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#2063353 - 04/12/13 08:46 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Praeludium]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7983
Originally Posted By: Praeludium
I just wanted to say I do agree with Derulux (sounds like we're in a minority).

Talent sounds like a generic name for all the factors we overlook when we're dealing with thing such as being a virtuoso instrumentalist.
Have you ever thought how many things (none of them innate ?) can influence someone to the point of making him doing huge progress ?
It's so big it's hardly conceivable...

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.



However, there are many people who grow up in musical households who exposed to musical influences from the beginning, but they still do not turn into "talented" musicians. Certainly being born into such a household can make an enormous difference, but it isn't the only deciding factor, or the world would have many, many more Kissins, IMO.

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#2063355 - 04/12/13 08:48 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: landorrano]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7983
Originally Posted By: landorrano
From what I read in this thread, I'd say that baby Evgeny had an indiscutable talent at birth, that of having a mother who taught his sister Bach fugues.



Having the talent to get oneself born into the right circumstances shouldn't be underestimated, it's true.

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#2063366 - 04/12/13 09:19 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Hypothetical situation here: two students start playing piano at the age of 8. They have the same teacher. Both students remain with this teacher for five years. In this time, the students have maintained an equal passion and work ethic, but one of the students is noticeably better than the other. The kid has more talent than the other. See?



I can do better, I have a real-life anecdote.

I know a couple of identical twin brothers who are musicians, one is cellist, the brother plays violin. When they were kids, their father locked them each in a room and made them practice for hours at a time, didn't even let them out to [censored] "winkle". He knew the likes of Casals, he wanted his boys to be great musicians.

It's another fellow, a musician himself who grew up with them, who told me about their childhood, and he says that even when they were little it was evident that the cellist had that "something", something special. And today the cellist is a world-reknowned soloist, and the violinist while a professional musician plays in a small town orchestra.

Was one more talented than the other? For my part, I don't think that this situation proves anything of the sort. There are many factors that enter into the development of a child and in the end you can't know exactly why one develops the way he does. The relationship between each child and the father, or with their mother; the rivalry between the two; the relationship with the teachers.



Edited by landorrano (04/12/13 09:46 AM)

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#2063394 - 04/12/13 10:08 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: wr]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19594
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Praeludium

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.
I think what Kissin did at 11 months is not remotely close natural or normal for someone that age no matter how much they are exposed to music.

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#2063428 - 04/12/13 11:09 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2738
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Hakki,

My interest here is the definition of "virtuoso", which was included in the original question. If we don't have a common frame of reference for that word, then the discussion of talent or innate musical ability or innate musicality cannot be included in a discussion of "virtuoso" technique".


Originally Posted By: King Cole
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Most here are aware of this, but "talent" discussion seems more interesting for most of us (including me) than discussing the rather naïve questions of the OP.


Naive you say? Well I apologize. We can't all be young pianists winning amateur chopin competitions like you my good man.

Hakki what is your definition virtuoso anyway? I know it may be hard to come down to us mortals but please enlighten us with your utter brilliance.



OK. First let me say that this happens from time to time with my posts.
English is not my native language and I might sometimes use incorrect words.

Let me just say that these (OP's first post questions) are not meaningful questions, because the answer is obvious. It takes many years to become a virtuoso provided that one has the necessary talent and correct teachers. And hence my reluctance to answer them.

As for my definition of virtuoso, well a simple Google search returns many reasonable definitions. But here are some examples from the past, near past and present, whom I would consider to have virtuoso technique:

Paganini, Liszt
Cziffra
Volodos, Hamelin, Wang

Hope this helps.


Edited by Hakki (04/12/13 11:34 AM)
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2063452 - 04/12/13 11:49 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Hakki]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Hakki,

Your command of english is extremely good and shows a natural "talent" and the necessary hard work required to bring that talent to fruition. Or, as Dr. Suzuki postulated, using the "mother tongue method", you learned the language by rote in the beginning along with your native tongue. Well done in any case.

Regards

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#2063455 - 04/12/13 11:52 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Hakki]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Hakki,

My interest here is the definition of "virtuoso", which was included in the original question. If we don't have a common frame of reference for that word, then the discussion of talent or innate musical ability or innate musicality cannot be included in a discussion of "virtuoso" technique".


