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theJourney, excellent posts!

If by "excellent" James you mean lecturing and holier-than-thou, I agree! And his posts are riddled with simplistic assumptions about the USA and rose-tinted nauseating rhetoric about the Netherlands. The anti-American snooty attitude of certain people really makes me quite angry.

And he labels me (and you) and all British people as "whinging Brits". The nation that is one of a tiny number of net contributors to the black hole of Europe where the EU institutions are completely undemocratic and unaccountable to the British mugs who are paying the bills. This is the Europe that pays farmers to grow crops no one eats - or pays them not to grow crops - and has artificially doubled the cost of food since Britain joined. And the Dutch have their snouts in the trough too with a vested interest in the continuation of the whole shebang, benefitting as they do by being the geographical host of many of those institutions.

Europe does look like a failing political experiment and the cost has been the huge withdrawal of personal freedoms, and that is my personal objection to it all. I make no comment about social provision or welfare or health-care in individual nation states other than to say there is more than one way to skin a cat and there is merit in different systems. But the political dogma that has driven all this change and the restrictions on national sovereignty and personal freedom is tragic.

Let's remember the EU was the brain child of Churchill among others, whose principle aim was to stop the Germans and French going to war again. A noble aim from a whinging Brit some would say. I see our 1000 years of unbroken continuity, history and heritage and proud status as an inventive and influential island nation state going down the toilet frankly. That's not all down to the EU, I know that - but it has played a significant part.

I'm learning a lot. Confused but still ... Maybe we should include North Korea somewhere. Wait, I just did.

Correcting misconception and myths being thoughtlessly repeated on this thread by pointing to facts can hardly be called anti-American. If you pointed out your son's poor school performance on his report card would that make you "anti-child" or just a concerned parent?

It wasn't a label, it was an observation of your behavior (and that of many of your countrymen, you are in good company). I don't see KJ doing any similar kind of whinging. To the contrary.

Tiny the Netherlands is also a net contributor to the EU and has consistenly punched above its weight for years.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...t-who-pays-what-and-how-it-is-spent.html

http://www.government.nl/issues/eur...ncial-contribution-to-the-european-union

Can you elaborate on which personal freedoms you have lost?


It is quite easy to claim that everything good about today's situation is because of the incomparable brilliance of the Brits but that the main reason why the UK has gone so much down the toilet is just because of the EU.

The world is a different place than it was just a few short decades ago. There are big blocks of mega-countries and economies that will determine the fate of their citizens. The liklihood that the UK, by going it alone, would become anything more than a has-been, cold island backwater, each year becoming more and more impoverished, is highly doubtful.

If I recall, no one allowed you to vote for WWI or WWII either. Personally, I prefer the "tyranny" of being forced to clean up the environment, harmonize trade and treat everyone fairly rather than to face the consequences of WWIII.

Rather than passively whinging about how undemocratic your EU government is, why not become responsible and accountable and start actually taking personal action to make it better?

@EssBrace

Lol, 1000 years of unbroken continuity, the things one has to read! Now, tell me it was unplanned and that irish, scotish or welsh were waiting for that Great Britain to happen with opened arms. There's no such thing as milenary countries. Modern nations (states) are completely different things, so keep that old illusory pride in its closet and throw the key.
Funny how some of you, as TJ pointed before, judge others not knowing your own history. And hey, I'm quite eurosceptical too and understand perfectly what you said about subventions (whose goal is very clever, but has developed a corrupt market)and about how they stoled the votes against being (partialy, don't forget)EU members.
Again, no system is superior to others, and we can argue without anger. Can´t we?


I don't think we are anti-american, or anti-british.Why to be here if it was the case? On the contrary, is the condescendent attitud of SOME britts and americans against everyone what is annoying, specially when you give lessons to the whole world but can't keep your house clean, or even know how many rooms it has. America and Brittain have their "B" side (we all have one) and everyone interested on it can find tones of information, music and literature. Is Tom Waits anti-american? Paul Auster? Carver? Is Hornby anti-brittish? Frears? Come on.
Have you ever been to Spain? I guess you have. Do you need me to say what is the (superficial) image that you britts give, here? Do you melt with spaniards, or buy in their shops, or drink in their bars? You usually don't. You have built "little Englands" wherever you go, as Germans did in Mallorca. Btw, when britts came here, germans and dutches moved. Noisy, rude, drunk...Do I go on saying topics?
So, who is against who?

How does everyone feel about religion?

I always find it astonishing, especially in a forum like this, where poeple from around the world are united by their love of music (violins in the background might be appropriate here :-) how small the drawers are, where every person of a country is put in.

One sentence i liked most here "A little snooty compared to latins, but very friendly and kind compared to germans". As a german i should be offended but it sadly shows only the inherent racism around us which most poeple won't even recognise as such. There is no "The German" as there is no "The American" or any other "The xxx".

You can say "Many Germans" or "Most Germans i had contact with". And if you would give it a chance you would see, that most of the time it's just the cultural misunderstanding, aequivalent to a dog wagging his tail to show he's friendly and a cat doing the same saying "get off, i'm angry".

