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Thank you, Chris! Thank you, Isaac!

Yes, Chris. I'll send octaves and intervals next time. Thank you, both, for your comments.

--Andy

I preferred the bass you did by ear over the machine one.

Thanks, rxd! So did I! It was open and warm and enveloping, but then when I ran into that D3, I lost my confidence and went back to the machine. I thought the machine version seemed tight and "on," but somehow not as "musical" (?). (Or, "musically satisfying"? Something...)

Anyway, thank you so much for listening! Who knows what disasters I can make today, it being a new day, and all!

Correct, the machine driven sound a bit constrained, when comparing.

Confidence is important for the tuner (without excess

And you are more confident in your tuning the first time you play, so it sound better despite the tuning which is strange.

That is a trap when you get caught in your tuning and find it good, then play with sustain pedal engaged and cannot notice where it will be unaccepteable if played differntly or with less enthusiasm.

That damned pedal is to be left unused when checking your tuning, it makes like if someone is massging your back while you play, and one tend to loose its critical ear in the flow of sound.

Not to say that many times the piano needs a little voicing and the tuner can only obtain to some clarity and purity, with some hard spots under the surface of tone but when listening to tuning we dont take that aspect in account so much.

BUR, the better the tuning, the more unevenesses in tone or intervals will be perceived (hence the success of the WT among tuners that are not much experienced; that limits the ear ability to catch tuning defects)

It is not a bug, it is a feature ! Well done, in a particular situation and on the adequate instrument, they can provide an ambiance that please the listener.

Rarely on the modern concert piano , whose the tone have been cleaned and "purified" of its "defects" a lot.

If harmonically I get some meaning I will never complain about.
When one tonality suddenly sound as if the trousers where 2 size small then I cannot go along (and it happened almost any time I listened to recordings in UT's).

On a piece that use 2 chords if they are in the good mood for the temperament used, chances are that the result is pleasing, but musicians use generally more tonalities.

Wow, it's been awhile since I posted here!

I just re-tuned the M&H RBB to EBVT III. It had Ari's ET tuning on it for about 8 months.

When I post the recordings, I am trying to do a 'broadcast' quality tuning...it is NOT easy...lol. So with that in mind here are 5 new selections, all played on the LX by M.Garson, a great jazz pianist. One of the notes in the first selection, I could not get a clean sound. Prob the hammer needs some angle-shot voicing...don't know how to do that yet. The hammers have not been voiced since Ari's visit in August, 2012, they are due for it.

Another factor, I read about.... Olek talks about this in another thread, unisons. I found it fascinating, and I tried to do that in this set of recordings. I really focused on getting a clean "bloom" to sound throughout the length of the decay, not just after the initial blow. Bill Bremmer taught me to listen to the decay for a clean unison, and I think this builds on that. I did all the unisons by ear, except the very low bass notes and the 7th octave. I used the IPAD Verituner with the pre-set measured EBVT III tuning Bill Bremmer did for me. This measured tuning is specific for this M&H.

Fresh tuning started with No. 1, ends with No. 5, without cleaning any unisons up in between. For the most part, the tuning held up pretty well, considering I changed the temperament after 8 months.

A word about EBVT III and ET....I like them both....they both have things to offer that are very pleasing in different ways.

Just a refresh on this piano...it's a rebuilt 1927 Mason & Hamlin RBB, 7ft, with the Wapin Bridge conversion. It has Ari Isaac's Profundo Bass Strings, (incredible sound), and his "Classical West" hammers. Tokiwa action and shanks, Roslau treble wire, original soundboard. It has both an Ampico roll player and a modern LX solenoid playback system. Any and all comments are welcome!

For the recording, I used a Korg MR 1000 digital, with a pair of Avenson ST-2 mics. No processing etc to the files, except to "normalize" the tracks for loudness and balance.

Enjoy!



LX Selections

1. --Unexpected Song-- Andrewe LLoyd Weber played by M.Garson on a 1927 M&H RBB- EBVT III Temperament.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/t1a8oen2f2zqmziw6y4z

2. --Love Changes Everything-- Andrew LLoyd Weber-Played by M. Gason- on the LX System-EBVT III Temperament 1927 M&H RBB.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/ev77hvuoq6ivlz5b0qa9

3. Jazz--Solfegetto in C minor--Jazz- Played by M.Garson on LX System -1927 M&H RBB.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/y6ebybz03zs9jd70ep4j

4. Jazz--Rythym Etude-- Played by M.Garson on the LX System- 1927 M&H RBB- EBVT III Temperament.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/dymrml5z9ns11psvxxby

