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Well, the Greeks, Spanish etc. have the same rights and freedoms as every other nation that is a part of the EU. Yet, I have not seen German complain about being members of the EU -- maybe because they actually produce some values unlike, say, the Greek whose economy is (or rather was until it collapsed) one big joke. The worst thing was that they lied about it. Now the German have to bend over backwards to make up for that.

So yes, the EU is not perfect by any stretch of imagination and many of their regulations border on ridiculous. But don't talk like the nations you have mentioned have been put in their situation by the "evil" EU. They are solely responsible for that. I repeat: It's their OWN GODDAMN FAULT!

You're right ...Europe has swallowed socialism whole. And, unfortunately, the same is happening here in America. We used to be a nation of motivated individuals, industrious and independent. Now we're becoming slaves to the nanny state, dependent on government for everything.

Witness the fits over the budget politics surrounding sequestration. The socialists moan over a paltry $80 B cut (in a multi-trillion dollar budget) ... when we really need to cut a full trillion. But then, that would not satisfy the gimme-gimme-gimme crowd who live off the government. And all the while that same government wants to further raid my wallet by opening the borders to yet more gimme-gimme immigrants.

Socialism is the last gasp of a failed civilization, founded on losership. Most of Europe has already succumbed. And now America seeks to join them. It's disgusting.

America doesn't have socialists, never really did. There is right wing, far right wing and predator capitalist. Obama is so far to the right of Nixon that he makes Nixon look like a Communist in comparison.

America has the lowest taxes in the developed world. Quite a feat when you consider that most of them go to the gimme-gimme crowd of investment bankers, corporate farmers and lobbyists together with the bottomless pit of military overreach to feed its unconstitutional standing army, spending more than the rest of the entire world combined on defense and weapons of mass destruction (and upwards of $8 trillion dollars on the fiasco defeats in Afghanistan and Iraq alone when when you count all the projected costs of the handout-demanding, crippled and brain-damaged veterans who expect to be supported by the "nanny state" for the rest of their lives for their tragic and worthless sacrifice).

What is killing America is not socialism. It is giving up " We the People " and self-government to become passive, consumer-serfs of global corporations that are the new voting citizens.

Boys! Boys! Your gonna hurt someone!

These are very difficult matters to argue about properly, and it's very easy to talk rubbish (it seems the more you move to the west and beyond the ocean, the easier it is).
Both systems (neocons/false liberalism and socialdemocracy) have deceived people, and both have developed false explanations to justify their proceedings.
It's sad reading some people's prejudices about Europe and its socialdemocracy, that has done a lot of positive things before selling itself to corrupt bankers (if you'll forgive the repetition).
It's even sadder to hear once and again that old chat about freedom and individualism, the State as a mother and the inmigrants, all toghether.
Inmigrants! In America! How they dare? That rich and egalitarian, millenial people with strange names (Patrick, James,Joshua...), food (those exotic pork chops!) and religion (imagine? they were all christians!) was there since the ice melted! And then the poors came...to steal it all to them.
And what about that "liberalism" full of commercial guards so that american products get well protected against imports?

This so called crisis (which is the greatest robbery-in-the-face ever seen) has put them all in its place, whatever the mask they were wearing, as in the past happened to comunism.

One good thing (among many others) has America that we lack: some "Bowling for Columbine" or an "Inside job" would be much appreciated here.
We all (americans, greeks, spaniards, irish...) have what we deserve...and a good portion of what THEY (corrupt politicians, bankers) deserved.

Now, time will tell.

Hey, this is a digital piano forum. I'd say this thread has become to political. I say we write the pianist who had opinions and find out if she was influenced by Yamaha. But if we examine the pianos she was comparing, the AG was probably going to win. Does anyone think she would end up saying that the Casio was the best for her?

Well if anything then this thread has become quite revealing about anyone's opinions, hasn't it?

Huh??????!!!!!Obama is to the right of Nixon? What do they teach in the schools over there?

Nixon (and Reagan) were the last of the ardent anti-socialists.

Meanwhile Obama is most socialist of any President, ever. His entire life has been spent learning socialism and bringing it out in his politics. He admits it and basks in it.

Are you smoking something you can share with the rest of us? Or are you momentarily left/right dyslexic?

Or maybe you just watch too much TV? In America, television is so far left that people are blind to it. Is that true in Europe, too?

See what I mean? "In America, television is so far left that people are blind to it." Very interesting, and revealing about the one who writes it.

On the marketing issue that generated all these outbursts, one would really wish that someone with true, inside knowledge would contribute. But so far I don't think we have seen such a contribution to this thread.

Since I started this thread I feel I can take a little liberty in adding my two cents to this discussion which has turned decidedly political.

