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#2055593 - 03/28/13 10:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Yeah that's a nice class did that one and still improvising on it. The good about it is that u only have 1 "chord" and 1 "scale". Somehow I find it hard top improv over for example a 2-5-1 in min. Let's say for example 2-5-1 in D minor played as:
E-b5, A7b9b13, D-.
Now we have for each chord another "basic" scale if I'm right (ofcourse one can play any scale if he wants to..). This will be: E Locrian #2, A Super Locrian, D dorian. Cause these have other notes it seems like my ear refuses to accept that there are 3 different scales played in one 2-5-1... while in a maj 2-5-1 one can use the same scale (in case you don't play the 1 lydian) cause the Major 1 scale gives you 2 Dorian and 5 mixolydian.

Anyway, talking about scales quick question. If you think for example of C min 7 b 5. You can think of a scale from C (locrian #2 mode) or melodic minor from Eb. Is there any reason not to think as in melodic minor from Eb.. because that's much easier. As you can also use your melodic minor scales for other chords like C7b9b13 one can start melodic minor from Db in stead of thinking "1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7".




Edited by Lost Woods (03/28/13 10:51 AM)

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#2055667 - 03/28/13 12:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 639
Loc: Chicago
At the jazz camp I attend, the pianist teaches just that:
Over half diminished, play melodic minor a minor third up.
Over altered dominant, play melodic minor a half step up.
Over regular dominant, play melodic minor a fifth up (lydian dominant).

That system never worked for me, but if it's easier for you it is clearly a good way to go.

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#2055740 - 03/28/13 03:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
lost wood,
I can make it simple for you.
over a minor 251, use harmonic minor. focus on easy scales and solid feel before moving on to fancy scales.

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#2056061 - 03/29/13 07:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
practice minor 251s in one key at a time, maybe 15 mins each key.
do it for 6 keys:
c d e f g a
those are the keys most common unless you will play with a singer, but even then, you should be able to fall within those keys.
practice improvising with mostly 8th notes, at about 72 bpm
then you can record and share.

when u have major 251 in 12 keys and minor in 6, you just need to add the occasional dominant chord and you're set for 80÷ of real book tunes.

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#2056069 - 03/29/13 07:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Thx I'll try that. Though still thinking my lines don't make any sense lol.
But with harmomic minor you mean over 2-5-1 in C for example, C harmonic minor?
Will work for 2 and 5 so thanks for that smile but for 1? The Ab and G don't go together and B and Bb will neither..?

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#2056130 - 03/29/13 10:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
no bb
b natural will work great. you can voice your c minor with either a or b.
c harm minor will work just fine.
also use a lot of arpeggios. 1357 and 3579.
then your lines will make sense.
later you will add melodic minor and all sorts of stuff, but harmonic minor is a simple way to navigate the minor 251s.

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#2056132 - 03/29/13 10:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
repeating again because it's super important.
develop great feel and time before fancy scales. noone hears scales but yourself and the occasional expert.
everyone hears time, feel and tone.

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#2056681 - 03/30/13 05:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Thanks again.
Mayb I'll post a little practice vid soon so some of you can see what I do (and don't) know. Cause you see me firing questions in this thread at will without knowing where I'm at wink
Only thing holding me back playing much is this elbow/underarm injury which is taking looong time. So only practice very short sessions lately.

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#2057009 - 03/30/13 06:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: entreri55]
PianoHarry Offline
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Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
Personally I don't think it is necessary. Or beneficial for that matter. Jazz is a musical style that is so far removed from classical that IMHO the jazz piano is a different instrument altogether.
I have been a jazz player for 35 years, have never had more than a passing desire to play anything else. From what I have learned I would say that jazz is conceptually different. It presents a series of challenges that playing classical music just does not prepare one to do.
And visa versa. Improvising over the most demanding chord progressions will not prepare a person for the complexities of classical music.
Finally, for my ear, and for want of a better word, most classical pianists that transition to jazz sound a little too white bread. And I want the bourbon and beans, man!

