Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2062864 - 04/11/13 11:31 AM Chopin 4th Ballade
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
Hi,

I'm learning this piece now and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or opinions on the piece that they'd like to share, and if anyone had any advice in learning it.

Thanks very much. smile
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2062866 - 04/11/13 11:37 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
-- It's a great, great piece.

-- It's very hard.

-- The hardest parts might be the ones that seem easiest. I think most listeners (including judges and auditioners) lose interest in most performances before even getting to the "hard parts."

-- Don't feel like it's learned just when you have the notes.

-- Plus, the notes are very hard to have. grin

Don't let any of this stop you. But realize that the piece is a very major challenge. The good news is that it will keep 'giving' for the rest of your life. smile

Top
#2062875 - 04/11/13 11:50 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Just don't ask Mark about the 4th scherzo.

Just kidding. I enjoy reading his essays every time. grin




The 4th ballade? It scares the crap out of me. I cannot express how intimidating it is to me. I don't even feel that way about the 4th scherzo or 3rd sonata, which are probably just as difficult. But I don't know, something about the 4th ballade...

Top
#2062876 - 04/11/13 11:54 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
rada Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/07/06
Posts: 1124
Loc: pagosa springs,co
It's one that I have decided to learn as well. So while I can enjoy reading through the easier sections I know have a lot to tackle with the difficult passages. For me it's a matter of tearing it apart and then putting it back together. I believe it is 18 pages so probably half of those need lots of practice. Have fun.

rada

Top
#2062928 - 04/11/13 01:42 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: JoelW]
fnork Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1709
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Just don't ask Mark about the 4th scherzo.

Don't be so discouraging here, I'm optimistically considering learning this for a masterclass fairly soon and a competition later on wink

As for the Ballade, well...it's a huge undertaking indeed. As has been said already, one of the issues is to maintain interest and not lose momentum. In the following book, I remember reading various useful remarks by Samuil Feinberg and others on this piece (as well as plenty of other pieces by Chopin): http://www.amazon.com/The-Russian-Piano-School-Conservatoire/dp/1871082889
_________________________
http://www.martinmalmgren.com/

Top
#2063003 - 04/11/13 04:19 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
This is possibly my favorite piece in the entire repertoire. I could talk on and on about it, and most likely fill several books. I chose my username partly because of it. smile (it's one of Chopin's most contrapuntal works). There is not a note out of place. Technically and musically, it is the hardest of the four ballades, as with the fourth scherzo relative to the other scherzos. It's amazingly rewarding to play, once you've learned it; but be warned you have a lot of hard work ahead of you. Practically everything about the piece is difficult, and amazingly beautiful when played well. The first several pages are technically easy, but you are so exposed that even if you don't miss a single note, every tiny slip in tone color or phrasing sticks out like a sore thumb. There are many double note passages that need to be worked on meticulously in order to achieve clarity within each line and with the passage as a whole. There is also a section with several tricky polyrhythms bunched into the space of a few bars, and then a transitional passage with a lot of fast right hand fingerwork, which leads into the first emotional climax of the piece (first because the coda is also a climax, in a different way). This section is so beautiful that it still often brings me to tears when I play it or hear it played. Following it is a section with huge arpeggios and fast sequences of chords, transitioning from D flat major back into F minor. After the five hushed pianissimo chords and a long pause comes the coda, which is chock-full of extremely difficult double note passages, including the infamous two bars of ascending chromatic thirds. There are no words to describe how brilliant Chopin's conception was in this coda, and indeed in the whole piece. After a gradual accelerando, those climactic unison arpeggios come crashing down on each other, and the piece ends in an explosion of pathos.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063067 - 04/11/13 06:58 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Easy peasy :-).

Just kidding, haha. It's hard. But don't allow yourself to be intimidated by it, you will never do it justice that way.

Learn the coda first.

Top
#2063071 - 04/11/13 07:01 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey

Learn the coda first.

I disagree. Learn the other double note sections first, and the coda will become easier.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063076 - 04/11/13 07:07 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
This is possibly my favorite piece in the entire repertoire. I could talk on and on about it....

