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#2055866 - 03/28/13 08:35 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 179
Loc: LA, USA
@SBP: I am from Europe with decimal system meter, centimeter... and gallon, yard, mile, inche ... are always my headache, it's hard for old dogs play new tricks :), I am not sure that "'" stands for foot or inche but I will buy a 45 foot piano if it exists, smile.

@spanishbuddha: as I see you are from UK, so you know well that in Europe we live on top of each other, especially in cities. Do you mean that people living in cities should forget the dream of playing on real acoustic piano?

I lived in France and bought real acoustic piano because:

- It sounds better, no speaker in the world with a reasonable price can reproduce the sound quality of a relatively good piano: in France, I had a W Hoffman made in W Germany in 1988. In USA I have a so-so audio system: Magnepan speakers, Denon receiver (real audiophyle should have pre-amp + amp, not receiver), Monster cables, and some "high-end" cable... and this so-so system already cost me nearly US$ 6000. However when I play CD, the system can not reproduce the sound quality I hear from a real piano, if I pump up 3, 4 times budget for the audio system then there will be some differences, but the hookup of the digital piano to the sound system will be a nightmare and suck some more money.

- The touch: My wife teaches piano, so we usually help students choose there digital pianos, with prices varies from US$300 to US$1300, and no digital piano in this price range give a satisfying touch, sound as a real acoustic one.

My "suggestion-solution" allows having a quiet environment for both our family members and neighbors (in big cities). When we need a real, splendid sound from a real then just pull out the panel (pillows and blanket are optional accessories to panel). I did make a calculation, evaluation and this option is the most economic to have a good sound, and good touch.

To have good thing with a constraint then we have to make some sacrifies, bear some burdens. However, if we don't expect much from sound and touch then digital pianos are the way to go.

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#2055880 - 03/28/13 09:04 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: hoola]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 258
Originally Posted By: hoola
@SBP: I am from Europe with decimal system meter, centimeter... and gallon, yard, mile, inche ... are always my headache, it's hard for old dogs play new tricks :), I am not sure that "'" stands for foot or inche but I will buy a 45 foot piano if it exists, smile.

Yeah, the unit conversions are incredibly irritating. I wouldn't mind if we all just switched to metric and get it all over with. Measuring the size of something based on some guy's foot is kinda absurd :P For the record, "=inches, and '=feet.

IIRC, there was this one crazy guy who was obsessed with finding the largest upright piano ever because he just had to have ground shaking bass and couldn't afford a Fazioli. He started out with a 56" upright, albeit one that couldn't hold a tune. :|
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

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#2055900 - 03/28/13 10:09 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 554
The Klavin 370 "upright" is 145.669"...

_________________________
http://DulceLabs.com
Sound, Video, Design

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#2055907 - 03/28/13 10:19 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1536
Loc: Danville, California
The KLAVIN upright??

Did Cliff get into the piano business now??



Edited by Furtwangler (03/28/13 10:20 PM)

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#2055920 - 03/28/13 10:49 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: hoola]
bearmom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 14
This is certainly very helpful. Thank you!
Do you by chance have pictures of the triangles?
Originally Posted By: hoola
Hello,
I'm with you, and I'm also with your neighbor because I understand perfectly how frustrated our neighbors are when hearing noise from others.

Let me develop the picture of noise frustration I gave to my neighbors before.

I lived in a 5th floor apartment of 12 floor apartment building in Paris, France; and one day I met someone living in 10 floor complaining about my 45' upright piano, she was friendly and polite, so I asked her to allow me to come to her apartment to hear what she heard, then I asked my friend to play my piano when I was in the frustrated lady's apartment. Result: The sound is audible from the 10 th floor because the concret transmitted sounds very far.

What I did to fix problem:
1/ Put piano on thick carpet.
2/ Create a soundproof panel to put behind the soundboard:
- Go to shop similar to Home Depot to buy wood to make a frame and soundproof material (in France it was foam-like sheet, in USA I found soundproof panel in Home Depot, or Lowes), then I nailed the panel to the frame.
- I fabricated 4 triangle shapes from wood.
- Put some pillows or blanket between the soundboard and my soundproof panel.
- Push the 4 triangle shapes between the wall and the soundproof panel. The triangle shapes will allow you to push tightly the soundproof panel agaisnt the back of your piano (other shapes do not).
(note: If not, you have to nail the panel to the back of the piano, this is not good because it damages the piano and not easy to take out the panel)

This solution is the best I can find, it mutes at least 80% noise (if it's too much then don't use pillow, blanket). And the carpet is the "must" if you live in a concret building because concret can transmit noise very far.

