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#2064458 - 04/14/13 12:10 PM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: wouter79]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: wouter79
There are studies suggesting dangerous effects of EM fields, in spite of absence of good physical explanations for it.

For example, living near power lines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4602315.stm

It's hard to believe this is all due to a placebo effect.

There is some evidence that there might be long term risks from using cell phones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health


First off....a cell phone transmits about anywhere between .5 and 1 watt of power, which is negligible. My handheld ham radio transceiver puts out 5 watts, which is nearly a 7 dB increase in power over a cell phone. There really is no conclusive evidence linking cell phone radiation to health hazards. There is a lot of FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real), and the news media seems to love picking up on it.

Second....people hear the word "radiation" and freak out, thinking of ionizing radiation (like a nuclear plant). The only thing RF can do is heat tissue in strong enough amounts (think about your microwave oven), but that is at microwave frequencies and at very high wattages (my microwave oven operates at 1300 watts. I do steer clear of it when it's operating).

And third, Wikipedia. Not a reliable source of information, but that's a whole other thread! smile
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#2064524 - 04/14/13 02:23 PM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: Loren D]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 211
Loc: Massachusetts
And don't forget, wind turbines give you herpes! Stay away from them!

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert...-health-hazards

C-
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#2064535 - 04/14/13 02:53 PM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: Loren D]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3623
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: wouter79
There are studies suggesting dangerous effects of EM fields, in spite of absence of good physical explanations for it.

For example, living near power lines

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4602315.stm

It's hard to believe this is all due to a placebo effect.

There is some evidence that there might be long term risks from using cell phones

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health


First off....a cell phone transmits about anywhere between .5 and 1 watt of power, which is negligible. My handheld ham radio transceiver puts out 5 watts, which is nearly a 7 dB increase in power over a cell phone. There really is no conclusive evidence linking cell phone radiation to health hazards. There is a lot of FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real), and the news media seems to love picking up on it.

Second....people hear the word "radiation" and freak out, thinking of ionizing radiation (like a nuclear plant). The only thing RF can do is heat tissue in strong enough amounts (think about your microwave oven), but that is at microwave frequencies and at very high wattages (my microwave oven operates at 1300 watts. I do steer clear of it when it's operating).

And third, Wikipedia. Not a reliable source of information, but that's a whole other thread! smile


First, did you read what I wrote? If not, please read before replying. If so, why do you come with physics arguments?

Physics is just a MODEL. Leukaemia counts are facts.

Before starting more discussion: we're of course talking correlations here and it may be that something else is going on. Correlations do not prove causality.

Second, I'm missing what you're trying to say. Who is freaking out here? Again you're putting down physics arguments.

Third, you don't have to trust wikipedia, that's what they give references for. Again please read it if you really want to make meaningful statements.



Edited by wouter79 (04/14/13 02:54 PM)
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#2064592 - 04/14/13 05:18 PM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: miscrms]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: miscrms
Well that's a tricky one, and as this thread demonstrates a pretty polarizing issue. Lots of people like to worry about it, and lots of people like to make fun of those who worry about it. IMHO the reality is, like many of the things we are introducing into our daily environment we really have no idea what the long term health effects are.

FWIW I happen to be an EE with a background in microwave communications and radar systems, though I've been in fiber-optic microelectronics for the past ~10 years. That's not to say I pretend to be any sort of an expert on the health effects of EM radiation, I just know enough to realize that most of the arguments presented on the topic don't make much sense.

A couple of somewhat important points that are usually glossed over:

- The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency. So for the same power level, a cell phone or wifi signal operating in a GHz band has about 10-1000 times more energy than TV/Radio signals. As mentioned motors/compressors etc in household appliance can create substantial amounts of EM radiation, but at 60Hz, these have about 83 million times less energy per watt than a 5GHz wifi signal.

- The power density of a transmitted EM wave typically decreases with the square of the distance from the source. So your own wifi base station 10' away is effectively about 1000 times more powerful than your neighbor's 300' away. Similarly a 50W cellphone base station a mile away produces about 1/15th the local power density of an 0.125W cell phone 1' away.

Combining these two points, the absorbed energy from a 50,000W 100MHz FM transmitter 5 miles away is roughly 1/300,000 that of an 0.125W 2GHz cell phone 1' foot away.