....and I'm glad you did talk for a while about it -- that was a great post. thumb

And here's a little bonus for Hopinmad: smile
Discussion of the most remarkable 2 measures in all music

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: debrucey

Learn the coda first.

I disagree. Learn the other double note sections first, and the coda will become easier.

I'm with Debrucey.

I think there are two things that are especially good ideas to work on first when you pick up a piece:
-- the ending, or
-- whatever you think will be the most challenging part

With this piece, the coda fits both.

Top
#2063103 - 04/11/13 08:17 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and I'm glad you did talk for a while about it -- that was a great post. thumb

Thanks. smile

Oh my gosh, yes. They are amazing in every way possible: rhythm, texture, sheer beauty...
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

I'm with Debrucey.

Whatever floats your boat.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063138 - 04/11/13 09:20 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Whatever floats your boat.

It doesn't float my boat, but it does work better. grin


Hey, I don't even have a boat.... ha

Top
#2063233 - 04/12/13 01:01 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Auntie Lynn Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: San Francisco, CA
It takes 20 minutes to play, two years to learn and 20 years to mature. If you stay with it, it will be one of the most rewarding efforts of your life...

Mwah!

Top
#2063241 - 04/12/13 01:26 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Auntie Lynn]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Auntie Lynn
It takes 20 minutes to play....

.....twice grin


(Actually that would usually be more like 21-22 minutes....)

Top
#2063339 - 04/12/13 08:28 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Mark_C]
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
Thanks for all your responses. I started out (I actually started learning it about a week ago) learning the coda. It's not too bad - as with a lot (if not all!) of Chopin it "fits" under the hands very well. I have more difficulty with the two pages before the four up and down hands together arpeggio sweeps, probably because I find it harder to play it quietly and convincingly. A similar remark probably applies to where the main theme (C F E Bb D) comes in again but with the inner notes included as well. Also I find the very first bit (and where it comes back in A major) hard to play nicely.


Also,



Those two measures are incredible! But my favourite two measures I think are measures 51-52.

ALSO: Post 1000!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

Top
#2063440 - 04/12/13 11:25 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
I love this piece, from the beg to the end. But knowing how demanding and how difficult this piece, should not we ask ourselves whether at the end of the day that we will satisfy with the quality of our playing? If at the end of the day our quality of playing only 40% of that of professionals, will we satisfy? The answer is personal choice. One time I wanted to learn Rachmaninoff Prelude Op. 23 No. 5, my teacher did not think that I will be able to play well (Play well means it does not sound amateurish), he really discouraged me from learning that piece.

Top
#2063447 - 04/12/13 11:39 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
DonaldLee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 143
I would say start learning the notes and then let it marinate for a long time. Let's say it took you 2 months to learn all of the notes, then I would be listening to it, studying the score, recording yourself and listening, going to teacher with every now now and then for a few more months (maybe even a year, who knows with these things?). After all of that, I would say that you would be ready to start performing it. With each performance it will get more and more settled, and eventually, it will truly be your own.

Donald Lee III
_________________________
Currently working on:
Brahms Op. 118
Mozart Sonata K. 576
Bach Prelude and Fugue in b-flat minor (WTC Book I)
Balikerev Islamey



Top
#2063541 - 04/12/13 03:07 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: hopinmad
...my favourite two measures I think are measures 51-52.

Ah yes. One of the places where Chopin shows his contrapuntal genius.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063557 - 04/12/13 03:34 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Auntie Lynn
It takes 20 minutes to play....

.....twice grin


(Actually that would usually be more like 21-22 minutes....)


Once... if you're modern-day Pogorelich.

Top
#2063560 - 04/12/13 03:39 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Auntie Lynn
It takes 20 minutes to play....

.....twice grin


(Actually that would usually be more like 21-22 minutes....)


Once... if you're modern-day Pogorelich.

Did he ever play it? wink

By the way, we should start a Chopin Ballade group, for myself and other Balladiacs (is that a word? wink ). Who's up for it? smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063572 - 04/12/13 03:54 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Auntie Lynn
It takes 20 minutes to play....

.....twice grin


(Actually that would usually be more like 21-22 minutes....)


Once... if you're modern-day Pogorelich.

