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#2058856 - 04/03/13 06:12 PM Rach variation on Paganini theme...
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
What piece by Paganini is this variation from? "a theme by Paganini" doesn't tell me anything. I'm really eager to hear what Paganini did first. Any help?

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#2058858 - 04/03/13 06:19 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4840
Paganini's Caprice no.24 for solo violin http://youtu.be/PZ307sM0t-0

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Schumann, Liszt, Brahms, Lutoslawski and...... Andrew Lloyd-Webber wink .

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#2058859 - 04/03/13 06:20 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
24th caprice in A minor
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058864 - 04/03/13 06:24 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: bennevis]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Schumann, Liszt, Brahms, Lutoslawski and...... Andrew Lloyd-Webber wink .


I wouldn't say Liszt wrote variations for it.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058886 - 04/03/13 07:56 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Paganini's Caprice no.24 for solo violin http://youtu.be/PZ307sM0t-0

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Schumann, Liszt, Brahms, Lutoslawski and...... Andrew Lloyd-Webber wink .


There are also fine variation sets on it by Friedman (for piano) and Blacher (for orchestra). I know there are numerous others, but I can't think of any of them at the moment.

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#2058893 - 04/03/13 08:15 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: wr]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4840
Lowell Liebermann wrote his own Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini, also for piano & orchestra. Stanislaw Skrowaczewski wrote his for piano LH and orchestra. Poul Ruders wrote his for guitar and orchestra.

And Fazil Say also wrote a set for piano solo.

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#2058899 - 04/03/13 08:36 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Lowell Liebermann wrote his own Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini, also for piano & orchestra. Stanislaw Skrowaczewski wrote his for piano LH and orchestra. Poul Ruders wrote his for guitar and orchestra.

And Fazil Say also wrote a set for piano solo.


Turns out there is a Wikipedia article on it that lists quite a few works based on it, although they don't really distinguish between transcriptions, arrangements, or works with further variations. Some enterprising person should reorganize the list to do that.

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#2058901 - 04/03/13 08:40 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Damon]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Liszt


I wouldn't say Liszt wrote variations for it.


He definitely did, in his Paganini Etude No 6. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2058909 - 04/03/13 09:13 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Nathan Milstein also wrote a separate set of solo violin variations on the theme called Paganiniana. If you're into the original Caprice check it out:


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#2058911 - 04/03/13 09:33 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4840
Schumann provided piano accompaniments for the Caprices, which IMO don't add anything to the original. (But strangely, Heifetz seemed to prefer them).

Szymanowski also made transcriptions of three of the Caprices for violin and piano, but his are rather more interesting.

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#2058918 - 04/03/13 10:03 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Polyphonist]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Liszt


I wouldn't say Liszt wrote variations for it.


He definitely did, in his Paganini Etude No 6. smile


Have you listened to the original caprice? You might change your mind if you did.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058919 - 04/03/13 10:08 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Damon]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 544
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Liszt


I wouldn't say Liszt wrote variations for it.


He definitely did, in his Paganini Etude No 6. smile


Have you listened to the original caprice? You might change your mind if you did.


They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?

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#2058929 - 04/03/13 10:33 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: didyougethathing]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Liszt


I wouldn't say Liszt wrote variations for it.


He definitely did, in his Paganini Etude No 6. smile


Have you listened to the original caprice? You might change your mind if you did.


They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?


Not as far as I know. They are variations on Paganini's theme. The theme from the caprice is stated note-for-note in the beginning of the Liszt piece, as in the variations of Brahms and others. Liszt's is composed on the same theme as the other sets that have been mentioned.
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Polyphonist

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#2058931 - 04/03/13 10:35 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: didyougethathing]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Nathan Milstein also wrote a separate set of solo violin variations on the theme called Paganiniana. If you're into the original Caprice check it out:




Hahn is awesome. This set has a bit of the 6th caprice as well.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058934 - 04/03/13 10:47 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: didyougethathing]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing

They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?


Yes
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058936 - 04/03/13 10:48 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Damon]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing

They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?


Yes


Arrangements of which variations that existed before Liszt? wink (Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious)


Edited by Polyphonist (04/03/13 10:49 PM)
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Polyphonist

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#2058939 - 04/03/13 10:53 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Polyphonist]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Several composers also wrote variations on it, including Liszt


I wouldn't say Liszt wrote variations for it.


He definitely did, in his Paganini Etude No 6. smile


Have you listened to the original caprice? You might change your mind if you did.


They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?


Not as far as I know. They are variations on Paganini's theme. The theme from the caprice is stated note-for-note in the beginning of the Liszt piece, as in the variations of Brahms and others. Liszt's is composed on the same theme as the other sets that have been mentioned.


Paganini wrote those variations. Liszt transcribed them to the piano. Brahms, Rach, and others wrote their own variations. Liszt transcribed 5 other caprices, 2 of them are combined in his first Paganini etude. (the 3rd of Liszt's etudes, La Campanella, was not based on a caprice)
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058941 - 04/03/13 10:56 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Polyphonist]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing

They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?


Yes


Arrangements of which variations that existed before Liszt? wink (Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious)


Paganini's. Will no one listen to the original caprice? cry laugh
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2058943 - 04/03/13 11:00 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Damon]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing

They're more like arrangements of existing variations, are they not?


