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#2060440 - 04/06/13 04:09 PM Upright regulation ordered checklist
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
I am curious to see which steps different technicians use and in which order when regulating an upright. Also which checks you use to know if work is needed or to know that your work is done correctly.

To begin with, it seems that techs from, say, the US and techs from the UK use different names for different things. Maybe someone should write a dictionary and a regulation FAQ smile
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2060545 - 04/06/13 10:13 PM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Many books have been written on the subject. You could start with the "Vertical Regulation Curriculum Workbook" by Laroy Edwards, RPT.

http://www.ptg.org/Scripts/4Disapi.dll/4...;MenuKey=Menu11

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

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#2060566 - 04/06/13 11:19 PM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2081
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I am curious to see which steps different technicians use and in which order when regulating an upright. Also which checks you use to know if work is needed or to know that your work is done correctly.

To begin with, it seems that techs from, say, the US and techs from the UK use different names for different things. Maybe someone should write a dictionary and a regulation FAQ smile
Are you a technician?
Edit; 'Sorry I guess you are. I had to do a search for back posts to determine that. Most of us put some indication in a signature line to that effect. 'Avoids confusion, especially for me who am easily confused.

As I think about it, I start with the keybed making sure the balance rail is as level as I can get it. Then I experiment with back-rail, balance rail, and front rail felt to get proper key-dip and key-height making sure they won't hit the name board felt. If I can get that right, there is minimal adjustment in the rest of the action. That key-board felt really takes a beating!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2060704 - 04/07/13 10:02 AM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: David Jenson]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
I am not a technician, just an amateur wanting to learn. Especially about my own upright.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2060705 - 04/07/13 10:06 AM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
Originally Posted By: Cy Shuster, RPT
Many books have been written on the subject. You could start with the "Vertical Regulation Curriculum Workbook" by Laroy Edwards, RPT.

http://www.ptg.org/Scripts/4Disapi.dll/4...;MenuKey=Menu11

--Cy--


It seems to be out of order, unfortunately?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2060710 - 04/07/13 10:19 AM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
I just finished regulating an upright yesterday, so while it's fresh on my mind, I'll contribute.

There's not so much a checklist, as linearities and loops. The keyboard is a linearity. Before doing anything else, the keyboard has to be done correctly, just as in a grand, with one exception: weight sometimes has to be immediately added. There's a lot of lightweight, poorly made, American upright keyboards out there.

The keys have to fall back gently on their own weight to regulate friction properly at the balance rail and front pin. Keyheight is derived from the amount of dip needed to get good jack clearance with 5/8" of check. Start high because you can always add dip punchings.

Upright action frames are always more flimsy than grands. Take the time to tighten the frame and bed it correctly at the right strike point and the energy of the piano will be much higher. Sometimes strike is not set right at the factory.

Tightening flange screws of all the wippens and hammers will also help with this while you are traveling them. Hammer shaping and traveling helps because often hammers aren't even glued on straight.

Then it's simple once all the setup is complete. Blow should be as deep as possible with the available dip. Set the rail. Take out lost motion at the capstan. Do letoff. Align and set checking, 5/8" or less, but not too much less.

One other thing, resetting the letoff rail is a common thing on most uprights. They always need to be looked at. The letoff rail, letoff itself, checking, dip and jack clearance are all key components of good final touch.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

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#2060715 - 04/07/13 10:46 AM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: Tunewerk]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
Thanks for your replies!

Now, the things that strikes me the most about my own upright is that

1) playability feels uneven

2) it is hard to control dynamics

3) hard to play very soft and even

4) there seem to be some/a lot of friction somewhere in the action of many keys

5) it seems somewhat/a lot easier to play with the damper pedal down, indicating that some of the friction is in the damper part of the action

6) some notes have double hitting hammers

7) at least one note almost always plays rather loud, nearly regardless of how hard the key is struck. This note always sticks out as being extra loud during play

I know that this inexpensive Chinese Nordiska 120CA will not play like an expensive well-regulated grand ever, but I have a feeling that it can at play at lot more consistent and even than it does now.

Will the regulations mentioned in this thread fix these issues, or is more serious repair work needed?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2060717 - 04/07/13 10:52 AM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2081
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I am not a technician, just an amateur wanting to learn. Especially about my own upright.
If you have no experience, I'd advise getting a book and a junker to practice on. It's not rocket science, but it's not for the DIY tinkerer, unless ... you have unusual mechanical ability, or a junker to learn on.

The better course by far is to hire a professional especially if you don't know why you are getting double hitting.


Edited by David Jenson (04/07/13 10:56 AM)
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2060745 - 04/07/13 11:58 AM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
I would start with these two simple adjustments, in this order:

1. Remove lost motion (raise the capstans at the back of the keys so that the hammer moves as soon as you touch the key). This will move the jack farther when the key is fully depressed, and may cure the double strikes.

2. Adjust let-off to be roughly the thickness of the string (bigger for those wound strings; less on top). If you go too far, the hammer will "block" against the string.

These two adjustments can make a big difference in the feel of an action. From the problems you describe, it sounds like additional steps are needed to remove friction. Regulation costs more than tuning, but it lasts for several years, and is a lot cheaper than buying a new piano.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

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#2060795 - 04/07/13 02:12 PM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
Thank you very much for your hints.

It's not that I don't want to pay a tech for regulating or tuning my piano. I probably will do so at some point. But I want to understand as much as possible and I would like to be able to make perform at least the easiest and most unambiguous of diagnoses and adjustments of my own piano, even if it is just a not so expensive Chinese one. I really have the feeling that it can perform way better, still within its limits. I am a incurable tinkerer smile

I am reading the Reblitz book and will probably order this when it's available.

There are surprisingly few guides on the web that describes in detail what to check, how to check, what to do to cure etc, in what order etc.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2060806 - 04/07/13 02:26 PM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: David Jenson]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I am not a technician, just an amateur wanting to learn. Especially about my own upright.
If you have no experience, I'd advise getting a book and a junker to practice on. It's not rocket science, but it's not for the DIY tinkerer, unless ... you have unusual mechanical ability, or a junker to learn on.

The better course by far is to hire a professional especially if you don't know why you are getting double hitting.


I have the Reblitz book and the vast internet and this forum smile
The piano I have now is not exactly a junker, in fact I play it everyday. On the other hand, it didn't cost a (very large) fortune when it was new about 5-8 years ago, and it didn't cost me anything personally, I got it for free from the person who bought it from new.
That doesn't mean that I don't care about ruining it. But I want to learn as much as I can about tuning and servicing this piano, without ruining it.

There is no doubt that I will get better results just calling a tech. And I probably will do that at some point. But I guess you could say I have two goals:

1) I want my piano to play better
2) I want to learn as much as possible and be able to do as much as possible myself, in terms of making the piano play better.

So before I call a tech, I want to read, ask and try some things first.

And when I DO call that tech, I will be watching his work closely and asking a lot questions smile
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2060807 - 04/07/13 02:28 PM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7285
Loc: Rochester MN
Have you checked this book out?

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/655

It is available at Amazon.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2060814 - 04/07/13 03:01 PM Re: Upright regulation ordered checklist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 214
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Have you checked this book out?

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/655

It is available at Amazon.


Will check it out, thanks!
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top

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