Did he ever play it? wink

By the way, we should start a Chopin Ballade group, for myself and other Balladiacs (is that a word? wink ). Who's up for it? smile


Anything Chopin, I'm in. ha

What exactly is a 'ballade group'?

Top
#2063575 - 04/12/13 03:56 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Anything Chopin, I'm in. ha

What exactly is a 'ballade group'?


A private forum to discuss the ballades. I've invited you to it. I will also invite anyone who is interested: just post here or PM me. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063629 - 04/12/13 05:20 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
You should also have invited me! This is my ballade thread! laugh
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

Top
#2063634 - 04/12/13 05:27 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6219
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: hopinmad
You should also have invited me! This is my ballade thread! laugh


and I bet you're hopinmad !!!! grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2063646 - 04/12/13 06:03 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
I didn't start the private message 'thread', but is there a way I could invite you guys? Poly isn't on.

Top
#2063720 - 04/12/13 09:29 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Sorry, I had to log off earlier. Hopinmad, I thought a feature existed that didn't; I guess I can't add people to the thread. Maybe we should just make it a public regular thread in the forum. Sorry about that. mad
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063723 - 04/12/13 09:35 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Sorry, I had to log off earlier. Hopinmad, I thought a feature existed that didn't; I guess I can't add people to the thread. Maybe we should just make it a public regular thread in the forum. Sorry about that. mad


Go for it. It seems more sensible actually. Instead of having to be invited, anyone can pop right in and say what they want.

Top
#2063732 - 04/12/13 09:47 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Okay. Sounds good.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2063813 - 04/13/13 01:09 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2117
Loc: Canada
It's tough, but it's probably best to learn it early and then have it grow inside of you as you mature.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

Top
#2063853 - 04/13/13 03:58 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
About a month ago somebody mentioned Richter and Chopin's ballade 4. and I did a google search and found the youtube of it. Thanks for keep the thread public because it is already very interesting. As a beginner hanging out in a thread like this and reading the posts is an awesome education on so many levels. Thanks.

Top
#2064144 - 04/13/13 05:29 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Auntie Lynn]
kuifje Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 110
Originally Posted By: Auntie Lynn
It takes 20 minutes to play, two years to learn and 20 years to mature. If you stay with it, it will be one of the most rewarding efforts of your life...

Mwah!


Just in my 2nd year now. So far i got until about bar 167.

Top
#2064563 - 04/14/13 04:02 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2626
Loc: Netherlands
a few thoughts: it is a masterpiece by a great master, but he wrote more of the same caliber, why this quasi-mythical status of the 4th ballade? I prefer the 1st, or the 2nd/3rd sonatas, or the barcarolle...It has it's difficulties, technically and musically indeed, as much as a Mozart-sonata, the Goldbergs, the Kinderszenen, may be not in the same quantities, but nevertheless. It's 'holy' reputation is a miracle to me, it's a pinnacle in the repertoire, indeed, as are so many other pieces, there are thirds in the coda, or difficult passages in the variations of the main theme, or some tricky negotiations of the climax of the 2nd theme, well, ok, fine.
It is quite hard to bring it all together as a whole, fine, what about the Liszt-sonata? It's 'just' one of the staples of every serious pianist's repertoire, and should get everyone's attention, but that applies to so many other pieces, it's a pianist's 'duty' to pay attention to it, and to all the other material left to us: we, humble reproducers of the great masters of days gone by.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Couperin pices, Ravel tombeau de C

Top
#2064603 - 04/14/13 05:34 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 936
Loc: California
Leif Ove Andsnes played the Ballade at Wigmore Hall on April 9. Here is a link to a recording (audio)

BBC Radio 3 Andsnes recital - Chopin

The entire recital can be heard also. He played Beethoven, Bartok, Liszt, and more Chopin.

Top
#2064614 - 04/14/13 06:10 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Ferdinand]
DameMyra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1940
Loc: South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
Leif Ove Andsnes played the Ballade at Wigmore Hall on April 9. Here is a link to a recording (audio)

BBC Radio 3 Andsnes recital - Chopin

The entire recital can be heard also. He played Beethoven, Bartok, Liszt, and more Chopin.


