece, it would make more sense to me, and more quickly, than the other "shorthand" version.

I'm with you. I wouldn't really know what the copyist had in mind with the other version, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen a shortcut like that in a printed score.

Mozart is very strict about rhythm notation: it doesn't allow rhythmically incorrect measures. That can be frustrating at first as you have to figure out how to insert, move and remove notes, but in the end it leaves you with clean and (to me) readable copy. As a bonus, it always plays back correctly. Some features that appeared in the last couple of versions make it possible to make musically-satisfying playbacks, too, but I've never spent the time it takes to add all the queues needed for that.

-Andy


Edited by AndyJ (03/28/13 10:40 AM)
Edit Reason: "doesn't allow rhythmically incorrect measures", not "notes"

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#2055792 - 03/28/13 05:20 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: AndyJ]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: AndyJ
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Andy, yes your version is the academically correct one, but it's so complicated to look, see? It's just difficult to read like that, I think...


It may be visually more complex, but if I were reading the piece, it would make more sense to me, and more quickly, than the other "shorthand" version.

I'm with you. I wouldn't really know what the copyist had in mind with the other version, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen a shortcut like that in a printed score.

Mozart is very strict about rhythm notation: it doesn't allow rhythmically incorrect measures. That can be frustrating at first as you have to figure out how to insert, move and remove notes, but in the end it leaves you with clean and (to me) readable copy. As a bonus, it always plays back correctly. Some features that appeared in the last couple of versions make it possible to make musically-satisfying playbacks, too, but I've never spent the time it takes to add all the queues needed for that.

-Andy


I agree with both Andyj and wr, as your way will be accepted among musicians better.
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2055821 - 03/28/13 06:31 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
Ok, so what if you have, say... 7 notes (in both hands, or even with one hand held with the sustain pedal)? Would you still go the 7 layers way?

I'm quite curious, cause I've seen the 'shorthand' way in scores that are not impossible, weird, or badly edited/notated...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2055824 - 03/28/13 06:36 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: Nikolas]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Ok, so what if you have, say... 7 notes (in both hands, or even with one hand held with the sustain pedal)? Would you still go the 7 layers way?

I'm quite curious, cause I've seen the 'shorthand' way in scores that are not impossible, weird, or badly edited/notated...

I'd notate that as a rolled chord. :-)

-Andy

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#2055828 - 03/28/13 06:39 PM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
So what's the difference between a three (or 4) note chord rolled, or as notated in the previous page of the thread? A rolled chord for me (arpeggiato) implies to be played rather fast, while the initial idea is very exact in the timing it offers, I think... :-/

Again, I will repeat that I'm not challenging you in any way. Just trying to see what's 'right' and 'wrong' and what's the most usual way to do things. Unfortunately I'm not in the studo to provide score examples... :-/
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2056046 - 03/29/13 06:27 AM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: didyougethathing]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7896
My problem with the shorthand version in the graphic in the first post isn't really so much about the note values as the fact that the intended ties don't go from note-head to note-head.

To me, the way it should look if you are going to do shorthand is how Ravel does it in Gaspard, for example. Take a look at how he ties the upper two notes of the final arpeggio in Scarbo. That makes sense to me. Sorry, I don't have a graphic of it handy to show you, but the ties really do connect the note-heads, and he doesn't adjust the note values to be "correct".

For another example of how to do this sort of thing, in the "introduction" section of this piece by Alkan, he uses correct note values, but all the implied rests are left out. Although visually cluttered, it is still fairly easy to read, and there's not much question about exactly what he wanted from the performer.

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#2056168 - 03/29/13 11:13 AM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: wr]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: wr
For another example of how to do this sort of thing, in the "introduction" section of this piece by Alkan, he uses correct note values, but all the implied rests are left out. Although visually cluttered, it is still fairly easy to read, and there's not much question about exactly what he wanted from the performer.


I think the Alkan score does it exactly right, and I don't think any implied rests are missing. I'm going to try that approach in the bar of my arrangement I posted above.

I think notation should be unambiguous; if you want the performer to hold a note for two eighths, you should have a quarter note or tied shorter notes that add up to that value.

On the other hand, I agree with you that nobody would misunderstand Ravel's meaning in the last two bars of Gaspard de la Nuit:



-Andy

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#2056815 - 03/30/13 11:29 AM Re: Shorthand Note-tying [Re: AndyJ]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: AndyJ
Originally Posted By: wr
For another example of how to do this sort of thing, in the "introduction" section of this piece by Alkan, he uses correct note values, but all the implied rests are left out. Although visually cluttered, it is still fairly easy to read, and there's not much question about exactly what he wanted from the performer.


I think the Alkan score does it exactly right, and I don't think any implied rests are missing. I'm going to try that approach in the bar of my arrangement I posted above....

All right, I've recast the bit I mentioned above. Here's how it was:


And here's my revision:


I was never happy with the cluttered look of the first version. I think following the example in wr's post of the Alkan piece makes it clearer.

I learned how to make Mozart display all the "strands" in black, so the second image looks the way this would look when printed.

-Andy

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