Yes


Arrangements of which variations that existed before Liszt? wink (Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious)


Paganini's. Will no one listen to the original caprice? cry laugh


Ah, I see what you mean. I guess so, yes. Liszt wrote one big variation on the whole caprice instead of multiple variations on the theme. smile
_________________________
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Polyphonist

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#2058947 - 04/03/13 11:06 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Polyphonist]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

Ah, I see what you mean. I guess so, yes. Liszt wrote one big variation on the whole caprice instead of multiple variations on the theme. smile


I would have said that Paganini's 24th caprice is in a theme and variation form and Liszt just transcribed/paraphrased it for piano. smile
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2059073 - 04/04/13 07:03 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
I got intrigued by the thought of a Skrowaczewski piano left hand and orchestra piece. Sure enough, an audio-only recording of it is on YouTube (the uploader doesn't say so, but I think it's the OOP recording of Graffman, Skrowaczewski, and the Minnesota orch.). It's actually a full-fleged concerto with the title of "Concerto Nicolo", and is loosely based on "that" theme, and sounds to me like a sort of spooky but still playful sound portrait of the darker side of the Paganini legend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Uh4fiTnhQ

Blacher's jazzy and brilliant orchestral variations are practically a concerto for orchestra, and are lots of fun -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9cLL2EdIzE

Here is Valerie Tryon playing Friedman's fascinating and very difficult set - I can't help but think that Rachmaninoff knew and was inspired by this music when he did his own variations. There is a wonderful recording by Matti Raekallio of it, but I didn't find it on YT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DquZa8aKE3I

I was surprised that there's even a complete performance of George Rochberg's exhaustive and exhausting Caprice Variations for solo violin on YT - there are 50 variations, and the piece lasts over an hour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIj4mwvTuCI

I'm not sure why, but I've always got a particular kick out of violin virtuosity - here's a fun sampling of it in the form of Ysaye's variations on the Paganini theme, as played by Ricci, who, in spite of some suspect intonation at times, had great panache in this sort of stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkmo6lIqLCo

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#2059253 - 04/04/13 11:47 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Rapsodie on a Theme of Paganini
24 Variations

I’m in proud possession of the score of Opus 43 ...
and am reminded of the haunting Variation XVIII ...
what an experience it was to first sight-read a tune
which had long been locked into my memory.

A treat in store for newcomers ... but, much as the attractive Theme draws one on ... be warned that Rachmaninoff throws in some tricky fingering ...
essentially simple arpeggiated parallel runs by two hands ... surmounted by the blocky Theme in the treble.

But once you have been drawn into the spell ...
you won’t be able to leave Variation XVIII alone.

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#2059578 - 04/05/13 04:06 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Thanks everyone but I don't think we're on the same page. It's my fault.

I meant this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Rk23itkZA#t=0m30

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#2059600 - 04/05/13 04:51 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Thanks everyone but I don't think we're on the same page. It's my fault.

I meant this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Rk23itkZA#t=0m30


They are indeed speaking of the same piece, this is variation 18 from the greater set of 24. Fast forward to ~14:15 in this if you don't believe me. Same piece, it's just part of a longer theme and variations orchestra/piano piece. I don't remember exactly, but this is some form of inverted and major version of the theme. Something like that. Fantastically gorgeous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL5aiUKPt3Q


Edited by TrueMusic (04/05/13 04:52 AM)
_________________________
Piano/Composition major.

Proud owner of a beautiful Yamaha C7.

Polish:
Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 104
Bach WTC book 1 no. 6.
Dello Joio Sonata no. 3

New:
Chopin op. 23
Bach WTC book 2 no. 20

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#2059605 - 04/05/13 05:07 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: TrueMusic]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: TrueMusic
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Thanks everyone but I don't think we're on the same page. It's my fault.

I meant this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Rk23itkZA#t=0m30


They are indeed speaking of the same piece, this is variation 18 from the greater set of 24. Fast forward to ~14:15 in this if you don't believe me. Same piece, it's just part of a longer theme and variations orchestra/piano piece. I don't remember exactly, but this is some form of inverted and major version of the theme. Something like that. Fantastically gorgeous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL5aiUKPt3Q


How is the Rhapsody a variation? It sounds so different..

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#2059625 - 04/05/13 06:13 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2117
Loc: Canada
It's inverted. Intervals that go down go up instead, and vice-versa.

http://euge.ca/2012/03/16/variation/


Edited by Kuanpiano (04/05/13 06:19 AM)
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#2059630 - 04/05/13 06:32 AM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: JoelW]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6072
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: JoelW

How is the Rhapsody a variation? It sounds so different..


It's just upside down and major instead of minor.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2059891 - 04/05/13 03:22 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Damon]
wdot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 726
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

How is the Rhapsody a variation? It sounds so different..


It's just upside down and major instead of minor.
We have a winner.

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#2059910 - 04/05/13 03:56 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: wdot]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5221
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: wdot
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

How is the Rhapsody a variation? It sounds so different..


It's just upside down and major instead of minor.
We have a winner.
bingo!

BTW, what's most annoying is that radio stations like 'Classic Fm' (in London) gets THAT variation alone and performs it (with strings and all), and everybody gets the impression that it's the full piece (missing, thus, the lovely loud coda!)

grrrr....
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#2059917 - 04/05/13 04:09 PM Re: Rach variation on Paganini theme... [Re: Damon]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW

How is the Rhapsody a variation? It sounds so different..


It's just upside down and major instead of minor.


As a kid, I learned an arrangement of just the 18th Variation. Imagine my amazement the first time I heard the entire Rhapsody and finally fully appreciated what a stroke of genius that variation was.

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