I'm probably in a unique situation here, more than most of the individuals in this thread, as I'm American and have lived in the Netherlands for the last 18 years. I also served 20 years in a very conservative organization, the US Army, (though as a professional musician).

I lived the first 44 years of my life in the US and for the last 18 years in the Netherlands. Even though I pay slightly more in taxes here (I'll provide several links at the end of this message), I have no intentions of ever moving back to the US. The standard of living is noticeably higher here, period.

We pay more in taxes though not considerably more than my fellow Americans in the US. The roads are excellent, the train system impressive, health care - well, the Dutch are the tallest people (by national average) on the planet which speaks volumes on the preventative approach to medicine as well as to the food supply and general education.

The Netherlands, a small country, twice the size of New Jersey, is number two in agricultural exports.

The Dutch speak English better than many of our own citizens (certainly better than our previous President) and typically speak German and a fair amount of French.

Policy here is typically formed by those expert in the field of question and not by politicians; health care policy is typically made by health care professionals and not by religious or political types if you catch my drift. This is a generalization I realize but basically accurate.

The religious belief or lack thereof of a politician is not an issue here. The Dutch are a proud people and justifiably so.

Here are a few links to ponder ...

NY Times article on what it's like to live in Holland

NationMaster - a great place to compare national statistics on just about any topic

Gasoline prices by country

Now, having posted all this ... can we keep this thread, the thread I started, on track.

Nope, we are not in an economics marketing faculty absolvents forum. But seriously, I myself was previously involved a little in placing information about our own SW products most in local press and media and this thin experience is a good basis to imagine how it could work on the big scale.

I must confess, I found these whole shifting discussions very refreshing, the participants have only revealed, that so many contradicting affinities coexist with our common hobbies/profession. And some of us became just more flesh and blood personalities for me than before.

I also think, the professional side here is just much stronger represented than assumed, more silent or disguised, than the role of say KJ or MM or ATLPianos or DEL over there in the other fora is. This is perhaps why we don't find a Roland or Yamaha representative here. (At least I think to hear out some frustration due to the suppressed personality of the proponents.)

Why not, many professionals, dealers, etc. may and should retain their enthusiastic attitude along with their carrier.

Hi all,
Before I try to get the discussion back on topic, like Dave Horne I have lived both in the US and Europe (basically the first half of my life in the US and the second half in the UK). I do not feel any less 'free' here! And once you take the cost of private health insurance in the US into account, my salary and living standards are not discernibly different than those of my friends in the states. In the 90s, friends in the states simply could not believe that I could pay my bills by direct debit before they could, or that my supermarket had a system of self-scanning items before theirs. So I have no idea what this socialism rap is all about.

But back on topic, recently I saw a newspaper article unrelated to music or tech, where a DP was referred to as a 'Yamaha'. In other words, as a generic name, like Kleenex for facial tissue in America, Hoover for vacuum cleaner in Britain, or Xerox for photocopier. I can't recall, but it was something like a property article where a pianist was moving into an apartment, and the advice was to "buy a Yamaha" so as to not disturb the neighbours.

I am living in countries of the old K.u.K (Austrian - Hungarian) Monarchy (half to half in Vienna and Hungary), lived previously fast a decade in Germany, but for a short time I worked in Italy too). The many strong differences between these geographically neighbouring worlds I am confronting day for day taught me to be very tolerant towards different political views based mostly on illusions. Illusions by which we are only equipped to cope with the complexities of modern societies. Most interesting to see how different the political themes in different countries are, the answers to them is secondary.

...<DELETED>...

I also would say, I don't want to pay my Taxes in Texas.

I think calls to bring this thread back to the topic of piano are misplaced/futile. Such a large portion is now not piano related that it would be a waste if good piano discussion came up because those interested in it might be turned off by the unrelated political rhetoric.

I only called out the journey on the WSJ comment because it's patently crazy, but at least it was mostly on topic. At this point it's the most sane and on topic thing he has said in this thread. TheJourney, I don't know what your ties to America are (if any) but it's clear that you know nothing about it. No one who knows the definition of right and left would say Obama is left right of Nixon in any sense of the word. Obama and Biden were two of the most liberal senators (based on voting record) we had before they ran and Nixon was by no means liberal (if you can even compare political spectra over time).

It is a well-accepted fact that almost all media in the US are left of the mean. That can be verified by the fact that reporters, journalists, and editors are almost 100% democrat, which is our left-wing party. Where they are relative to Europeans is pretty much irrelevant. Politics across countries are not comparable. The issues are different and the people are different. Many people outside the US try to weigh in on one side of American politics for some reason, typically because they watch a lot of CNN or pick up cues from our movies, but they don't understand the issues and they confuse the main message of much of our media (that we should move to the left of where we are) with a very different message (that America is broken, or moving to the right, that republicans are sinister, or other such nonsense). Weighing in on stuff you only know about through hearsay (i.e., whatever media you have in the Netherlands) really just makes you look like a fool.