Originally Posted By: King Cole
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Most here are aware of this, but "talent" discussion seems more interesting for most of us (including me) than discussing the rather naïve questions of the OP.


Naive you say? Well I apologize. We can't all be young pianists winning amateur chopin competitions like you my good man.

Hakki what is your definition virtuoso anyway? I know it may be hard to come down to us mortals but please enlighten us with your utter brilliance.



OK. First let me say that this happens from time to time with my posts.
English is not my native language and I might sometimes use incorrect words.

Let me just say that these (OP's first post questions) are not meaningful questions, because the answer is obvious. It takes many years to become a virtuoso provided that one has the necessary talent and correct teachers. And hence my reluctance to answer them.

As for my definition of virtuoso, well a simple Google search returns many reasonable definitions. But here are some examples from the past, near past and present, whom I would consider to have virtuoso technique:

Paganini, Liszt
Cziffra
Volodos, Hamelin, Wang

Hope this helps.


Excellent response. Thank you.

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#2063471 - 04/12/13 12:41 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: pianoloverus]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5353
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Derulux
I am absolutely certain that you were there in the room with Kissin when he was six. Or maybe have caught a video of him playing somewhere. (Did they have camcorders in 1977? I honestly don't know..) But if you were there, in my living room, when I was six.. you have officially just creeped me out for life
You mentioned your accomplishments at 8 s if to show Kissin's skill at 6 was not so amazing. One has to compare apples to apples. You hadn't played the piano at all at age 6 and he did at 6 what I previously described including playing a Chopin Ballade. At 8 you taught yourself to "play some Mozart pieces". I don't know what Kissin did at 8 but judging by where he was at 6 and the fact that he had been at Gnessin for 2 years he was undoubtedly light years beyond what you did at 8. Although both Kissin and you were talented, there is no comparison to where you were on the talent scale.

Originally Posted By: Derulux
Speaking of convincing.. to my first question, asking for evidence of "talent", you have yet to respond with any. Inference, certainly, but evidence? Not a shred. wink
I gave numerous examples of what the huge majority of people and virtually everyone on this thread would call talent. Since you don't even consider talent something that exists or can be measured no one can ever give you evidence of talent. Most would consider my examples of Kissin's talent self evident.


So, you would say that, at 8, Kissin was far more talented than me, right? On what would you base this assessment? Would you base it on what he was capable of playing--is that how you determine talent?

Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Hypothetical situation here: two students start playing piano at the age of 8. They have the same teacher. Both students remain with this teacher for five years. In this time, the students have maintained an equal passion and work ethic, but one of the students is noticeably better than the other. The kid has more talent than the other. See?



I can do better, I have a real-life anecdote.

I know a couple of identical twin brothers who are musicians, one is cellist, the brother plays violin. When they were kids, their father locked them each in a room and made them practice for hours at a time, didn't even let them out to [censored] "winkle". He knew the likes of Casals, he wanted his boys to be great musicians.

It's another fellow, a musician himself who grew up with them, who told me about their childhood, and he says that even when they were little it was evident that the cellist had that "something", something special. And today the cellist is a world-reknowned soloist, and the violinist while a professional musician plays in a small town orchestra.

Was one more talented than the other? For my part, I don't think that this situation proves anything of the sort. There are many factors that enter into the development of a child and in the end you can't know exactly why one develops the way he does. The relationship between each child and the father, or with their mother; the rivalry between the two; the relationship with the teachers.

The love of what they were doing at the time, the way they chose to practice, their focus and dedication levels while they were in the "room", what they did/liked/disliked/gravitated towards before they began this locked-room practice routine, what they thought about when they weren't in the room, what they did when they weren't in the room, etc etc etc.... You're right, there are far too many variables to consider, and when we can't (or don't want to) think of them all, we make up a mythological term to "cover our bases".

If someone showed me a study in which every variable were exactly the same, and we could reduce the experiment to 1=1, AND in that experiment one student out-shined the other, THEN I would be ready to consider the concept of talent. But such an experiment does not exist, and likely can never exist.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Praeludium

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.
I think what Kissin did at 11 months is not remotely close natural or normal for someone that age no matter how much they are exposed to music.