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#2057011 - 03/30/13 06:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: PianoHarry]
PianoHarry Offline
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Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia
Sorry, don't know how my post ended up here. Well, I do, I posted it. Unintentionally. I was responding to a question about whether one should have a foundation in classical music before playing jazz

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#2057012 - 03/30/13 06:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: PianoHarry]
peterws Online   content
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I think you`re right here. I don`t know of anybody who can do both to a state of excellence. But I bet there`s somebody out there . .

I did listen to a 9yo boy who was playing advanced classics. I mentioned this "broadeing of his horizons" subject as tactly as I could, on Youtube. His proud mother, she told me he already did . . . .!
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#2062496 - 04/10/13 05:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands


Am I right if I say Brubeck is switching here between F- and A- keys?
And if it's true, is there a certain reason this works so well? Sounds great, as my leadsheet is in E- (and I know the tune in E-) I have to switch beteween E- and Ab- or C- and E- I guess?

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#2062645 - 04/10/13 11:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: peterws]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
About classical music and jazz ... an observation is many fabulous jazz pianists studied classical music extensively. The thing is, the piano has history (and techniques that accumulate in that history) across several hundred years. Most of those techniques come from the classical tradition. Barry Harris, Fred Hersch, and Ethan Iverson still study with Sophia Rosoff. Madame Chaloff, in Boston, was the gateway to technique for several generations of pianists including Steve Kuhn, Jaki Byard, Kenny Werner, Hal Galper and a million others. Bill Evans was once quoted as saying something like "Bach will straighten you out quickly!" Keith Jarrett and Chick Corea have recorded classical repertoire. Herbie Hancock's mentioned many times that Ravel has been one of his major influences. Oscar Peterson and Paul Bley had very intensive classical training, as did Richie Beirach. There are a million others with this kind of experience as well. And Hal Galper wrote in one of his books that there's no real difference between jazz and classical technique.

So, all of that said ... it's up to any us as to what we might do all the techniques and styles and approaches the piano allows. In a totally different art form Bruce Lee said something like "Use what's useful and disgard the rest!" How we interpret that is up to us!

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#2065074 - 04/15/13 04:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Does anyone know what kind of solo left hand piano style brubeck is using here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVjE_izUa2M from 2:20

He does it a lot (also here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceiDpI_ZabA, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXBzaHAojgk)

Looks like just starting off with a chord on every beat? And later on jump between root and chord or something like that? It doens't sound too hard but therefore it's really nice for the ear I think especially with the block chord style of playing in the right hand.


Edited by Lost Woods (04/15/13 04:32 PM)

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#2065200 - 04/15/13 10:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Mark... Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
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Loc: Jersey Shore
After 6+ years I recently changed teachers. Assignment today is autumn leaves in the Real Book...I'm enjoying the change in teachers. On my 3 set of scale cords. C, F, B flat

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#2065544 - 04/16/13 12:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
LW,

He's using 4 to the bar, like you say chord on each beat, playing with time in the RH. Check out Erroll Garner for some great examples of this.
Sometimes also using a technique called "Faux Stride".

Dave Frank describes both in his video on advanced LH techniques.

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#2065637 - 04/16/13 05:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: knotty
LW,

He's using 4 to the bar, like you say chord on each beat, playing with time in the RH. Check out Erroll Garner for some great examples of this.
Sometimes also using a technique called "Faux Stride".

Dave Frank describes both in his video on advanced LH techniques.


Thx I've watched it before and watching it again. Very useful video it is. What I do see and was wondering about back then was: Dave Frank is using certain "inversions" of chords or even changing chords. Is there a certain rule about this? Cause with him is sounds great. I see him make switches between C-7 and C-6 for instance.. it's not just "4 beats same chord" somehow he's mixing it up, cause on the lead sheet there is C-7 for 8 beats which would sounds repetitive if I play it.

Btw: link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CGOSToQWv0 from 16:20.

Maybe odd question but does anyone know a pianist who's solo's are like chet baker? Cause I like his solo flows a lot sometimes much more than the "see how many notes I can fit in my solo" style of approach a lot of pianist happen to have. I know it's another instrument but still...