4. --Prayer for the Earth-- Played by M.Garson on the LX System- 1927 M&H RBB- EBVT III Temperament.mp3 https://www.box.com/s/uw4xco88edaouq7bbdth

5. --Don't Cry for Me Argentina--Andrew LLoyd Weber Played by M.Garson on the LX system-1927 M&H RBB-EBVT III Temperament.mp3
https://www.box.com/s/j1lcn6it1q8oah2k7e8m

I like the basses and find (you may have noticed that) how much they are made alive but your new unison tuning (yes there is a certain participation when the "bloom" (meaning the top specra) have been "combed"

I still miss some more density of tone at the attack, that will lenghten an thicken the bloom. If the hammers have some resource that should be possible but I doubt of it.

I am persuaded you are beginning to understand what I mean there.

The tone is beginning to have that "3d dimension" that is noticed expressive pianos.

Your octaves C#3-4 C3-4 B3-4 ... When you will be secure with unisons, do the same (by ear) with your octaves. that is exactly the same listening.

Did you notice that you begin to have a clear "attack" in the tone ?

Thanks for the recordings, the quality is very good.

Greetings

Thanks Olek, and your welcome....happy to share this experience with everyone. I appreciate your feedback and praise.

It's been a fun journey, learning from everyone here on PW, and the pro's that have come to visit and work on the piano.

Yes, the whole piano seemed to come alive even more by carefully tuning the unisons by ear this way. I was going for the clean attack, yes I can hear it now! What helped me to a great degree, was listening to your video on unisons, and the end result. I knew that the decay was needed to be clean, and I was made more aware of how important this is. When I heard it, I understood what you were going for. Before, as soon as I heard a relatively straight tone on a unison, I was satisfied. Now it's another level up from that....ear training!!


I have another pair of mics I have not used in awhile. In fact, they were the ones we originally used for the first posting of this thread. Rode NT5's. However, we had used the cardioid capsule at that time, Patrick (pppt) had suggested that. This time, I put on the omni capsules just to see what they sounded like. Interesting the difference in overall sound. The Avenson's I used for the above 5 Anrew LLoyd Weber pieces, are also omini mics.

My take on these NT5 omnis, I am hearing a slightly cleaner sound...perhaps a bit more real piano sound? You can really hear this with headphones. I use a very inexpensive headphone called Koss Porta-Pro. what do you all think of these mics compared to the Avensons?

The piano is holding much better than it ever has for me. I was very careful to tune from the flat side, with very little pin movement as was possible.

One question to all the tuners...when the string is already flat, assuming it's not an old piano that has not been tuned in years, does one need to drop the pitch slightly even more before pulling it up to pitch? I know it will help prevent string breakage by lowering first, but is it necessary for a stable tuning on a frequently tuned piano? BTW, since I started tuning back in 2004, I have only broken 1 string on C8, a very old rusty string upright...I have always dropped the pitch slightly first when tuning.




Rode NT5 Omini mics EBVT III

1. Jazz--Bach to Brooklyn Played by M. Garson EBVT III https://www.box.com/s/fy9h5yj8q3tkyxideyvq

2. Jazz--M.Garson 1 https://www.box.com/s/5lt9xskkgwvi3whxkysd


As a comparison between the 2 different mics, here is Solfegetto with the Rode's and the same one I recorded yesterday with the Avensons.

Sofegetto in C Minor Rode NT5 Omnis https://www.box.com/s/j3fur06mlo53dfudiu60

Solfegetto in C Minor Avenson ST-2 Omnis https://www.box.com/s/y6ebybz03zs9jd70ep4j

I prefer the Avenson Omnis. Better headroom. Sounds more natural and open.

I was just going to say something like that! The Avenson mics give a sound that is warmer, less brittle than what I hear in the Rode recordings.

Sounds really good, GP! Are the mics in the same position as the other recordings? I mean, are you using the NOS stereo technique?

Hi Andy....yes, same config that Patrick suggested back when i started this thread. Here is a pic of the Rode's....the Avensons I used yesterday/today, are basically in the same position, prob a little closer into the piano, no string cover in any of the recordings, inc the recent ones. 45 deg angle...you position them where they sound the best, by using your head, literally...put your head in the area, move it around, where it sounds the best, put the mics there in that config...this comes from Patrick.

After listening to it for awhile, I see what you guys are saying...the Rode is also a bit more in your face, less room acoustics....mic position was the same pretty much, just exchanged the mics, left the stands in the exact position. The Avenson's have the same transducer as the very expensive QTC mics.