I don't think so at all. You act like he sang Bach as if he were Pavarotti. Likely, it is an exaggerated claim made by a biased observer (mother) that is being further exaggerated by the distance and time of parties who were not privy to the event itself.

For example, I overheard a mother say this: "My daughter can dance to Gangnam Style at 10 months!" When I observed the baby (and I actually did get a chance to do this), the baby put one hand over top of the other, and lifted it up in relative time, just like in the dance. But that was it. Now, if this child becomes a top dancer in the ballet, or a Rockette, or something of the sort, and someone else were to hear this story, they might think the 10 month old was standing up, dancing around the room just like Psy in the video. But it's not even close to what actually happened.

So, for example, Kissin may have shouted or tuned-in to a couple notes, which might not even have been the right pitch, but the mother makes the claim, and the rest is historical exaggeration. Will we ever be able to prove it? No, probably not. I've seen a very quick clip of him at what I think was 2-3 years old, but not at 11 months. But in all likelihood, it's probably closer to the truth than the idea that he could sing every pitch perfectly at 11 months.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2063483 - 04/12/13 01:09 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: wr]
Praeludium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/11
Posts: 92
Loc: Besançon, France
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Praeludium


[...]

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.



However, there are many people who grow up in musical households who exposed to musical influences from the beginning, but they still do not turn into "talented" musicians. Certainly being born into such a household can make an enormous difference, but it isn't the only deciding factor, or the world would have many, many more Kissins, IMO.



Of course I agree that it isn't the only factor, but in my mind it's certainly one of the most important (:
I mean, he couldn't have been born in a "better" familly in order to become a professional musician.

Also, I think we need to remember Kissin is not God, because after talking so much of him as an example of/argument for prodigious talent, we could think so (:
In fact, it's probable that there are musicians who are/were better artists and better pianists who haven't this kind of impressive stories to tell.


About the fact that he was singing a subject of fugue at 11 month, we'll probably never know how well he was actually singing so it's maybe better to not argue too much on it, isn't it ?
It's more an anecdote than anything else.



Have you ever thought about the likes of Berlioz and Wagner ?
How come two of the greatest composers of the XIXth century (and arguably of our history) weren't at all doing the kind of exploit those child prodigies do ?
And Berlioz wrote some pretty poor pieces of music when he was a teenager, so obliviously he wasn't the typical prodigy.
On the other hand, it's not like all child prodigies end up being remembered after their death...


Edited by Praeludium (04/12/13 01:11 PM)

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#2063843 - 04/13/13 03:22 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Praeludium]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Praeludium



Of course I agree that it isn't the only factor, but in my mind it's certainly one of the most important


Good morning. I am struck by the indifference that many people show to this factor. But the living link, the intimate communication between a child and his family is of no small importance in shaping their development. I find it curious that people pass over it so lightly.

Isn't it Kodaly who said, in response to the question as to at what age one should start a child's musical education: nine months before birth !

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#2063895 - 04/13/13 08:06 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Praeludium]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7983
Originally Posted By: Praeludium
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Praeludium


[...]

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.



However, there are many people who grow up in musical households who exposed to musical influences from the beginning, but they still do not turn into "talented" musicians. Certainly being born into such a household can make an enormous difference, but it isn't the only deciding factor, or the world would have many, many more Kissins, IMO.



Of course I agree that it isn't the only factor, but in my mind it's certainly one of the most important (:
I mean, he couldn't have been born in a "better" familly in order to become a professional musician.

Also, I think we need to remember Kissin is not God, because after talking so much of him as an example of/argument for prodigious talent, we could think so (:
In fact, it's probable that there are musicians who are/were better artists and better pianists who haven't this kind of impressive stories to tell.

About the fact that he was singing a subject of fugue at 11 month, we'll probably never know how well he was actually singing so it's maybe better to not argue too much on it, isn't it ?
It's more an anecdote than anything else.

Have you ever thought about the likes of Berlioz and Wagner ?
How come two of the greatest composers of the XIXth century (and arguably of our history) weren't at all doing the kind of exploit those child prodigies do ?
And Berlioz wrote some pretty poor pieces of music when he was a teenager, so obliviously he wasn't the typical prodigy.
On the other hand, it's not like all child prodigies end up being remembered after their death...


None of which addresses my point - which is that if being raised in a musical environment is what "talent" really is, why aren't all kids who coming out of the right kind of musical environment talented? Because they aren't.