Btw I lend this "Solo Jazz Piano, The Linear Approach" book from the library.. can't wait to start with it smile

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#2065663 - 04/16/13 06:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Lost Woods]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
Lost Woods ... looking at horn player for piano inspiration is a great thing to do! If you get the Hal Leonard Chet Baker Artist Transcriptions and play the solos (all of them) along with the original recordings, you'll end up knowing how to play more or less like Chet Baker. That's probably a great idea for exactly the reason you mention.

The transcriptions, I'm sure, are in Bb. But with Transcribe can you can adjust the key of the recordings - so your piano can match to the transcriptions.

The goal would be to play the transcriptions up to speed and as close in phrasing as you can to the recording. Or you could sing the transcriptions instead of playing them. Or play AND sing.

The traditional way is transcribe the solos yourself. That said, the book gives you a lot of solos and really, the most important thing is get them in your ear. Learning EVERY solo in the book may sound excessive but it will teach you a lot about CB's style.

As you learn the solos play them at any tempo or out of tempo or whatever's helpful ... Play them w/your LF etc. The important thing: Get them lodged and stuck in your ears!

Hope this helps!

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#2065726 - 04/16/13 09:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Cause with him is sounds great. I see him make switches between C-7 and C-6 for instance..
LW,
most of the time, you'll try to create some variety with the thumb. That creates a bit of counter melody. It doesn't have to be complicated, but just simple step or half step movement will provide some interest.

Don't try to play as fast as DF is playing there, bring it way down. 72-80bpm is a good tempo to start. If you can control great at that tempo, bringing up to 160 will be no sweat. But if you can't play slow, you'll never really get to fix it at the faster tempos.

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#2066361 - 04/18/13 03:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Thanks again smile I think I'm figuring this thing called jazz piano out bit by bit with thanks to you all. The main problem I had was that I didn't know what inversion to play but with help of the first chapter "Solo Jazz Piano, The Linear Approach" book I know which register is best for laying down the chords.

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#2072189 - 04/27/13 03:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Little up: In the Solo Jazz Piano book from Neil Omstead, the 2-5-1.. the 2 in minor 2-5-1 is played RH as: 3,b5,7,1 with 1 as LH bass. Does anyone know why it isn't extended with a 9 or b9? Cause I'm used to playing the 2 with a 9 or b9.. this approach is new to me. In the major 2-5-1 the book tells u to play the 2min with 3-5-7-9 (so with the 9, as I'm used to do).

So for example in the book:
A-7b5 = A-Eb-G-A

I don't understand why this is used for the 2 in minor 2-5-1 cause the book tells about extensions and applies it to the other chords.


Edited by Lost Woods (04/27/13 03:08 PM)

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#2072295 - 04/27/13 05:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Lost Woods]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
Lost Woods, the information in books are maybe best described as guidelines based on what the author has found to be helpful. Sometimes what the author sees as helpful is something that can be described easily in the form of a rule. But rules, wherever they appear are just descriptions of common practice. As in "Bill Evans did it this way" or "Bud Powell did it that way."

Bottom line with all of this: Use your ear and experience! If books don't say anything about 9ths or other upper structures but your ear and experience tell you those things work and sound good. Well, in that case you've found real differences between learning from books and learning from experience. In the olden days, before all of the books we have now, learning from experience was the ONLY way!

I'm not at all saying that books aren't helpful or that learning from experience is the only way. Actually, if you look at a lot of books instead of only a few you'll start to see what's common to them all and what's unique to particular authors. And you may also start to recognise stuff that many authors omit. For one reason or another.

Maybe the best books of all are transcriptions of pianists. Because then, instead of reading someone's observations on Bill Evans or Dave McKenna or whomever (in the form of a rule or a guideline), you can just go right to the original source. Although in the olden days, those books didn't exist so anyone who wanted to learn this stuff transcribed it from records or stood behind a pianist to hear and see what they where doing (I was fortunate to be able to do that quite a bit with Dave McKenna and looking back at it, he never once asked anyone not to stand behind him!)