The power level of a wifi router is rather small compared to a cell phone, about 0.028W vs. 0.125W. It can be up to 2X in frequency, but energy is still lower and its usually not as close as your cellphone. However, your cellphone power is intermittent, it varies depending on signal strength (more power when weaker) and just checks in on the network periodically at low power unless in active use. Wifi is typically on all the time.

Does it concern me? Yes. Does their seem to be any solid evidence its harmful? No. Is it feasible that long term exposure to close sources of high frequency EM radiation could have long term effects on health or behavior? Probably. Have the studies been done to show beyond a reasonable doubt that they don't? No. Will they ever? Doubtful. Proving long term effects on large populations at low dosage is extremely difficult, and given how much money there is to be made on wireless technologies there is not much incentive.

FWIW I have wifi, use a cellphone, and only hide in our Faraday cage here at work occasionally wink

On the other hand, why not turn off your wifi and anything else you don't need at night? It may or may not make any difference, but you might as well save a little electricity smile

Rob


most normal answer to me

The study about WIfi on young rats show modifications of their behavior, it is in no way said that the brain is cooked or irradied, just that they discover perturbations in sleep, alimentation and behavior with thos young rats.

ALso, if you put a cell phone on eggs ready to give chicken, theones under the cell phone do not eclose.

Using too much a cell phone on our ear cannot be good.

For the rest, I noticed how much more relaxed I am since all those equipment's are shut down at night (and for the WIfi, I perceive it if my son forget to shut it down.

I also have meet someone that developed an hypersensitivity to the cell phone antennas, due to a long exposure in front of one misplaced one. He lost memory, could not drive, had headaches,

Those sort of things are difficult to proove, of course.

Then I am not having FEAR, I am just cautious with the things I do not have enough information on (as the products that kill the bees, pollution and the bad eating habits based on junk food that some are trying to sell us as the best way to be happy)

The system itself had some success, there are numerous place yet in France, where in case of lack of transportation (no gas for instance) , 2 weeks later the supermarkets will be empty, but there are no other means to find food.










Edited by Olek (04/14/13 05:32 PM)
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#2064851 - 04/15/13 08:31 AM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: Olek]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
While I don't see how RF from a wifi would be detectable by a human, it's not impossible the box makes some kind of mechanical noise that you can hear.

Remember when the old tube tvs had a flyback transformer that ran at 15734 Hz? When I was a kid I could hear it. At my age those frequencies are gone forever, of course, so I couldn't tell you if a flat screen makes noise or not.
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#2064877 - 04/15/13 09:23 AM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: miscrms]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: miscrms
The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency.


That's only part of the story. The equation,
E = h*v (v being the letter "nu" denoting frequency)
reflects the energy per photon.

To make any sensible comparison, you have to look at waves of equal amplitude, over the same time-span.

Or, to eliminate time as a factor, simply compare power in stead of energy:
P = E/t

So, if you have a low-frequency and high-frequency wave of the same amplitude, the high-frequency wave has more photons/cycles per second, i.e. more energy per second, i.e. more power.

Therefore a more accurate statement would be:

The energy conveyed by an EM wave per unit time (i.e. its power) is directly proportional to its frequency.

But in your next statement, you are specifically looking at two waves with the same power:

Originally Posted By: miscrms
So for the same power level, a cell phone or wifi signal operating in a GHz band has about 10-1000 times more energy than TV/Radio signals.


No. For the same amplitude, a higher frequency has more energy (or power). But for the same power level, as you have stated, energy (per unit time) is the same for both waves: P = E/t, i.e. E = P*t.

A 1 W wave carries 1 J/s, irrespective of the frequency. So, the energy (per time) in a 1 W microwave signal is the same as in a 1 W radio signal: 1 J/s. Their amplitudes, however, are vastly different.
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#2064902 - 04/15/13 10:09 AM Re: Do piano tuners perceive a wifi shut down ? [Re: Mark R.]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: miscrms
The energy conveyed by an EM wave is directly proportional to its frequency.


That's only part of the story.

....For the same amplitude, a higher frequency has more energy (or power). But for the same power level, as you have stated, energy (per unit time) is the same for both waves: P = E/t, i.e. E = P*t.

A 1 W wave carries 1 J/s, irrespective of the frequency. So, the energy (per time) in a 1 W microwave signal is the same as in a 1 W radio signal: 1 J/s. Their amplitudes, however, are vastly different.

Thanks for the clear explanation. I knew that claim couldn't be right but I didn't know the physics.

-Andy

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