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#2045354 - 03/09/13 02:32 AM Sample
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
For those of you who have asked for a sample of my tuning, here is one, courtesy of a local PBS station:

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#2045381 - 03/09/13 06:37 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1938
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
BDB,

Could you clue me in as to where the piano's microphones were located?

Why I'm asking: granted, I'm only listening on smallish headphones, but from what I hear, the voicings in the 3rd and the 4th octave are carrying through very warmly, while the 5th octave, especially at forte, sounds quite harsh, almost metallic. I was wondering whether that's to do with the recording, or my playback, or whether it was perhaps voiced that way deliberately?
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2045468 - 03/09/13 10:59 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
I really cannot, as I tuned and went home, but it is usually miked with a couple of mikes under the lid. The piano is an old Kawai 600 from the 1960s, which has seen a lot of use. I first tuned it for a show with Woody Herman, and when I tell people that now, they ask, "Who is Woody Herman?" It is kind of harsh in the upper registers, but as I often say, there are limits to how much voicing one can do. The television lights have an affect, too. It was warmer than usual on the stage.
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#2059557 - 04/05/13 02:23 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
Bumping this for Maximillyan.
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#2059676 - 04/05/13 08:49 AM Re: Sample [Re: Mark R.]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2039
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
BDB,

Could you clue me in as to where the piano's microphones were located?

If possible, I like to hear pianos with no mic interface. I realize that's not possible in this case. If I do hear a recording, I withhold any critique unless the unisons and octaves are howling like a pack of wolves. Mics, room acoustics, and recording equipment mess up any good sound if they aren't perfect, and they seldom are.
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
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#2059723 - 04/05/13 09:46 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)


Edited by Olek (04/05/13 09:54 AM)
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2059935 - 04/05/13 04:44 PM Re: Sample [Re: Olek]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 557
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2059945 - 04/05/13 05:08 PM Re: Sample [Re: Chris Leslie]
dancarney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 144
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?


Quicker decay, perhaps.
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#2059964 - 04/05/13 05:50 PM Re: Sample [Re: dancarney]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: dancarney
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?


Quicker decay, perhaps.


Yes , Chris, I (thanks Dan) think that when we say "tune the attack" it is not the attack per se that is empowered by the tuning, more the decay moment, the attack is then cleaned because energy is immediately given to a larger spectra, then, the power allowed immediately can be regulated by tuning the decay more or less "late" . The range of possibilities is not that large and depends of the differences in spectras, iH, voicing, (string lenght eveness in the unison , string quality and hammer quality)

You can strive to obtain much power immediately, or allow the attack to "enlarge" , this gIves more control on tone to the pianist. I believe that basically the playing hand that tells the brain when to tune (hence the possibility to tune with earplugs up to some point, as the thickening of tone is perceived)

The idea "hear 2 strings as it was one" is good as long as the string imagined is thickened and more present, more lively.

The tone can be explosive but at the beginning of the aftersound.

I have no other easy trick than to evaluate how the tone escapes and "tune the attack", but to do so we need to focus on coupling at a certain level, when adfing the 3 string straightness of tone can be balanced.

Tuning good intruments make this easier to perceive.
Then, voicing can be envisaged leaving more power at the attack.

Greetings
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2194534 - 12/08/13 02:49 PM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Sent here via link on Max's thread.

Really nice BDB. Voiced just right for soft jazz. Piano and double bass compliment especially well.


Edited by bkw58 (12/08/13 03:00 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2194810 - 12/09/13 01:17 AM Re: Sample [Re: Chris Leslie]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Olek
As there :

What size is that piano ?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVW5mbGFGOHBLTGs/edit?usp=sharing (sorry for the music wink

On the BDB record, unison seem to shorten the tone somehow (sorry)

Issac, can you explain what it is about a unison that will cause the tone to shorten?