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#2072349 - 04/27/13 06:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Generally speaking, the 9th doesn't work as well on the 2 of a minor 2-5-1 as it does on a major 2-5-1.
So I'm not surprised that many books would suggest 1-3-b5-b7 or 1-4-b5-7b or inversions of.

But it's like printer says, you can definitely make it work.

But if you ask whether to use 9 or b9, I don't think you're going to get a straight answer.

So I'd say what the book says is a good starting point...

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#2072395 - 04/27/13 08:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
In this interview

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/interview-with-jim-mcneely.html

Jim McNeely explains how and why Dizzy Gillespie (and Barry Harris) advocate the natural 9 on top of a ii min7 flat5 chord. If you visit that page, do a search on Gillespie to find the passage. JM explains that DG heard ii minor 7 flat5 as a iv triad over it's 6th. So, in Cm, a D min7 flat 5 is an Fm triad over a D. For DG, that meant an E natural is/was THE note that sits on top of the F min triad (in C minor).

An example: Gigi Gryce's tune Minority where the melody note over ii minor 7 flat 5 is a natural 9th. And in John Mehegan's books (where so-called "A" and "B" voicings get their names), the natural 9 is in the ii minor 7 flat5 voicings.

There are also, of course, plenty of counter examples where a b9 and not a natural 9 goes over the ii minor 7 flat 5 chord. Almost always b9, if there, is part of a RH (or melody) line - rather than in a voicing.

So I'm w/Knotty: unless you go to an "old-style" source like Dizzy Gillespie or Barry Harris or John Mehegan, or unless you actually transcribe passages where this stuff exists (or get transcriptions out of a book) you're not going to get a "straight" answer! Actually, another place to look for answers is in the Charlie Parker Omnibook, which really is a Bible of what's possible.

Some other helpful stuff -

A Barry Harris tutorial: http://www.barryharris.com/instructional.htm

A post about BH:

http://jazzlearner.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/barry-harris-method.html

And at

http://jazzschoolonline.com/

go to the "Library" tab, - a lot of great material (free) there about BH's theory and applications.

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#2072614 - 04/28/13 03:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
But if you ask whether to use 9 or b9, I don't think you're going to get a straight answer.
The straight answer from Gary Burton is: check the tune. If the tune utilises a b9 then use it in your playing, if there's a 9 then use that. GB says "always" reference the tune in your solo.
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#2072627 - 04/28/13 04:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Lost Woods Offline
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Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
That's some great information guys laugh
The reason why I asked is because I wanted to know if there was like a "standard" how to practice these 2-5-1's in a practice routine.. but looks like it depends, so gotta know all options. Think I'll just practice the (3,b5,b7,1) one day, next day with 9 etc. until I'm good with all of them.

Gotta admit though "just" practising 2-5-1's isn't really fun.. but well, gotta know them so it doesn't matter if it's fun or not, practise practise practise!

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#2072795 - 04/28/13 12:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
Some more detail, detail. The Gary Burton approach is interesting because it might be described as "old school" in the sense of "know the original way before you even think about modifying it." That puts it in league somewhat w/the ("old-school") spirit of the Gillespie & Harris idea of ii minor 7 b5 being a iv triad (F minor) over a sixth (D).

In What is This Thing Called Love for the first 4 bars, Cole Porter originally wrote
C7 | | F min | |

But jazz practice turned those 4 measures into
Gm7b5 | C7 | F min 7 | |

The melody for WITTCL doesn't include a natural 9 or a b9. So prior knowledge of the tune doesn't help in this case with a choice in this case. And then, often as not, the Gm7b5 gets turned into a dominant chord with extensions. When that happens the b9 IS usually there.

In the Bill Evans transcription of Autumn Leaves (the one that's available in a few books ... or if you listen to it) you'll find Bill either plays NOTHING in the LH where the Am7b5 goes. Or he sometimes plays a G and C (the seventh and third of Am7b5) or G, C, and Eb (which some might say verifies the DG and BH theories). Sometimes Bill turns the Am7b5 into a dominant chord w/alterations. So his practice suggests at least three possibilities. Further you look at the lines he plays over those chords, you'll see a lot of Bb (the b9 of the Am7b5 chord).