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#2063906 - 04/13/13 08:41 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: wr]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Praeludium
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Praeludium


[...]

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.



However, there are many people who grow up in musical households who exposed to musical influences from the beginning, but they still do not turn into "talented" musicians. Certainly being born into such a household can make an enormous difference, but it isn't the only deciding factor, or the world would have many, many more Kissins, IMO.



Of course I agree that it isn't the only factor, but in my mind it's certainly one of the most important (:
I mean, he couldn't have been born in a "better" familly in order to become a professional musician.

Also, I think we need to remember Kissin is not God, because after talking so much of him as an example of/argument for prodigious talent, we could think so (:
In fact, it's probable that there are musicians who are/were better artists and better pianists who haven't this kind of impressive stories to tell.

About the fact that he was singing a subject of fugue at 11 month, we'll probably never know how well he was actually singing so it's maybe better to not argue too much on it, isn't it ?
It's more an anecdote than anything else.

Have you ever thought about the likes of Berlioz and Wagner ?
How come two of the greatest composers of the XIXth century (and arguably of our history) weren't at all doing the kind of exploit those child prodigies do ?
And Berlioz wrote some pretty poor pieces of music when he was a teenager, so obliviously he wasn't the typical prodigy.
On the other hand, it's not like all child prodigies end up being remembered after their death...


None of which addresses my point - which is that if being raised in a musical environment is what "talent" really is, why aren't all kids who coming out of the right kind of musical environment talented? Because they aren't.



Very good point.



I still can't believe people are arguing over this. How can anyone think talent doesn't exist? It all has to do with the individual's brain. Some brains are wired up so that music comes easily. Others it might be dance, or chess, or whatever it may be. People (their brains) are different, and with that comes different aptitudes.

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#2063908 - 04/13/13 08:59 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
Praeludium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/11
Posts: 92
Loc: Besançon, France
wr -> Maybe my answer wasn't well written enough.
I just meant that being raised in a musical household is one of the thing that can lead a child to learn music very quickly. Nobody said it was the only factor. An awful lot of other things count. That'd be why it's so rare to see child prodigies (I think child prodigies are over-rated anyway but that's not the subject) - it musn't be very often that all the right conditions needed are there.

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#2063949 - 04/13/13 10:40 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: wr]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5353
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Praeludium
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Praeludium


[...]

What is interesting in the fact that Kissin began to sing subjects from the WTC being 11 months old is that he was (extensively, I guess) exposed to such music and to persons who practice it right from the beginning of his life. When music is a part of you right from the beginning, no wonder it's as natural as walking.



However, there are many people who grow up in musical households who exposed to musical influences from the beginning, but they still do not turn into "talented" musicians. Certainly being born into such a household can make an enormous difference, but it isn't the only deciding factor, or the world would have many, many more Kissins, IMO.



Of course I agree that it isn't the only factor, but in my mind it's certainly one of the most important (:
I mean, he couldn't have been born in a "better" familly in order to become a professional musician.

Also, I think we need to remember Kissin is not God, because after talking so much of him as an example of/argument for prodigious talent, we could think so (:
In fact, it's probable that there are musicians who are/were better artists and better pianists who haven't this kind of impressive stories to tell.

About the fact that he was singing a subject of fugue at 11 month, we'll probably never know how well he was actually singing so it's maybe better to not argue too much on it, isn't it ?
It's more an anecdote than anything else.

Have you ever thought about the likes of Berlioz and Wagner ?
How come two of the greatest composers of the XIXth century (and arguably of our history) weren't at all doing the kind of exploit those child prodigies do ?
And Berlioz wrote some pretty poor pieces of music when he was a teenager, so obliviously he wasn't the typical prodigy.
On the other hand, it's not like all child prodigies end up being remembered after their death...


None of which addresses my point - which is that if being raised in a musical environment is what "talent" really is, why aren't all kids who coming out of the right kind of musical environment talented? Because they aren't.