Thank you for the link!
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher
MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA

Top
#2065236 - 04/15/13 11:26 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: dolce sfogato]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 118
Cortot’s edition has a really nice suggestion for the passage at mm 223 and 225. In the 2nd through 6th triplets, he suggests taking the single notes in the right hand with the left hand instead. It makes for a nice climbing pattern where the notes (E-flat, G-flat, E-flat above) and (A, C, A above) span an octave and can be fingered easily with 5-4-1.

Top
#2065240 - 04/15/13 11:33 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Goomer Piles]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Cortot’s edition has a really nice suggestion for the passage at mm 223 and 225. In the 2nd through 6th triplets, he suggests taking the single notes in the right hand with the left hand instead. It makes for a nice climbing pattern where the notes (E-flat, G-flat, E-flat above) and (A, C, A above) span an octave and can be fingered easily with 5-4-1.

I do a different 'swindle' in those measures, as suggested by one of my teachers:
I take the previous two lower 'R.H' notes in each instance with the L.H., but not the notes you said.

But I'm going to try what you said.

Top
#2065245 - 04/15/13 11:42 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
I think it should be played the way Chopin intended it to be played; it can be voiced best that way. Why screw around with that for a cheap technical swindle?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065247 - 04/15/13 11:44 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I think it should be played the way Chopin intended it to be played....

Here we go again. ha

(All I mean is, this is an old -- and very respectable -- debate.) smile

What you said is based on the assumption that the clef notation necessarily means "how it is to be played." Many people feel that's absolutely untrue. I think it's only -- only -- to show what's going on musically, but you can play it with your nose if you feel you can do it better that way. After all, this isn't an etude....

Top
#2065252 - 04/15/13 11:58 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I think it should be played the way Chopin intended it to be played....

Here we go again. ha

(All I mean is, this is an old -- and very respectable -- debate.) smile

What you said is based on the assumption that the clef notation necessarily means "how it is to be played." Many people feel that's absolutely untrue. I think it's only -- only -- to show what's going on musically, but you can play it with your nose if you feel you can do it better that way. After all, this isn't an etude....

You don't see that the way it's written is clearly the way the voice leading works?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065255 - 04/16/13 12:00 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
You don't see that the way it's written is clearly the way the voice leading works?

Sure! Didn't you think I was including that in "what's going on musically"?

I guess you think that's synonymous with 'which hand to play things with.' There's a very large contingent that doesn't agree.

Top
#2065265 - 04/16/13 12:14 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Oh I love that song!! crazy

But seriously, just love the piece and love the journey it will take you as you learn to tackle the technical difficulties and musical depths of it. smile Also, make sure the melodies feel like a singing voice.

Top
#2065272 - 04/16/13 12:34 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
You don't see that the way it's written is clearly the way the voice leading works?

Of course I do! Didn't you think I was including that in "what's going on musically"?

I guess you think that's synonymous with 'which hand to play things with.' What I'm telling you is, there's a very large contingent that doesn't agree.

And you're part of that group?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065275 - 04/16/13 12:35 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
I certainly am. Although I never thought of that solution, I might try it.

Top
#2065281 - 04/16/13 12:56 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I certainly am. Although I never thought of that solution, I might try it.

What is the musical justification for it? The fact that it makes it a little easier is a very bad reason...
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065291 - 04/16/13 01:16 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
No it's not. It's a very good reason.
If the musical result is the same, which in this case I'm convinced it would be, there doesn't need to be a musical justification.

Top
#2065294 - 04/16/13 01:18 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
No it's not. It's a very good reason.
If the musical result is the same, which in this case I'm convinced it would be, there doesn't need to be a musical justification.

But the musical result isn't the same. You get different voicing, and the RH sounds disconnected, while the LH arpeggios become too prominent.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065295 - 04/16/13 01:28 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
You don't get a different voicing if you are skilled enough to control the sound.

Top
#2065298 - 04/16/13 01:33 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
You don't get a different voicing if you are skilled enough to control the sound.

That's an ignorant thing to say. There will always be a subtle difference and no pianist in the world can control that. Why don't you post recordings of you doing it both ways and I will tell you which one is which.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065301 - 04/16/13 01:38 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
I never said I was talking about myself.