We play piano, others don't, and the noise of a piano especially when we practice is very terrible to others, much more than we can imagine (when I was a teenager, I practiced guitar, playing scale up and down, I drove my young brother nut and we had a very goodfight with punches, even we were only 2 boys in the house and we love each other, so don't let our neighbor shoot at us when they get mad and out of control)

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#2055922 - 03/28/13 10:51 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
bearmom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 14
yeah, for people like me who can't afford a SFH but dream to have a real piano, it seems reasonable to have an acoustic piano in a condo
frown

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#2055997 - 03/29/13 01:51 AM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
Hi bearmom, congrats on the K3. I like how uprights have a lower music desk that makes it easier for youngsters to read music (like they are supposed to).

If you do not find the volume offensive, and no other neightbors below or above are complaining, and you don't want to threaten the old lady next door, then here's my advice... learn to ignore her banging. I used to live close to a metal parts machining factoring and that kind of banging is way loud; but I still learned how to take naps through all that.

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#2056026 - 03/29/13 03:20 AM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 179
Loc: LA, USA
Dear bearmom (I love bear smile )

I can not give you pictures of triangle, but I can describe it easily.

Remember that what I describe here is only concepts, and you don't need to do exactly same things, a so-so implementation of the concept will be very OK.

Imagine that the distance between the panel and the wall is 2 inches.

Then you do yourself 4 pieces of triangle from woods with these dimensions:

- 3 angles A (90 degrees), B(70 degrees), C (20 degrees)
or
A (90 degrees), B(65 degrees), C (25 degrees).
Note: These angles don't need to be exact, the bigger angle B is, the easier the triangle stay in place.

- 3 sides:

* side (c) (opposite of angle C): when the distance between the panel and the wall is 2 inches, then side (c) should be bigger than 2 inches => 2.5 to 3 inches is OK.

* side (a) (opposite of angle A) and side (b) (opposite of angle B): you just need to draw on paper: side (c) = 3 inches, draw angle B = 65 degrees then use pencil to draw line (a) from angle B to cut side (b). Then map that pattern to the wood to cut the woods.

* side (d): thickness of the triangle: 1 inche is OK.

Then you just need to push the triangles into the gap between the wall and the panel, 2 upper, 2 lower, with longer side (b) against the wall, the longest side (a) against the panel, side (c) is where you push the triangle into the gap between the wall and the panel.

The triangles between wall and panel will keep the panel against the back of the piano, and noise will be contained inside the panel (better noise isolation material will be better, if you use bad material then you can put pillows, blanket between the panel and the soundboard)

Note: this sounds complicated but it's simple and this solution:
- causes no harm to the piano
- easy to mount and unmount.
- you can play piano with original timbre (a muffler with felt between strings and hammers sound bad, and bad touch).

If you use wood-based panel from Home Depot or Lowes then you can paint it to avoid wood powder fall out (I did this panel twice in US, for my wife's upright and my friend)




Edited by hoola (03/29/13 03:29 AM)

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#2056049 - 03/29/13 06:37 AM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Did someone say something about a really big upright piano?

For only $90,000+ you can own this piano.

_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#2056060 - 03/29/13 07:17 AM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: hoola]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2395
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: hoola


@spanishbuddha: as I see you are from UK, so you know well that in Europe we live on top of each other, especially in cities. Do you mean that people living in cities should forget the dream of playing on real acoustic piano?

I lived in France and bought real acoustic piano because:

- It sounds better, no speaker in the world with a reasonable price can reproduce the sound quality of a relatively good piano: in France,

- The touch: My wife teaches piano, so we usually help students choose there digital pianos, with prices varies from US$300 to US$1300, and no digital piano in this price range give a satisfying touch, sound as a real acoustic one.


OK, you didn't read my post, or missed my point. I said keep the piano.

But it just doesn't make sense, to me, to have an acoustic and then 'kill' it with pillows, blankets, felt, and so on.

I don't completely agree with the your point about touch on digitals. Many high end digitals are now close, some would say better, than an acoustic key action, especially compared to an upright. But anyway there are the hybrids as someone else pointed out.

So my compromise is to have both. But don't muffle the piano, just play it within reasonable hours and periods. Use the DP for practise, scales, arpeggios, endless repeated bars, phrases, with missed notes, pauses, errors - that's not music, just torture, and I would be banging on the wall, or more smile




Edited by spanishbuddha (03/29/13 09:55 AM)

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#2056222 - 03/29/13 12:27 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: BDB]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 588
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: BDB
You need a lawyer, not soundproofing.