If you look/listen at Herbie Hancock's version of Autumn Leaves (transcribed by Bill Dobbins) you'll find some REALLY interesting variants. For some Am7b5 places, Herbie plays an F and Bb (from bottom to top) in the LH and D and Eb and G (bottom to top) in the RH. That's a pretty common HH sound from MD and Blue Note days - you'll hear that kind of approach with McCoy Tyner as well.

Continue through HH's Autumn Leaves solo and things get even more interesting. Sometimes he uses a blatant Am7 where the the Am7b5 would go - actually that's pretty common with HH. He'll frequently transform min7b5 chords into min7 chords. In that case the fifth becomes an E rather than an Eb and it makes sense to use the natural 9 rather than b9. Herbie does A LOT with those kinds of ambiguities.

I know this is a lot to write about two "little" notes ... B or Bb .... but there's a lot of interesting jazz practice stuff bound up in that tiny and sometimes inconsequential choice and some of that practice makes a huge impact on how your ear might ear this stuff and therefore what you might (or might not) play.

Hope this helps!

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#2073239 - 04/29/13 01:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
printer1, which version of Autumn Leaves was that HH transcription? I just saw HH last Tuesday and what he was playing were the same figures he used in a live version of AL I've posted frequently. I really would like to understand everything he does.

Where is this transcription?
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#2073240 - 04/29/13 01:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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BTW I always tend to use natural 9 on half-dim unless the melody suggests otherwise. I think it has a more interesting sound/color. It's what I was taught. b9 tended to be used in the older styles of jazz. There's a little discussion of it in Mark Levine's book (he goes for Nat 9 as well).
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#2073293 - 04/29/13 05:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee, I'm gonna guess the Bill Dobbins transcription (published by Advance Music if you want that bit) is from a recording called "Miles Davis in Berlin" or from "Miles Davis at Antibes" or possibly from "Miles Davis in Tokyo."

Just a little more about that b9 vs. natural 9 thing. You say "b9 tended to be used in older styles of jazz." Well, you're probably right. But Dizzy G and Barry H, since the 1940's have that theory (Barry Harris has explained it in particular) where the 9 on iimin7b5 is natural and not flat. So that's going back pretty far to the time when upper extensions were becoming part of the common language.

Red Garland: on What is This Thing Called Love - he play Eb over one Dm7b5 and he plays E natural over the next Dm7b5. And he outlines the opening chord (which is most commonly Gm7b5) very clearly as a G min 7 (no flat 5).

Herbie, in Autumn Leaves (and really McCoy Tyner's style), where he voices a chord in 4ths including a b9 over the Amin7b5 - well, that modal approach to that chords w/ voicings in 4ths is very common.

It's worth pointing out that basic voice leading has a big role in all of this. Because the DG/BH school of "always the natural 9" or other approaches of "look at the source material to know which one to use" in my opinion treat chords and lines as static things over which other things get piled up. So-called chord scale theory is similar in in that sense ... ("put that scale over that chord or put this scale over this chord!")

But there is a sense of voice leading and counterpoint in jazz, just as there is in classical music. Through voice leading and counterpoint, any of the chords we're discussing are fluid , flexible and highly-changeable and subject to extensive alterations . Which means which notes get played for one chord or another depend on a larger sense of what's going on in the music than just a note over a chord according to some rule or another. A concrete example might be something like Bill Evans where the b9 shows up over the a iim7b5 because the larger context is b9 is a minor third in the overall key and the iim7b5 sort of points to a minor key and ....

One more (stolen) example ... from the Rite of Spring

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/chords.png

perhaps for Gm7b5 and C7

Play the opening melody of What is this Thing over the example and try it perhaps w/a bass player. Its dissonant (and maybe it lives best in a Richie Bierach / Dave Liebman kind of style) but also ... (fill in the blank w/your own description). If you do fill in the blank be kind smile

Hope this helps!

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