If no pianist in the world could control subtle voicings then playing fugues would be impossible.

Top
#2065302 - 04/16/13 01:39 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I never said I was talking about myself.

If no pianist in the world could control subtle voicings then playing fugues would be impossible.

Not so. Fugues are designed to be played the way they are played. Chopin did not designate that passage to be played in this manner.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065304 - 04/16/13 01:42 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Irrelevant.

Top
#2065305 - 04/16/13 01:44 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Irrelevant.

Not at all. Fugues are written so that it will be feasible to play them as the composer intended with the tools available (2 hands). Also, you don't debate by dimissing people's arguments without refuting them. That's what children do.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065306 - 04/16/13 01:45 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
I haven't dismissed your argument.

Top
#2065307 - 04/16/13 01:47 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
You answered it with "Irrelevant", so yes, you did. Plus, it's not irrelevant.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065308 - 04/16/13 01:48 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
No I didn't.

In my opinion the fact that Chopin didn't designate a passage to be played with a particular rearrangement among the hands (if indeed that is even arguable) is irrelevant.

This doesn't mean I dismissed your argument, merely that I disagreed with it.


Edited by debrucey (04/16/13 01:51 AM)

Top
#2065312 - 04/16/13 01:51 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
All right, well, be that as it may, the fact that Chopin split up the passage in a certain way between the hands means that he intended it to be played that way. A minute difference in technical difficulty does not give a pianist the license to change that. Tell me, which pianist plays it the "alternate" way and makes it sound the same as what Chopin wrote?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065313 - 04/16/13 01:52 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19657
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
....you don't debate by dimissing people's arguments without refuting them. That's what children do.

But Poly, you've made it hard to get anywhere by seemingly ignoring (or forgetting) things that have been said. Your basic premise seems to be that if a composer puts notes on a certain clef, it means they are intended to be played by a particular hand. We're saying that many people just don't accept that principle.

You're presenting arguments for why you think your 'rule' is good. Obviously those who don't accept the rule feel that other things can outweigh the considerations you're mentioning.

Top
#2065314 - 04/16/13 01:53 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
By the way, I'm going to sleep in a few minutes, so we can pick this up tomorrow if you be so inclined.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065315 - 04/16/13 01:55 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
....you don't debate by dimissing people's arguments without refuting them. That's what children do.

But Poly, you've made it hard to get anywhere by seemingly ignoring (or forgetting) things that have been said. Your basic premise seems to be that if a composer puts notes on a certain clef, it means they are intended to be played by a particular hand. We're saying that many people just don't accept that principle.

You're presenting arguments for why you think it's good to follow your 'rule.' Obviously those who don't accept the rule feel that other things can outweigh the considerations you're mentioning.

All right. I feel this conversation is not getting anywhere, so have it your way. Even if you disregard the way Chopin wrote it, I think that the passage is clearer and more appealing when the middle notes are taken with the RH as written.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065316 - 04/16/13 01:56 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
"All right, well, be that as it may, the fact that Chopin split up the passage in a certain way between the hands means that he intended it to be played that way."

Not necessarily. I see no reason why this can be so confidently stated.

Surely the fact that this alternation is new to me despite all the recordings I have listened to shows that it's not so easy to tell the difference as you suggest.

I've already made numerous other rearrangements in other areas of the piece (none of which anyone has noticed), so adding one more doesn't bother me. 'Pianistic license' is a bit of a silly concept in my opinion, and is certainly not something that ever keeps me awake at night. To me, taking something with the other hand is no more drastic than changing a fingering.

Top
#2065317 - 04/16/13 01:57 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
....you don't debate by dimissing people's arguments without refuting them. That's what children do.

But Poly, you've made it hard to get anywhere by seemingly ignoring (or forgetting) things that have been said. Your basic premise seems to be that if a composer puts notes on a certain clef, it means they are intended to be played by a particular hand. We're saying that many people just don't accept that principle.

You're presenting arguments for why you think it's good to follow your 'rule.' Obviously those who don't accept the rule feel that other things can outweigh the considerations you're mentioning.

All right. I feel this conversation is not getting anywhere, so have it your way. Even if you disregard the way Chopin wrote it, I think that the passage is clearer and more appealing when the middle notes are taken with the RH as written.