For someone who seems to recognize there are other mitigating factors involved, and that "talent" can't possibly be the "only" thing that creates ability -- you certainly seem to want to ignore those other factors now in your above statement. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2064362 - 04/14/13 06:35 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Praeludium]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7983
Originally Posted By: Praeludium
wr -> Maybe my answer wasn't well written enough.
I just meant that being raised in a musical household is one of the thing that can lead a child to learn music very quickly. Nobody said it was the only factor. An awful lot of other things count. That'd be why it's so rare to see child prodigies (I think child prodigies are over-rated anyway but that's not the subject) - it musn't be very often that all the right conditions needed are there.



Well, it is getting rather tautological at this point, I think - the only set of "right conditions" is the one that produces the exceptional performer, and in fact, that's how the conditions are defined as being the right ones.

And you seem to be saying that it is all so vastly complex that the set of conditions producing such a performer is not something we can describe. But yet, even though you can't really say what all of these conditions may be, you somehow have figured out that whatever they are, none of them can possibly take the form of an innate predisposition for music, i.e., "talent".

Myself, I think that, given how it seems that genetic science is almost daily coming up with new information regarding how all sorts of aspects of our lives and personalities may be "innate" (that is, coded in our genetic makeup), I imagine that it's only a matter of time before a group of genetic markers are identified as a factor in musical "talent". That kind of thing is already happening in athletics. Once that happens regarding music, it will be interesting to see how its relative importance as a factor will be seen.

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#2064389 - 04/14/13 09:19 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
So anyone can compose on the level of Mozart with enough hard work? That argument just doesn't hold water.

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#2064414 - 04/14/13 10:26 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
King Cole Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/12
Posts: 33
Loc: Louisiana
Some of your arguments that talent is the deciding factor in all of this are absolutely fascinating. Talent has yet to been quantified, we don't even know the correlatives to talent. Does it mean that you'll reach a point and never make significant improvement? Does it mean that you'll learn things quicker?? Puleeeze! Jaques Lacan would love to do psychoanalysis on you guys because it's so obvious what's happening. If you didn't excel like other "gifted and talented" students then you can remove the psychological burden of blaming yourself for your failures and say well it must be talent which is completely outside of my control and so therefore its okay I'm not at fault, it is the mysterious forces of genetics that carries these people to their divine destiny of musical brilliance.

What if talent does play a large part? Consider the following the scenario. Two students starting at age 7 (like Liszt) study under the same teacher for 2 years. Student A practices 4 hours a day and Student B practices 2 hours a day. Student A plays a more difficult piece than Student B. Both students play in a recital and afterwards a member of the audience exclaims "Student B is very talented!"

Now what's wrong with this picture?


However to Hakki's point, if my questions weren't meaningful then the answers I've received were even more meaningless. Clearly many of you didn't even read my entire first post. It's pretty much asking what should one's daily practice routine look like but I digress. I'll just follow my teacher's customized syllabus


Edited by King Cole (04/14/13 10:28 AM)
_________________________
"What is genius? To aspire to a lofty aim and to will the means to that aim" -Nietzsche

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#2064424 - 04/14/13 10:49 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6226
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: King Cole
I'll just follow my teacher's customized syllabus


Good idea!
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2064435 - 04/14/13 11:14 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: King Cole
Some of your arguments that talent is the deciding factor in all of this are absolutely fascinating. Talent has yet to been quantified, we don't even know the correlatives to talent. Does it mean that you'll reach a point and never make significant improvement? Does it mean that you'll learn things quicker?? Puleeeze!

"For talent itself, in its most general sense-that exhibition of a strong bias toward some particular pursuit, may be defined, from its results, as simply: ability to learn with ease.

Tobias Matthay, "First Principles of PIANOFORTE PLAYING"

http://archive.org/details/firstprincipleso00mattiala

Click, PDF under, "View the book" and save to download a copy, the talent bit is on page 37.

Of course, being an English snobe (that's like a snob, but posher) I have a hard copy!


Edited by slipperykeys (04/14/13 11:56 AM)

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#2064453 - 04/14/13 11:58 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 530
I haven not read all the replies, but I believe that the ceiling on technique is genetically dependent to a great extent. I think of the top pianists in the world in the same way that I do the top athletes in the world. Some people have just won the genetic lottery and have the musculature, nervous system response, skills etc. that 99.9% of people in the world will never have, despite how much work they put into it. Everyone is NOT created equal, no matter how much we would like to believe it is true. There is an element of luck involved too. You need to be born into a situation where your inherent genetic talents and skills can be fostered and honed.