This question was never answered.
Isaac seems not to know much about this sort of piano from this era. They had a tendency to shortness of sustain. Was this Isaac merely being pretentious again?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2194813 - 12/09/13 01:31 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
wink...
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2194819 - 12/09/13 01:42 AM Re: Sample [Re: rxd]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 557
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Thanks rxd. I asked because I notice on some pianos that some unisons seem to vanish quicker when tuned in while others, most, do not. I thought maybe that Isaac was thinking that this phenomena was happening on BDB's recording, so I was just wondering about a physical explanation.


Edited by Chris Leslie (12/09/13 01:58 AM)
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Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2194830 - 12/09/13 02:16 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
You always can cut a little in tone at tuning time, then on old Japanese pianos short tone will be even worse. I listened with better equipment and could not decide if it was unison or the piano, but I had to go before listening to the whole video.
Then
Then if you lengthen the (fundamental) tone by tuning unison at FFF so you get more energy to drive, but dynamics may lower.

That just relate to the use of impact energy, but when the piano have short sustain, that one reduce your options. Eventually, playing very strong while tuning gives a little more material to work with. And the player can do the same then.

Music very nicely played


Edited by Olek (12/09/13 03:05 AM)
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#2194840 - 12/09/13 03:00 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.
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Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2194867 - 12/09/13 05:17 AM Re: Sample [Re: bkw58]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2194882 - 12/09/13 06:37 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
I may have lost some of my goodwill energy, may be.

I don't do much concert work those days indeed. You would it be you had to listen to numerous samples of my work so you could admit how great I am...

You can stay sitting, no problem. Beside, I am presumptuous as all Frenchies probably.
With all due respect to honorable colleagues...



Edited by Olek (12/09/13 09:59 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2194887 - 12/09/13 07:24 AM Re: Sample [Re: bkw58]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2039
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.

This sample sounds as good now as it did eight months ago. The piano is marvelous and the musicians are top-notch. I may start sounding like a skipping record (remember those?), but microphones don't hear like we do. For broadcast purposes, sound is limited or compressed, or both, so it won't sound like it does in the actual performance in the room. 'Great job!
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2194893 - 12/09/13 07:58 AM Re: Sample [Re: David Jenson]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.

This sample sounds as good now as it did eight months ago. The piano is marvelous and the musicians are top-notch. I may start sounding like a skipping record (remember those?), but microphones don't hear like we do. For broadcast purposes, sound is limited or compressed, or both, so it won't sound like it does in the actual performance in the room. 'Great job!


Yes, if a piano sounds the same after 8 months, that is great stability. wink
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Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2194938 - 12/09/13 10:31 AM Re: Sample [Re: UnrightTooner]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.

This sample sounds as good now as it did eight months ago. The piano is marvelous and the musicians are top-notch. I may start sounding like a skipping record (remember those?), but microphones don't hear like we do. For broadcast purposes, sound is limited or compressed, or both, so it won't sound like it does in the actual performance in the room. 'Great job!


Yes, if a piano sounds the same after 8 months, that is great stability. wink


You might have just discovered a new way to look at piano tuning stability: literarily. This is great! Think I'll look too. Could be one of my tunings has been holding for some 10 years now. Come to think of it, literarily is really not the best word here. We may need to coin a new adverb: audio-literarily. (I'll race you to the copyright office.) laugh


Edited by bkw58 (12/09/13 10:33 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
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Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2194994 - 12/09/13 12:44 PM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
Not only has the tuning not changed in that recording, the comments have not either.

On the other hand, that piano has been tuned 4 or 5 times since that was made.
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#2195066 - 12/09/13 02:39 PM Re: Sample [Re: Olek]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
I may have lost some of my goodwill energy, may be.

I don't do much concert work those days indeed. You would it be you had to listen to numerous samples of my work so you could admit how great I am...

You can stay sitting, no problem. Beside, I am presumptuous as all Frenchies probably.
With all due respect to honorable colleagues...



