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#2064901 - 04/15/13 10:08 AM Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ?
Kristina1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 123
Loc: UK
Has anyone listened to Haendel’s “Dies Irae” on youtube?
My own search for it was unfortunately without any success.

I have read that it is in his “Saul”, possibly in an Aria ?

I would be very appreciative if anyone could please tell me where I can find it and hopefully listen to it on youtube.

Thanks from Kristina

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#2064938 - 04/15/13 11:26 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia, USA
Hmm, I'm not sure there is such a thing. The Dies Irae is an old poem / prayer as you probably know. It's sometimes part of a requiem mass (Mozart's and Verdi's are probably the most famous.) Handel didn't write a requiem and I don't believe the Dies Irae prayer forms part of Saul or Messiah.

Good luck!
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  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

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#2064945 - 04/15/13 11:39 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
I agree that the OP is probably thinking of something else. As Andy points out, Dies Irae is usually a sequence in the Requiem Mass, and I am not aware than Handel wrote much Latin church music much less a full setting of the mass. There is also a traditional plainchant melody associated with Dies Irae that has been quoted by many composers in other works, but again I'm not aware that Handel used the melody anywhere. The only "funeral" thing that comes to mind from Handel's Saul is the famous Dead March in Act III.
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#2065065 - 04/15/13 04:18 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
Kristina1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 123
Loc: UK
Thanks for your kind replies, Andy Platt and packa.
On youtube I have listened to Haendel's Death March in "Saul"
and the "Dies Irae" has not been included
in the recordings I have listened to.
I was reading that the beginning of "Dies Irae":
C,D, C, A, B, G (or G-sharp), A, A...
was “entwined” by Haendel in his “Saul”
in an Aria and I have tried to locate this Aria on youtube
but unfortunately I had no luck.
If anyone can help me further to locate this Aria
I would be very grateful.
Thanks again from Kristina.


Edited by Kristina1 (04/15/13 04:37 PM)

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#2065114 - 04/15/13 06:07 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
So, you're looking for a musical quotation within another piece of the plainchant melody traditionally associated with Dies Irae rather than a musical setting of the text itself. It's certainly possible that something like this appears somewhere in Handel since that motif has appeared in a lot of places.

However, the notes you suggest (C, D, C, A, B, ...) aren't quite the melodic contour I usually associate with Dies Irae. See the Wikipedia article for "Dies Irae" for the neumatic notation of the tune and a transcription to modern notation. Perhaps we're looking for C4, B3, C4, A3, B3, ...?
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Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718

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#2065161 - 04/15/13 08:22 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Maybe a group of scholars would be better equipped to address this question that the usual suspects hanging around here. wink

(It does make me want to stick an oratorio in the CD player, though.)
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#2065186 - 04/15/13 09:38 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7515
Loc: New York City
Composers throw in slight variations to make the theme fit better with their harmonies, but generally you will always have the following 7-note core sequence: C-B-C-A-B-G-A, comprised of only skips and stepwise motion, in any octave, to begin the tune.
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Polyphonist

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#2065354 - 04/16/13 05:14 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Polyphonist]
Kristina1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 123
Loc: UK
Thank you again, packa for your kind reply,
Perhaps your suggestions C4, B3, C4, A3, B3
are better associated with the “Dies Irae”;
I have only read that Haendel “entwined” his own variation
C,D, C, A, B, G (or G-sharp), A, A...in his “Saul”.

Thanks malkin for your thoughts.
Problem is how ...and where... do I find a Haendel-scholar...?

Thank you, Polyphonist,
I don’t yet know enough about composers to answer you,
but I will bear it in mind.

Kind regards and thanks again from Kristina.

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#2065401 - 04/16/13 08:27 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11440
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Why not just buy a copy of a recording of Saul? Or see if your local library or university has one you can check out?

You can hear samples on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Handel-Saul-George-Frederick/dp/B0000SWNHU


Edited by Morodiene (04/16/13 08:27 AM)
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#2065553 - 04/16/13 01:05 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3462
Maybe you mean Lully? He has a lovely Dies Irae

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#2065856 - 04/17/13 05:27 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: wouter79]
Kristina1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 123
Loc: UK
Thank you Morodiene, for the suggestion
and thank you, wouter 79 for your kind efforts
to put on Lully’s “Dies Irae”.

The book I read mentioned particularly Haendel’s “Dies Irae”
in an Aria of his “Saul”.

Kind regards and thanks from Kristina.

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#2066215 - 04/17/13 08:37 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
Kristina, this is a bit of a stab in the dark, as I've never heard or read any reference to this quote in Saul, but if it's anywhere I'd say it would be in act III, in the witch of Endor bit where she sings her spooky song. smile The accompaniment in the orchestra has a little recurring figure (down a semitone and back up again, sometimes down a tone and back up, like CBC, or AGA). This hints at the beginning of Dies Irae I suppose, but I wouldn't exactly call it a quotation myself. Find a recording of act III (scene II, with the witch of Endor) and see what you think.