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#2064455 - 04/14/13 12:01 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3179

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#2064471 - 04/14/13 12:31 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: rocket88]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


There is a distinction between ability and talent.

For example, the most talented pianist in the world cannot play a piano if he doesn't have one.

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#2064491 - 04/14/13 12:56 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: slipperykeys]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


There is a distinction between ability and talent.

For example, the most talented pianist in the world cannot play a piano if he doesn't have one.


Good example.. if you were comparing it to a person lacking a larynx.

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#2064502 - 04/14/13 01:13 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: boo1234]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3485
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: boo1234
I haven not read all the replies, but I believe that the ceiling on technique is genetically dependent to a great extent. I think of the top pianists in the world in the same way that I do the top athletes in the world. Some people have just won the genetic lottery and have the musculature, nervous system response, skills etc. that 99.9% of people in the world will never have, despite how much work they put into it. Everyone is NOT created equal, no matter how much we would like to believe it is true. There is an element of luck involved too. You need to be born into a situation where your inherent genetic talents and skills can be fostered and honed.


Agree and well stated. The normal curve applies here as it does to just about every other facet of human endeavor. Training and disciplined practice can hone abilities, but cannot completely make up for the degree of innate aptitude someone brings to the table.

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#2064506 - 04/14/13 01:19 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: rocket88]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3485
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


right-- no matter how many singing lessons I take, I'll never sound like Renee Fleming or even Bette Midler ! smile (love them both)


Edited by sophial (04/14/13 01:19 PM)

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#2064510 - 04/14/13 01:24 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: JoelW]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


There is a distinction between ability and talent.

For example, the most talented pianist in the world cannot play a piano if he doesn't have one.


Good example.. if you were comparing it to a person lacking a larynx.


Not at all, a disabled person could be talented but unable to play the piano they have!

The first qualification is ability.

Talent is a different thing.

Perhaps this will help you grasp this tricky concept.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ability

""""" Ability is the mental or physical power to do something:""""


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/talent


""a. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.
b. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.""""


See how both words are applicable, for certain situations, but being able does not mean you have talent and being talented does not mean you are able.


Edited by slipperykeys (04/14/13 01:55 PM)

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#2064519 - 04/14/13 01:53 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: wr]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: wr
Once that happens regarding music, it will be interesting to see how its relative importance as a factor will be seen.




Good evening. For my part I don't see it as interesting at all, at least until playing piano becomes an olympic sport!

To me, it seems much more useful to have a good musical education more widely accessible, than to try to see how to select genetically-disposed specimens.

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#2064522 - 04/14/13 02:15 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: slipperykeys]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


There is a distinction between ability and talent.

For example, the most talented pianist in the world cannot play a piano if he doesn't have one.


Good example.. if you were comparing it to a person lacking a larynx.


Not at all, a disabled person could be talented but unable to play the piano they have!

The first qualification is ability.

Talent is a different thing.

Perhaps this will help you grasp this tricky concept.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ability

""""" Ability is the mental or physical power to do something:""""


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/talent


""a. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.
b. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.""""


See how both words are applicable, for certain situations, but being able does not mean you have talent and being talented does not mean you are able.


No don't worry, I completely get it. I understand what you're saying now. Let's say Lang Lang breaks his hands tomorrow, he will obviously still be talented. Talent lies in the brain, not the hands. (or larynx) I get it. smile

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#2064566 - 04/14/13 04:12 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: JoelW]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


There is a distinction between ability and talent.

For example, the most talented pianist in the world cannot play a piano if he doesn't have one.


Good example.. if you were comparing it to a person lacking a larynx.


Not at all, a disabled person could be talented but unable to play the piano they have!

The first qualification is ability.

Talent is a different thing.

Perhaps this will help you grasp this tricky concept.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ability

""""" Ability is the mental or physical power to do something:""""


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/talent


""a. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.
b. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.""""


See how both words are applicable, for certain situations, but being able does not mean you have talent and being talented does not mean you are able.


No don't worry, I completely get it. I understand what you're saying now. Let's say Lang Lang breaks his hands tomorrow, he will obviously still be talented. Talent lies in the brain, not the hands. (or larynx) I get it. smile


I have managed (at last) to copy the Matthey piece on talent, I hope this helps a bit, although of course, who knows, he may be wrong?