Isaac, you sayin you're a hazbin?

No no no. That accolade belongs to me and I'm not ready to relinquish it yet.

Just a little longer???
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2195280 - 12/09/13 08:19 PM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks for posting, BDB. It sounds good as one would expect in a broadcast recording. Kawais of that era did not have the best of bridge caps. That could contribute to the short sustain, also contamination such as some kind of muck that we don't really see but is there. If you are a tuner asked to tune a piano for an event like this, there are some things you can't change on the spot. Leave to Isaac, however to not find anything nice to say about anyone's efforts.
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Madison WI USA
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#2195287 - 12/09/13 08:38 PM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 390
Loc: Lincoln, NE
About 20 minutes in there's a nice piano solo. Nice job BDB! The piano sounded marvelous!
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"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#2196133 - 12/11/13 02:57 PM Re: Sample [Re: rxd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd,

I think that only a boor would direct those words to a technician as Isaac, and I do not see how that style can help to describe our work. I think you ought to apologize.
.
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alfredo

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#2196202 - 12/11/13 05:32 PM Re: Sample [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd,

I think that only a boor would direct those words to a technician as Isaac, and I do not see how that style can help to describe our work. I think you ought to apologize.
.


I quite agree and understand fully where you're coming from and the emotional content carried over from other threads. - an all too common occurrence.
Since you raised the issue again, It took a few words in order to address an ongoing problem. A totally unfounded, unnecessary and pretentious criticism of a compressed recording couldn't go unchallenged at the same level.

Am I to assume that you agree with isaacs original "criticism" when he himself posted later an admission that he really couldn't tell the difference between what was the piano and what was the tuning and then delete that post a few hours later?

I suggest you read the complete thread. It's all there and doesn't need the deleted parts to be indefensible.

Constructive criticism-Yes.
Self serving, Ill considered boorish and unfounded carping,- a resounding No.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196344 - 12/11/13 11:00 PM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1889
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
When I first began piano tuning it was rare for a technician to tune for another or to seek out other tuners opinion of their work. Then some brave souls such as Jim Colemen Sr., Jack Caskey, and a few others I am forgetting at the moment would present programs where they tuned for the attendees. We have progressed in openness.

Thanks for posting the clip BDB.


Edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT (12/11/13 11:00 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2196378 - 12/12/13 01:26 AM Re: Sample [Re: BDB]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
Those of us who tune for performances are always putting our tunings on display, although it is usually fairly anonymous. I have tuned that piano for a movie, where I am fairly certain that I did not get credit. (I have not seen it, and heard it was not very good. The plot seemed stupid.) I will tune it one more time this year for New Year's Eve.

I got curious, and found that there are a number of videos with pianos that I had tuned on YouTube. Many of them are amateur recordings and they do not sound very good, although the tuning seems adequate. There are better recordings of many performances which remain locked in the vaults until who knows when, the archival recordings of performances.
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#2196486 - 12/12/13 10:33 AM Re: Sample [Re: rxd]
lluiscl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 145
Originally Posted By: rxd
I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd:
Was you drunk or what?

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#2196492 - 12/12/13 11:04 AM Re: Sample [Re: lluiscl]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: lluiscl
Originally Posted By: rxd
I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd:
Was you drunk or what?


I've known a lot of people like you, too.

Go back and educate yourself with the details. It's about making crass judgements then admitting not enough knowledge of the situation and looking foolish.

Sound familiar?

Oh, and I don't have a reason to drink.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Some interesting finds in a museum visit today!
by LarryShone
07/30/14 01:06 PM
Help with a Bluthner
by Classicalist
07/30/14 12:54 PM
Yamaha DGX650 - looking for an alternative! Need advice
by Karinioza
07/30/14 11:51 AM
Piano oriented film soundtracks/scores.
by aDino
07/30/14 11:21 AM
Help with dynamics
by noobpianist90
07/30/14 03:53 AM
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