By the way, what was the book which mentioned this?
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#2066382 - 04/18/13 06:02 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: currawong]
Kristina1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 123
Loc: UK
Thank you very much, currawong,
I have just listened to the Scene of the Witch
from Haendel’s "Saul" on youtube, performed by the Concerto Koeln
and it is exactly what I was searching for,
it is also very lovely to listen to. Thank you very much!

I was hesitant to “take the risk” and listen to Haendel’s "Saul"
because not long ago I visited the Haendel Museum in London
and they showed a video-recording of a Haendel Opera.
The "representation" of Haendel’s Opera shown on this video
was not what I would have expected in a respectable house
like the former home of Haendel in London -
now supposedly a Museum dedicated to Haendel and his music...
Had I not been brought up with such good manners,
I would have instantly asked for my entrance money back there and then...
...but as it is I just left the Museum in disgust...
...and after such a shocking experience
I am hesitant to offer my trust so easily again ...

I am very grateful that you have located Haendel’s “Dies Irae” in his "Saul"
and I thank you very much for it.

The book which mentions Haendel’s “Dies Irae” in his "Saul"
is “Muzio Clementi, his music & transcriptions” in the archives
of the Bodleian Library at Oxford University.

Thanks again from Kristina.


Edited by Kristina1 (04/18/13 06:05 AM)

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#2066404 - 04/18/13 07:33 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
Glad I was able to help. smile
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Du holde Kunst...

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#2066408 - 04/18/13 07:35 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: currawong]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: currawong
Glad I was able to help. smile


We need to invent a special ABF medal for that kind of help. Quite a find!
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebestrume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

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#2066411 - 04/18/13 07:49 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11440
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Kristina1
Thank you very much, currawong,
I have just listened to the Scene of the Witch
from Haendel’s "Saul" on youtube, performed by the Concerto Koeln
and it is exactly what I was searching for,
it is also very lovely to listen to. Thank you very much!

I was hesitant to “take the risk” and listen to Haendel’s "Saul"
because not long ago I visited the Haendel Museum in London
and they showed a video-recording of a Haendel Opera.
The "representation" of Haendel’s Opera shown on this video
was not what I would have expected in a respectable house
like the former home of Haendel in London -
now supposedly a Museum dedicated to Haendel and his music...
Had I not been brought up with such good manners,
I would have instantly asked for my entrance money back there and then...
...but as it is I just left the Museum in disgust...
...and after such a shocking experience
I am hesitant to offer my trust so easily again ...



Just a side comment here...opera is not what it used to be, sadly. Some of the singing, acting, and sets are just atrocious. I'm not surprised you wanted your money back! I think more audience members need to learn how to "boo" and get up and walk out.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2066426 - 04/18/13 08:09 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Morodiene]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Just a side comment here...opera is not what it used to be, sadly. Some of the singing, acting, and sets are just atrocious. I'm not surprised you wanted your money back! I think more audience members need to learn how to "boo" and get up and walk out.


I have a distinct impression that you could got back 30, 60, 90, 120 years and find almost identical comments written wink

I can't really comment though, I've only been to a handful of operas in my life and, since my teens, they've all been relatively small companies who do more "traditional" performances that are probably just what you would expect.
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebestrume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

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#2066433 - 04/18/13 08:27 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Andy Platt]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11440
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Andy Platt
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Just a side comment here...opera is not what it used to be, sadly. Some of the singing, acting, and sets are just atrocious. I'm not surprised you wanted your money back! I think more audience members need to learn how to "boo" and get up and walk out.


I have a distinct impression that you could got back 30, 60, 90, 120 years and find almost identical comments written wink

I can't really comment though, I've only been to a handful of operas in my life and, since my teens, they've all been relatively small companies who do more "traditional" performances that are probably just what you would expect.


Probably you can find critics everywhere at any time saying "it's not what it used to be." The problem is people who don't know what it used to be don't like it either and just don't go.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2066664 - 04/18/13 05:33 PM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: Kristina1]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
I don't mind productions which transpose the setting (in time or place) as long as there's a point in doing it that I get, and as long as it works. If it's just done so the producer can show how trendy he can be, I'll probably give it a miss. Sometimes it can work, but it needs real talent and vision, not just "let's do something different and shocking!"
As for the standard of singing and acting, I have no complaints about the last few Opera Australia productions I've been to. Fabulous!
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Du holde Kunst...

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#2067091 - 04/19/13 11:54 AM Re: Haendel’s “Dies Irae” ? [Re: currawong]
Kristina1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 123
Loc: UK
Thanks again, currawong.
I agree with Andy Platt that we need to invent
a special ABF award for that kind of help
which is so very much appreciated.
If such an award exists I would also gladly mention
another member who has also been very helpful.

Thank you, Morodiene, I agree with you,
Opera is not what it used to be,
especially some of the singing and decency.
Let’s hope some of the organizers realize that one day
because that would make some music lovers come back
and listen to Opera again.

I also agree with you, currawong.
I don’t mind productions which transpose the setting
into a different era, because I feel that Opera and/or music
often describes human situations which are as old as mankind
because human nature & resulting situations
have hardly ever changed over the years
as long as the interpretation is suitable for a family audience.

Thank you all again from Kristina.

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