INTRODUCTORY. 37
"PIANO-TALENT"
Note IV.—For§§ 3 and 5, Chapter V., pages 32 and 34. Here once
again, is a point where natural endowment differs widely. Those who, without
effort, unconsciously give Attention with full purpose, possess indeed
•' talent" in the most important respect of all :

For talent itself, in its most general sense—that exhibition of a strong
bias toward some particular pursuit, may be denned, from its results, as simply
: ability to learn tvith ease.
Now our ability to learn anything, directly depends on the power of our
Memory— its impressionability, and its retentiveness ; and memorizing again
directly depends on the degree of Attention we can provide. Hence, it is,
that Power of Attention, or ability to acquire this, is synonymous with : good
memory, ease in learning, and in a word "Talent."
A few words of Summary, may prevent misapprehension with regard to
the question of Pianoforte '
' talent :
"

Special phases of endowment are needed in addition to general Musicality.
These are : a good " piano-voice "—the possession of a sufficiently ample
muscular endowment, combined with Ease in mental-muscular discrimination ;
a good " Ear," not only for Time, but also particularly for the discernment
of subtle distinctions in tone-quantity, and above all, in tone-Quality ; " Brains "
to enable Attention to be given, combined with a personal bias toward giving
the particular form of Attention demanded in playing.
These particular endowments are nevertheless not very far-reaching, unless
there be besides, a general endowment musically. Musical imaginativeness is
required, both emotionally and intellectually. Without that, nothing vivid
can be done, however excellent the other, the special, phases of Talent.
Moreover, even such endowments do not constitute a player. To succeed
as an Artist, we need besides all that, PERSISTENCE. That depends on
character, on our real love for the Art, and whether we possess Health sound
enough to stand the necessary close application.
For eventually, as Rubinstein once said to us Royal Academy Students
:
"real Hard Work is the only road to success."

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#2064587 - 04/14/13 05:11 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: JoelW]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5353
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: rocket88

Leaving the the talent/piano thing aside, apply "talent" to singing.

The concept that talent does not exist, and that one can achieve much improvement (or greatness) simply by working correctly and hard falls apart with singing.

You are either born with the pipes, or you aren't.

I don't have the pipes. But for decades I have faithfully worked hard to improve my singing, with 3 different teachers, and all it has done is make me a better lousy singer. laugh

I now have breath control, know how to shape the vowels, to pace the lyrics, etc, and, because of my other musical training, I know rhythms, repertoire, etc, but because I was not born with the pipes, I will never ever achieve the level of a gifted talented singer.


There is a distinction between ability and talent.

For example, the most talented pianist in the world cannot play a piano if he doesn't have one.


Good example.. if you were comparing it to a person lacking a larynx.

Sorry, but this is not an argument in favor of "talent". It has nothing to do with the premise of what "talent" is (according to those who have posted in favor of its existence), and we had agreed (at the onset) to leave physicality out of the discussion of "talent". It's like saying someone with a Ferrari F1 premiere race car is a better driver than someone with a street-sold 1984 Hyundai because they can complete the road course faster.

Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
Originally Posted By: King Cole
Some of your arguments that talent is the deciding factor in all of this are absolutely fascinating. Talent has yet to been quantified, we don't even know the correlatives to talent. Does it mean that you'll reach a point and never make significant improvement? Does it mean that you'll learn things quicker?? Puleeeze!

"For talent itself, in its most general sense-that exhibition of a strong bias toward some particular pursuit, may be defined, from its results, as simply: ability to learn with ease.

Tobias Matthay, "First Principles of PIANOFORTE PLAYING"

http://archive.org/details/firstprincipleso00mattiala

Click, PDF under, "View the book" and save to download a copy, the talent bit is on page 37.

Of course, being an English snobe (that's like a snob, but posher) I have a hard copy!

So, what you're saying is that, because someone developed the knowledge/ability of how to learn, they are more "talented" than someone who has not developed the knowledge/ability of how to learn? Still sounds to me like a lack of understanding in describing why someone "without talent" can't learn as well as someone "with talent". Which still indicates to me that no one has provided an accurate description of exactly what "talent" is. And, of course, there has been no evidence provided of its existence (that hasn't been easily refuted).
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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