Did anyone notice in the Solfegetto Avenson recording, at the beginning around 00:14' there is a car going up the street in the background?...it's like a 3d sound effect, with headphones that is....interesting.

I noticed the passing car!

I did my listening with both quality speakers (Paradigm) and two different headsets (Sennheiser & Audio Technica). In all listenings, I preferred the Avenson.

Your Mason is a truly fine instrument.

Grandpianoman,

Good morning, do you know of or have heard the Rachmaninoff re-performances issued by Zenph Inc. in 2009? They were recorded in both stereo and binaural simultaneously, with the stereo in front of the piano at approx.. 2 metres, and the binaural head at the performers position relative to the keyboard. I love listening to the binaural version, on headphones of course. There is so much more resonance to the instrument from that position. The stereo version is also wonderful on speakers, just different.

Marty,

Grandpianoman uses a basically binaural recording technique. Do you hear a difference when using headphones as opposed to speakers? I only am using headphones at the moment for the internet recordings. My system is in another room (KEF and Velodyne).

I also hear something else .. but tht was not why I wrote.

i dont know much in recording, but I saw a mike placement where one mike is in the curve of the piano, oriented toward the treble region, while the other is farther and oriented toward the bass bridge.

This is probably not making a very natural recording, but may be it can lower a little the percussive part ?

Did you try such position ?

When you record, I suppose you raise the mikes , I always have seen them at +- 2 meters from the floor, in similar orientation than on the pic, in front of the angle done by the cover. (possibly a typical German type of recording, with some space between mikes and instrument)

On the 2 last recordings, I like also the second, but the first is warm and certainly worth also. I did not though as much change could occur between 2 different mikes.

Same observation here. Currently at home listening (learning, hopefully) with tubes and big ole' horns (E-V Patrician 800's)

Your piano is in the room with me!

link http://www.zenph.com/the-music

Mwm,

Sure, there is a difference. There is a difference between the two headsets also. But, I'm accustomed to the differences with the equipment that I use. In each case, I prefered the sound package as recorded with the Avensons.

I prefer the Avenson pair as well. Amazing quality at the price.

As an aside, refering to your byline "And God said;...", was it her nemesis, aka Lucifer, that said "Let there be Mason & Hamlin in all its shimmering resonance" ?

Ahh, you picked up on that....Wow, some audiophles here!....great! I have been one since high school. Although since buying my M&H, my main speakers have been silent due to the poistion they needed to be in...the M&H is in the way. LOL. When I do some serious stereo listening, it's with a fantastic tube headphone amp, Woo Audio WA5 with a pair of AKG K1000 headphones. The WA5 was designed specifically for these discontinued headphones. However, most of the time, I just plug in the Koss Porta Pro's into my Ipad/Iphone. Also an avid STAX headphone fan.

I have not tried the mic position used in the Zenph recordings, prob because I don't have a dummy head and the correct mics for that. I have all 3 of the Zenph CD's and also enjoy listening to the binaural tracks.

I agreee with you all....the Avensons are sounding more realisitc and natural. That is one of their selling points, and yes, a great bargain for the $$. They use the same capsule as the very expensive QTC mics, and those are some great sounding mics on pianos, just super expensivo. They have a slight bit of background hiss, but I don't mind that at all, given how great they sound, and my living room is not a sound studio anyway,.....fridge sounds, cars going up the street etc. My fridge is like 20 yrs old and is very noisy...it's time for a new more efficeint and quiet one.

Zenph....I thought they had closed their doors....good to see that is not the case. I have their LX version of O. Petereson, Art Tatum, and their Glenn Gould Goldberg Variation CD's. It's fantastic to have them playing on my LX/M&H....uncanny really.

I find the music of Andrew LLoyd Weber to be very easy to listen to....the harmony and melodies are really beautiful. In EBVT III, it sounds great. John Williams, same effect.

Thanks Marty, I am so fortunate to have a piano like this M&H BB....I never thought that I would end up with a piano that sounds like this. A combination of several factors here that lead to this wonderful sound....a great piano to begin with, and it has its original soundboard and bridges. The piano was rebuilt and the 2 player systems were added, however, the sound greatly improved with 2 added additions....the Wapin bridge mod and Ari Issacs hammers...his bass strings as well, but they were already on there. Then along comes Bill Bremmer's EBVT, then Ari's ET....both great ways to tune a piano....a very happy camper here.

Isn't the piano an incredible instrument.

Nah, the Mason was extolled by choirs of angels.

And Lucifer said: Let there be Lester!