So, continue to hack on foreign and domestic politics of different countries and give germany a bit heap of it, but don't think that every single person in a country is alike. That's just stupid.

I have been to Spain and no you don't need to elaborate about the behaviour of a particular kind of "Brit" as you and theJourney label us. That particular kind of Briton is almost always English and the yob/mob culture shows us (for I too am English but describe myself as British) in the worst possible light. The behaviour of the "English mob" abroad is often shocking and disgusting and frankly shameful. And I suppose I have to accept that in parts of Europe that is our image. Very sad and probably beyond changing now too.

You are true. I just wanted to make a joke about labels, but evidently it was the bad one. I apologize.
But, hey, I'm not racist at all (as a mediterranean, I have hundreds of bloods), I even didn't know there was a "race of germans", and the last ones who said so...Well, let's forget it.

I was referring more to his examination of 'socialism' in Holland and the US, rather than the 'whinging Brits' post (which I somehow missed first time around).

However, while I am not terribly keen on theJourney's somewhat condescending posting style, I do believe he raises some very interesting points.

For example, the suggestion that Obama is more conservative than Nixon sounds ridiculous initially. However, when you consider some of the policies that his administration have enacted (or maintained), while also taking into account that of Nixon's, the argument suddenly becomes rather more valid.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/03/1013155/-Nixon-more-liberal-than-Obama
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/obama-nixon/
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2011/07/22/Barack-Obama-The-Democrats-Richard-Nixon.aspx



Unfortunately, Obama is not the liberal, progressive president that so many Democrats hoped he would be, and so many Republicans believe that he is.

Cheers,
James
x

In my experience, the most annoying poeple i met, when on holiday, where germans. Whereas my encounters with "Brits" where all very nice.

Mabraman, no apology necessary! I'm sorry for the people that have to deal with drunk loutish English people abroad. They are a small minority but in parts of Spain it would be difficult to believe that they are a minority I would imagine.

Yes, fair point. Someone else (was it gv?) said earlier that you can't impose understanding of one nation's politics onto another. The reality in the US when you have two houses, each with different political majorities and each with the ability to delay or frustrate the President's plans makes it difficult to draw parallels.

Another example would be foreign observers of business in the House of Commons with all the shouting and paper waving and apparent lack of respect. It would seem to be a circus but there is a kind of point to it....

Must be all my German blood.

Bump...

One way to unite some cultures (I didn't know about this "fluid piano", did you?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vblUFZOs6a0

Our common hobbies or sometimes even destiny - music, instruments, interests in cultural history, in technology and yes even industry and global market - should teach us: there are more common in us throughout country boarders and continents than what separates us by our nationality or political views.

Similarly: no social class was prone of male chauvinism - but even the most ardent male chauvinist aristocrats in every society in history wouldn't deny that women in their own social class had much more in common with themselves than males in other classes.

This could settle some issues here.

There are issues which are just too complex to understand without a higher economical studium. Such a question is e.g. which country pulls more benefits out of the EU or from the Euro. Germany is a netto nominal contibutor, but generally regarded as a winner by their membership (EU and Euro zone). Had they the Deutsche Mark, it's value would be 2 EUR by now (at the beginning 1 EUR=2DM) and the German economy wouldn't suffer competetive pressure. (But how popular it would be.) Just the opposite is happening in the Meditterranain countries, they economies were in balance up to now, without todays crisis, could they have devaluated their currencies.

Justa classical other example: if You let people work longer, are than the older employees taking simply jobs from the young, or helping to generate new jobs? (Or with immigrants).

If You take democracy itself, it is perhaps the holy grail but not holy at all. Opinions for even basic questions and individual voter's decision are based on oversimplified lay answers - is that not what lastly all political elections and decisions governs?

Political scenery with much media hype and other political marketing is just what is before the curtain, what counts is the backstage. I couldn't imagine that they would ever succeed with such an unpopular Euro launch project (in almost all participating countries) ever would take place - but it was decided and pushed through and was running astonishingly smooth - until the last big economical crisis.

Our opinion is governed by the media, if You are in a specific country, than complete other issues are drawing your affinity and let you polarize your views.

I am better off, when I focus on my music and other deeper interests where I have the power of acting. Political issues deserve my activities only when I have the chance to participate in politics full time in a role of a real player. (Like in soccer: few player, many fans but who have much illusion about their importance.)

Geez - is this Piano World or the
"The Daily Worker" - enuff of the
pinko commie crap - "Journey" has
been smoking WAAAY to much of his
own supply...

I hesitate to ask what kind of crowd you might move in, where the epithet "pinko commie" is still in active use. Last time I heard it IIRC was from Archie Bunker's mouth circa 1970.

Way to raise the level of discourse dude.

Hey, dude, It's called sarcasm "dude".....what a rube.

And, Dude - how is the "dude" crowd any better than
the "Bunker" crowd, dude.

Wow, dude.

ps. Pinko Commie is a classic "Seinfeld" quote, Dude.