I just came back from spending some time in France and more than one person approached me and said "You are from America? Let me explain to you about the defining characteristic of America..." and then they would say the stupidest things imaginable (they weren't drunk at the time, by the way). You can't blame their ignorance, necessarily. They only know what they see in movies and TV. This conversation is eerily similar, though.

I'm sure there's lots of great stuff about the Netherlands and other socialist countries. Any differences are likely to have upsides and downsides--that's the way the world works. But it doesn't follow that the US should or wants to be the same way (or even that it could, feasibly). And it definitely doesn't follow that Europeans are in a good position to take a side in American politics or the state of business or journalism in America.

I believe you may have intended to write 'right of Nixon' there.

James
x

Oopsie. Fixed.

Maybe that same thing is what happened earlier in the thread. Wouldn't it be funny if this whole thread-path was all a big typo and we are actually all in agreement?

Stick to wrting about your own country...
it's clear you have NO IDEA what you
are talking about. Jeez.

I don't watch television. I do read.

Perhaps you might read some quality newspapers and learn a little history rather than repeating what one hears on Faux News?

Not having lived in both Europe and the US and having no first hand experience of Europe is one thing, but not even knowing the (recent!) history of your own country is tragic.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/05/b...om-the-liberal-days-of-nixon.html?_r=0#h[TrHSc,1]

"Socialism" is a negative, knee-jerk, red-flag, manipulative code word used in political propaganda in the US, particularly from the right-most side of the aisle. It doens't really mean anything more than " bad guys! ".

When you line up 10 random Americans from the street and ask them to define " socialism " you get 10 different but wrong answers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVz4VweMqFE

Depending on how old you are I may have lived a good many more decades in the US than you have. Also, remember, not everyone has lived in only one country or is limited to having just one nationality.


It is true that the Netherlands is more "social" than the US e.g.:
- violent crime is a fraction of that in the US and the prisons are empty and being shuttered in NL while it is a growth industry in the US which has a greater percentage of its population deprived of its freedom and locked up in prison of any country in the history of the world;
- childhood poverty is virtually unknown while 30% of American children grow up in poverty;
- everyone is fully covered for affordable health care and free to be an entrepreneur and open a business spend time raising their family properly in the Netherlands rather than being dependent on commuting to a dead-end job just for access to health insurance (or risking suffering or dying without);
- there is more social mobility and chance to be able to study and work hard to achieve the "American Dream" in the Netherlands than in the US where children increasingly cannot escape the social class of their parents.

Interestingly enough, on many of the measures that people traditionally associate with "socialism", the United States is substantially more socialist than the Netherlands:

- Markets in the Netherlands are more open and liberalized than in the US which uses Chinese-style protetionism in many industries;
- Health care is 100% privatized through private health insurance versus only 35% of the US health care spending not going through socialized programs of Medicare/Medicaid/VA/etc.;
- 70% of students attend private schools versus only 11% in the US;
- rather than grand socialist projects such as the America's interstate highway system, the users of Dutch roads pay the lion share of their cost through road and gasoline taxes;
- AND, particularly important for this forum: rather than sports, universal grade school music lessons, band and choir being socialized and provided and paid for in government-run, public schools such as historically in the US, parents in the Netherlands must enroll their children in private music schools and pay their own way if they want their children to have a music education.

It is interesting to note that so many of the things that made America great are the grand scope and success of her most socialist monuments such as universal education, the Land Grants, Hoover Dam, NASA, the great State Universities before they became profit centers to scam kids for big bucks rather than to educate them, etc. etc.

Whenever too much naive trust is placed in unregulated, private markets we get the Great Depressions, Bernie Madoffs and the rest of the banksters that made off with our economy and our tax dollars, etc.

Yep, Holland is anything but socialist. It's a democratic kingdom, in fact, and maybe the cradle (one of them) for many of the good things that americans have (including genetics, which means gals)! And, I must say, a fantastic country where you can find the more polite people all across Europe (maybe because they are educated to be citizens, first of all). A little snooty compared to latins, but very friendly and kind compared to germans! Sadly, the hard right wing party has gained a lot of votes lately, but that's nothing strange if we attend to average age of hollanders, which is high, and how they feel about so-called melting pot, among other reasons, banksters included.
What I don't get is this kind of war between american and european, all of this anger.

About Yamaha as a metonymy for every DP: my teacher names "Clavinova" to every digital, no matter the actual make, and so others do, here. Maybe that pianist above shares the same prejudice.