No, you need a hitman.
And if he did a good job of getting rid of your neighbour, send him to me. I have two neighbours who complained about my piano playing. wink grin laugh

Just kidding. But seriously, I'd say that there is no point in reasoning with a crazy person. Give them the little finger, and they'll want the whole hand.
My advice would be: Don't soundproof your piano. Maybe you can soundproof the wall where your neighbour bangs, so you don't hear her.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2056283 - 03/29/13 02:25 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: gnuboi]
bearmom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 14
Thank you!

Originally Posted By: gnuboi
Hi bearmom, congrats on the K3. I like how uprights have a lower music desk that makes it easier for youngsters to read music (like they are supposed to).

If you do not find the volume offensive, and no other neightbors below or above are complaining, and you don't want to threaten the old lady next door, then here's my advice... learn to ignore her banging. I used to live close to a metal parts machining factoring and that kind of banging is way loud; but I still learned how to take naps through all that.

Top
#2056285 - 03/29/13 02:26 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: hoola]
bearmom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 14
I love bears too, especially polar bears.

Thank you very much for the detailed description, very helpful!



Originally Posted By: hoola
Dear bearmom (I love bear smile )

I can not give you pictures of triangle, but I can describe it easily.

Remember that what I describe here is only concepts, and you don't need to do exactly same things, a so-so implementation of the concept will be very OK.

Imagine that the distance between the panel and the wall is 2 inches.

Then you do yourself 4 pieces of triangle from woods with these dimensions:

- 3 angles A (90 degrees), B(70 degrees), C (20 degrees)
or
A (90 degrees), B(65 degrees), C (25 degrees).
Note: These angles don't need to be exact, the bigger angle B is, the easier the triangle stay in place.

- 3 sides:

* side (c) (opposite of angle C): when the distance between the panel and the wall is 2 inches, then side (c) should be bigger than 2 inches => 2.5 to 3 inches is OK.

* side (a) (opposite of angle A) and side (b) (opposite of angle B): you just need to draw on paper: side (c) = 3 inches, draw angle B = 65 degrees then use pencil to draw line (a) from angle B to cut side (b). Then map that pattern to the wood to cut the woods.

* side (d): thickness of the triangle: 1 inche is OK.

Then you just need to push the triangles into the gap between the wall and the panel, 2 upper, 2 lower, with longer side (b) against the wall, the longest side (a) against the panel, side (c) is where you push the triangle into the gap between the wall and the panel.

The triangles between wall and panel will keep the panel against the back of the piano, and noise will be contained inside the panel (better noise isolation material will be better, if you use bad material then you can put pillows, blanket between the panel and the soundboard)

Note: this sounds complicated but it's simple and this solution:
- causes no harm to the piano
- easy to mount and unmount.
- you can play piano with original timbre (a muffler with felt between strings and hammers sound bad, and bad touch).

If you use wood-based panel from Home Depot or Lowes then you can paint it to avoid wood powder fall out (I did this panel twice in US, for my wife's upright and my friend)



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#2056317 - 03/29/13 03:25 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
hoola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 179
Loc: LA, USA
@bearmom

I wrote "Imagine that the distance between the panel and the wall is 2 inches", 2 inches is just an example, but you can push the piano + panel closer to the wall (less than 2 inche distance), and in this case you just need to insert anything into the gap to keep the panel stick to the panel; the triangle form is always the best, you can use carton box, fold it to create the same effect (but it will look sloppy).

@spanishbuddha, bearmom:

The idea of spanishbuddha is a good alternative, you can buy a cheap keyboard (Yamaha, touch sensitive, 76 keys) around $300 to practice things as listed by spanishbuddha.

I and my wife tried different digital pianos and see that to have good touch and sound then we have to pay at least > $US1200, and much more.

Good thing of this option is you have more voices on the keyboard + rythm, no worry about voicing, last long (I had 76 key Yamaha keyboard at $300 more than 11 years, and it works always OK), and my wife uses headphone to practice, finalize the piece, strengthen fingers with real piano.

PS: Read section Digital piano, keyboard of pianobuyer.com to get more info about prices, features ...


Edited by hoola (03/29/13 03:30 PM)

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#2056401 - 03/29/13 06:08 PM Re: how to soundproof a 48 upright piano? [Re: bearmom]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
I'd add to the wall for acoustics. Then you won't have to listen to her loud banging on the wall. Let her bang all she wants.

She must be crazy. Of course the rats ate the insulation. I don't know of any inside wall that has been insulated in the first place. Look around for fat rats.

Are you sure the last owner of your condo didn't sell because of the neighbor?

I used to have a neighbor who played piano with the house open. Was in the woods in Montana. Sound sure carries in the quiet woods. Never bothered me a bit.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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