Conversations tend not to go anywhere when one of the participants ignores most of what the others are saying.

Top
#2065388 - 04/16/13 07:55 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
I feel that this is an argument we'll never agree on, no matter how long we go on about it, because it sounds like we have different premises for the question in the first place.
Originally Posted By: debrucey

Surely the fact that this alternation is new to me despite all the recordings I have listened to shows that it's not so easy to tell the difference as you suggest.

No, it doesn't show that. What it shows is that very few (if any) professional pianists use this "new" fingering.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065447 - 04/16/13 10:40 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Good excuse to pull this out..


Top
#2065455 - 04/16/13 10:50 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: Polyphonist]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 118
A few things:

Cortot endorses the redistribution I mentioned for 223/225 as his personal choice and says it’s a guarantee of an ‘audaciously gleaming’ execution.

The technical difference is not ‘minute’ at all.

I don’t think anyone could tell the difference in a recording or even live. This measure is loud and frenetic, and a skilled pianist can control slurring and voicing.

So how about m 128 - the 4th and 6th semiquavers of the right hand? Sure they’re part of the right hand’s voice, but it’s a very awkward reach. Giving them to the left hand isn’t just easier, it’s more musical. (Cortot is silent on this, but that variant is shown in some editions.)

‘More musical’ is a good enough reason for me. This isn’t an etude, so trying to conquer a technical detail at the expense of the music doesn’t make sense to me.

Top
#2065625 - 04/16/13 04:11 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Oddly enough the passage that you mention is one of the places where taking something with the other hand would quite obviously make it technically easier, but in the end I decided against it. I can't recall why.


Edited by debrucey (04/16/13 04:11 PM)

Top
#2065626 - 04/16/13 04:14 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
I think anyone who knows me around here knows that my favorite pianist is Bunin. This is the best rendition of the 4th ballade I have ever heard. Have a listen and tell me what you think.




Top
#2065720 - 04/16/13 08:56 PM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Oddly enough the passage that you mention is one of the places where taking something with the other hand would quite obviously make it technically easier, but in the end I decided against it.

A wise decision!
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065796 - 04/17/13 01:20 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
I'm sure it was for a wiser reason than 'because thats the way Chopin wrote it!'

Top
#2065807 - 04/17/13 01:39 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
I'm not going to argue over this anymore; it's a waste of my time.


Edited by Polyphonist (04/17/13 02:12 AM)
Edit Reason: Removed unintentional rhyme
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065808 - 04/17/13 01:50 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
Nice little poem there :P lol

Top
#2065812 - 04/17/13 02:04 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Nice little poem there :P lol

Not intentional! Oh well-I guess I'm just an instinctive brilliant poet. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065814 - 04/17/13 02:06 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
I wouldn't go that far. You did use a half-rhyme :P

Top
#2065817 - 04/17/13 02:11 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: debrucey]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I wouldn't go that far. You did use a half-rhyme :P

Forget it, I'm going to edit the post. ha

_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065819 - 04/17/13 02:14 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7514
Loc: New York City
Oh no! Now it rhymes with my edit reason! wink This is getting ridiculous...
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2065859 - 04/17/13 05:52 AM Re: Chopin 4th Ballade [Re: hopinmad]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Ballade 4 Opus 52

For what it’s worth chaps ... from measure 8 (mezza voce) the lowly LH “f” echoed an octave higher
should be regarded as being HALF NOTES ...
making the blocky inner chords into a
RHYTHMIC IN-FILL.

I did it my way!

Regards, btb

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
130 registered (a-z0-9, accordeur, 36251, 41 invisible), 1572 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75579 Members
42 Forums
156270 Topics
2294989 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need progression lesson
by Maarkr
42 minutes 2 seconds ago
What's "Hrode-lgiaque"?
by Goomer Piles
Today at 09:01 PM
Opinions on Roland F130R
by Laerai
Today at 08:00 PM
M-Audio Oxygen 88 vs. StudioLogic Numa Compact
by snapdragon
Today at 07:02 PM
Sheet Music Retainers
by MargaretUK
Today at 05:20 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission